Business And Economy Archive
Thread: DEV thinking equates LOOT to MERCHANTS and High Prices.
Elurin wrote:
EdOWar wrote:
Elurin wrote:
I don't want to minimize merchants and crafters, and I do know that I will get a lot of flames for this. so I've put on my special fire resistant pantaloons.
a game full of crafters/merchants doesn't make for a really fun game, and I would make a very generalized bet that the number of people who only want to play the game for the crafting/merchant mechanics is a very small number. Two things drive people to craft, money or equip for an alt box/profession, and name exposure. I can't imagine that there are a ton of people out there that actually love the process of crafting.
My point is this. The game can't be viable and survive on crafting alone, and people who adventure really don't like the when they have to watch their coin/credit count go down, so my basic premise is this. People who adventure would just as soon not have to deal with buying things. They want their armor/weapons/equipment to get better and at the same time, they want their coun count to always go up.
As much as merchants/crafters don't like it cheap prices are good for a long term viable game environment, which is in everyone's interest.
Flame on.
So, combat characters get to be rich, but crafters don't? Crafters have subsidize everyone else's fun in the game? Fuk that. Combat characters have plenty of ways to make good coin. It's not my problem if they are too dumb or lazy to figure it out.
If I work my ass off to make a high quality item that people want, you can bet I'm going to try to get as much as I can for it. I'm not anyone else's crafting slave.
Crafting is what keeps me in SWG...not combat. If combat is all I cared about, I'd be playing WoW (oh god, what a crappy game that is for crafters) or team-based shooters. I put more effort into what I do than any combat character puts into what they do, so I think I deserve a decent reward for my efforts.
Slim Vargo, Corbantis
Yes, that was what I said. Fully knowing that merchants/crafters wouldn't like it. Do you remember the merchant/crafter focus of the movies? I missed that part. Star Wars is about war and power and adventure..
Like I said.. combat classes would just as soon not have to buy anything... ask anyone.. ask yourself.. if it is a good value you don't mind too much, if it is free it is wonderful (as a combat class) if you could loot the best weapon in the game.. as a combat class, you're perfectly ok with it.
What you're describing is Star Wars Battlefront, not Star Wars Galaxies. Players that only want to fight without having to buy stuff, who want to really get into the 'Wars' aspect of Star Wars can play that game. Galaxies is an MMORPG, with lots of players with lots of different playing styles. MMORPGs usually attempt to create communities...that is why every MMORPG has an ingame economy of some sort, whether crafting based liked SWG or NPC vendor based like WoW (or somewhere in between). If it's all about the combat classes, why not convert SWG to Battlefront and be done with it?
Slim Vargo, Corbantis
Elurin wrote:
I don't want to minimize merchants and crafters, and I do know that I will get a lot of flames for this. so I've put on my special fire resistant pantaloons.
a game full of crafters/merchants doesn't make for a really fun game, and I would make a very generalized bet that the number of people who only want to play the game for the crafting/merchant mechanics is a very small number. Two things drive people to craft, money or equip for an alt box/profession, and name exposure. I can't imagine that there are a ton of people out there that actually love the process of crafting.
My point is this. The game can't be viable and survive on crafting alone, and people who adventure really don't like the when they have to watch their coin/credit count go down, so my basic premise is this. People who adventure would just as soon not have to deal with buying things. They want their armor/weapons/equipment to get better and at the same time, they want their coun count to always go up.
As much as merchants/crafters don't like it cheap prices are good for a long term viable game environment, which is in everyone's interest.
Flame on.
Scudder wrote:
As someone pointed out to me in your earlier thread... a merchant is anyone who sells anything... it's not JUST a profession in this game. So yes, merchants ARE out looting and prices of loot DOES affect merchants.
To an extent....but I think that loot prices are effected more by market demand than current in-game market....and by this I mean the prices that merchants sell high-end loot. I find that most of the high-end loot in the game is sold in the trade forums instead of in-game....but you guys can correct me if I am wrong of course.
Agreed, but like other games based on an established commercial genre there is a certain expectation from an established fan base. This is the reason that most developers, especially in the case of MMORGS, avoid games based on fictional franchises with an established fanbase. It is difficult to create a game that appeals to both MMORG players and current fans of the genre.
EdOWar wrote:
What you're describing is Star Wars Battlefront, not Star Wars Galaxies. Players that only want to fight without having to buy stuff, who want to really get into the 'Wars' aspect of Star Wars can play that game. Galaxies is an MMORPG, with lots of players with lots of different playing styles. MMORPGs usually attempt to create communities...that is why every