Business And Economy Archive
Thread: DEV thinking equates LOOT to MERCHANTS and High Prices.
aries_liak wrote:From my point of view this is a rather simple topic being overblown.Pricing has always been an issue for the developers that they could never agree on. Since no agreement could be reached the matter was simply ignored until they all concluded that prices on goods had started to become hyper-inflated. The loot table become the cruix of the problem driving prices for everything up. This is debatable but in my opinion it is the case. People turned to it as a source of income. As more people realized the ease of which looting something valuable could change there ingame fortunes it became a plague on the economy as all players began seeking out items to turn around and sell for large sums of credits. Holocron's initial release showed a proactive step to end the rampant inflation one item caused unfortunately creating another series of economic missteps by then creating hologrinders.They just recently began addressing inflationary causing loot with the adjustments being made to Krayts and POI's and nerfing solo-grouping. These changes are meant to slow the flow of credits from game to player and player to player.They then added adk's and 30K resource kits to stop large transactions from occurring all the time for high end weapons and meats and hides.I think crafters of all skill level will benefit from exposure on the baazar. Price wars occurring seem a little far fetched considering the differences in crafting skills and resources. It should help those just getting started and lower the prices of everyday goods by allowing crafters a better snapshot of what is available for resources galaxy wide at that moment. Everyone not just combat benefits from crafter vendors being viewable.
There's a lot less difference in classes like Architect, Artisan, Droid Engineer, Tailor and Ranger.
bluejanus wrote:
EdOWar wrote:
What I got from Lord_Pall's statement isn't so much that the Devs blame merchants for high loot prices, but that the Devs have implemented galaxy-wide searches as a tool to manipulate the player economy. This explains a couple of things: 1) Why all vendors will be able to register, not just Advertising IV or Master Merchant (wouldn't do much good if it only applied to a minority of the player base) and 2) Why they have seemingly ignored merchant's concerns about price wars (after all, that seems to be their intent with this change). And I think they will ultimately fail in their attempt (I posted my reasons why in the other vendor change poll, I won't rehash them here).
To me, the larger issue isn't the galaxy-wide search in-and-of itself, but the attempts by the Devs to manipulate a player-regulated economy, even if they are doing so indirectly. When this attempt fails, NPC vendors may be in our future.
Slim Vargo, Corbantis
When they introduced the galaxy search, it was so it was easy for players to find what they wanted. I'm sure they got many complaints about how hard it was to find what they wanted and how much they hated shopping. Since I'm sure most of the design team are men, they could relate to the hating of shopping.
The adjustments are from the uproar about how it'll affect the economy. I don't think the galaxy search is being used as an economy tweaker at least from the dev point of view.
Not as a direct economy tweaker...but they may be counting on galaxy-wide searching to help drop prices. So it's an indirect form of economic manipulation. If you consider that Episode III will be out in May, along with the new expansion, they are probably anticipating an influx of new players. This is just a theory on my part, but the Devsmay be trying to bring prices down in order to makeSWG more "newb-friendly" when (if) the new players show up.
It would explain a few things that didn't make sense to me before. For example:why wasn't this ability tied to at least Merchant Advertising IV?Galaxy-wide searching isclearly much more powerful than Planetary Advertising. One possible answer: if you're trying to manipulate the economy through galaxy-wide searching, it won't have much effect if it only impacts a minority of the player base.
Granted, this is all just conjecture on my part. But it ties a lot of loose ends together.
/dons tinfoil hat 
Slim Vargo, Corbantis
Phaelyn wrote:
From the Stratics HoC Chat:
Brannoc: *[WH]-Banana-SillyWalker* What is the opinion of the Development Team on reducing the Demand for Jedi Power Crystals and Pearls, by making them easy to collect this will therefore make the markets elasticity to change and therefore bring down prices for low level Jedi ?
Lord_Pall: I love price elasticity.
Lord_Pall: Prices dropping are the bane of a lot of merchants, but for average players it's a great thing.
Lord_Pall: Having items be more affordable across the board is not a negative in my view
...
He blames MERCHANTS for LOOT costs. And that's why we have mechanics going in game now to minimize the Merchant class. NOT because Chef foods or Armors are too high - Look again at the question and answer. Player asks about high LOOT item prices, and then a Dev says prices dropping are the bane of OUR existence.
The completely UN funny thing about it is that MERCHANTS aren't the ones out looting, and selling high end Loots via the Trade Forums.
Lord_Pall: Having items be more affordable across the board is not a negative in my view"
Elurin wrote:
I don't want to minimize merchants and crafters, and I do know that I will get a lot of flames for this. so I've put on my special fire resistant pantaloons.
a game full of crafters/merchants doesn't make for a really fun game, and I would make a very generalized bet that the number of people who only want to play the game for the crafting/merchant mechanics is a very small number. Two things drive people to craft, money or equip for an alt box/profession, and name exposure. I can't imagine that there are a ton of people out there that actually love the process of crafting.
My point is this. The game can't be viable and survive on crafting alone, and people who adventure really don't like the when they have to watch their coin/credit count go down, so my basic premise is this. People who adventure would just as soon not have to deal with buying things. They want their armor/weapons/equipment to get better and at the same time, they want their coun count to always go up.
As much as merchants/crafters don't like it cheap prices are good for a long term viable game environment, which is in everyone's interest.
Flame on.
I like to craft. I actually enjoy meeting my customers and suppliers.
If this game becomes a FPS, or like WoW you'll see far more quit than have already, the player driven economy has kept more folks here than you could ever imagine.
Also you'd be surprised at what they consider the average quality item. I'd say that you own nothing that is average, but if they ever went to an NPC system, you would get average, not the stuff us crafters make that takes time and energy.
EdOWar wrote:
bluejanus wrote:
EdOWar wrote:What I got from Lord_Pall's statement isn't so much that the Devs blame merchants for high loot prices, but that the Devs have implemented galaxy-wide searches as a tool to manipulate the player economy. This explains a couple of things: 1) Why all vendors will be able to register, not just Advertising IV or Master Merchant (wouldn't do much good if it only applied to a minority of the player base) and 2) Why they have seemingly ignored merchant's concerns about price wars (after all, that seems to be their intent with this change). And I think they will ultimately fail in their attempt (I posted my reasons why in the other vendor change poll, I won't rehash them here).To me, the larger issue isn't the galaxy-wide search in-and-of itself, but the attempts by the Devs to manipulate a player-regulated economy, even if they are doing so indirectly. When this attempt fails, NPC vendors may be in our future.Slim Vargo, Corbantis
When they introduced the galaxy search, it was so it was easy for players to find what they wanted. I'm sure they got many complaints about how hard it was to find what they wanted and how much they hated shopping. Since I'm sure most of the design team are men, they could relate to the hating of shopping.
The adjustments are from the uproar about how it'll affect the economy. I don't think the galaxy search is being used as an economy tweaker at least from the dev point of view.Not as a direct economy tweaker...but they may be counting on galaxy-wide searching to help drop prices. So it's an indirect form of economic manipulation. If you consider that Episode III will be out in May, along with the new expansion, they are probably anticipating an influx of new players. This is just a theory on my part, but the Devs may be trying to bring prices down in order to make SWG more "newb-friendly" when (if) the new players show up.
It would explain a few things that didn't make sense to me before. For example: why wasn't this ability tied to at least Merchant Advertising IV? Galaxy-wide searching is clearly much more powerful than Planetary Advertising. One possible answer: if you're trying to manipulate the economy through galaxy-wide searching, it won't have much effect if it only impacts a minority of the player base.
Granted, this is all just conjecture on my part. But it ties a lot of loose ends together.
/dons tinfoil hat
Slim Vargo, Corbantis
To make the game more newbie friendly, they're going to drop the prices on all the high level equipment that's being made? Newbies have to use equipment that's basic or middle which hardly anyone makes. How does the galaxy search system encourage crafters to make the lower and middle end gear?
bluejanus wrote:
To make the game more newbie friendly, they're going to drop the prices on all the high level equipment that's being made? Newbies have to use equipment that's basic or middle which hardly anyone makes. How does the galaxy search system encourage crafters to make the lower and middle end gear?
Cutedge wrote:
EdOWar wrote:
I'm not anyone else's crafting slave.
EdOWar wrote:
Crafting is what keeps me in SWG...
So wait, you charge because you don't like having to craft for other people, but crafting for other people is what keeps you in SWG?
Message Edited by Cutedge on 03-17-2005 12:09 PM
bluejanus wrote:To make the game more newbie friendly, they're going to drop the prices on all the high level equipment that's being made? Newbies have to use equipment that's basic or middle which hardly anyone makes. How does the galaxy search system encourage crafters to make the lower and middle end gear?
*hopes he's done the qote box right*
I think the galactic vendor search is going to help immensely on the newbie experience. I can't count the times I've had to drive all over tatooine to find that blasted DL44 pistol, that would put bread on my table and help me advance, or that laser carbine that is a must for a carbineer. If people suddenly can sell items that cost alot less to make and make a profit on them, it would add to the diversity of sales and not just on the high end weapons like T21 rifles, Power Hammers and Batons. The same goes for armour - A new player would be thrilled to find a set of maybe 30% ubese armour at a low price that would help him train up his levels faster, so he eventually can afford new gear. Same goes for clothing. I could keep on going here
However, with the galactic vender search in place, I think it's time to take away the 75k credits newbies begin with and take away the X31 speeder - there should be enough competition on the market on commodities like weapons and transport, that you'd have to be a pretty dumb newbie not to be able to afford these things within a week.
*remembers what it was like to start out in Mos Entha with only 250c, a CDEF pistol and a set of marksman newbie clothes to his name*
MeciniaLua wrote:
Elurin wrote:
I don't want to minimize merchants and crafters, and I do know that I will get a lot of flames for this. so I've put on my special fire resistant pantaloons.
a game full of crafters/merchants doesn't make for a really fun game, and I would make a very generalized bet that the number of people who only want to play the game for the crafting/merchant mechanics is a very small number. Two things drive people to craft, money or equip for an alt box/profession, and name exposure. I can't imagine that there are a ton of people out there that actually love the process of crafting.
My point is this. The game can't be viable and survive on crafting alone, and people who adventure really don't like the when they have to watch their coin/credit count go down, so my basic premise is this. People who adventure would just as soon not have to deal with buying things. They want their armor/weapons/equipment to get better and at the same time, they want their coun count to always go up.
As much as merchants/crafters don't like it cheap prices are good for a long term viable game environment, which is in everyone's interest.
Flame on.I like to craft. I actually enjoy meeting my customers and suppliers.
If this game becomes a FPS, or like WoW you'll see far more quit than have already, the player driven economy has kept more folks here than you could ever imagine.
Also you'd be surprised at what they consider the average quality item. I'd say that you own nothing that is average, but if they ever went to an NPC system, you would get average, not the stuff us crafters make that takes time and energy.
You're correct.. you would see a lot of people quit. You'd also see a lot of people, more than enough to compensate, giving it another look.
Elurin wrote:
MeciniaLua wrote:
I like to craft. I actually enjoy meeting my customers and suppliers.
If this game becomes a FPS, or like WoW you'll see far more quit than have already, the player driven economy has kept more folks here than you could ever imagine.
Also you'd be surprised at what they consider the average quality item. I'd say that you own nothing that is average, but if they ever went to an NPC system, you would get average, not the stuff us crafters make that takes time and energy.
You're correct.. you would see a lot of people quit. You'd also see a lot of people, more than enough to compensate, giving it another look.
I wound't be so sure about that. Most of the dedicated crafters have been here for a long time. They stay because of SWG's player-based economy and player-crafting system. These are players who pay their $15.00 month after month, many since the game started. These 'adventurer' players you mentionmight give SWG another look, but chances are good they'd be gone again in a month or two, when the next big MMORPG comes out.
The player-driven economy is what sets SWG apart from every other MMORPG on the market. This is really what makes SWG unique. Why turn SWG into "WoW-in-Space", when people can just go play WoW and get the real deal? The Devs screw with the economy at their own peril.
Slim Vargo, Corbantis
On Lowca, there are some large guilds, with guild supported Architects, or Chefs, or Weaponsmiths, etc...that continually provide their crafters with enough raw materials (and good quality) that the cost to produce market competitive items is far lower than mine. Again, my fear, and the fear of other crafters I know is that these "mega crafters" will be able to easily undercut the rest of us and will essentially drive us out of business while they can still maintain a level (smaller, but still decent) of profitability. This is basically the same impact as Wal-mart moving into town and putting out of business all the small shops selling items.
One of my friends, who is a veteran player and Chef and Weaponsmith is already planning on closing up shop, and mabye even cancelling his account over this issue. If this happens, I also may consider cancelling that account since I opened up one, JUST so I could become an architect.
Now, were the DEV's to only make this a feature that would show availability of items, vs. price as well, then I see it as less negative. I like others have been frustrated looking for that ONE thing and driving around all over several planets for hours or days hoping to find a vendor that had it. To intoduce the price for that item in the search however, does nothing but drive everyone to the lowest cost vendor and with JTL, that is VERY easy to do now. It will have the initial effect of dropping prices in the overall economy as those of us smaller businesses struggle to stay afloat, but I can see that this will quickly drive them to close up shop.
bluejanus wrote:
Puertoriqueno wrote:
Scudder wrote:
As someone pointed out to me in your earlier thread... a merchant is anyone who sells anything... it's not JUST a profession in this game. So yes, merchants ARE out looting and prices of loot DOES affect merchants.
To an extent....but I think that loot prices are effected more by market demand than current in-game market....and by this I mean the prices that merchants sell high-end loot. I find that most of the high-end loot in the game is sold in the trade forums instead of in-game....but you guys can correct me if I am wrong of course.
The devs said only 10% of the game is registered on the forums. Since way more than 10% of the gaming population participates in high level content, I'd have to disagree with you that the majority of high level loot is sold on the trade forums.
I stand corrected then. I didn't know that
Elurin wrote:
MeciniaLua wrote:
Elurin wrote:
I don't want to minimize merchants and crafters, and I do know that I will get a lot of flames for this. so I've put on my special fire resistant pantaloons.
a game full of crafters/merchants doesn't make for a really fun game, and I would make a very generalized bet that the number of people who only want to play the game for the crafting/merchant mechanics is a very small number. Two things drive people to craft, money or equip for an alt box/profession, and name exposure. I can't imagine that there are a ton of people out there that actually love the process of crafting.
My point is this. The game can't be viable and survive on crafting alone, and people who adventure really don't like the when they have to watch their coin/credit count go down, so my basic premise is this. People who adventure would just as soon not have to deal with buying things. They want their armor/weapons/equipment to get better and at the same time, they want their coun count to always go up.
As much as merchants/crafters don't like it cheap prices are good for a long term viable game environment, which is in everyone's interest.
Flame on.
I like to craft. I actually enjoy meeting my customers and suppliers.
If this game becomes a FPS, or like WoW you'll see far more quit than have already, the player driven economy has kept more folks here than you could ever imagine.
Also you'd be surprised at what they consider the average quality item. I'd say that you own nothing that is average, but if they ever went to an NPC system, you would get average, not the stuff us crafters make that takes time and energy.
You're correct.. you would see a lot of people quit. You'd also see a lot of people, more than enough to compensate, giving it another look.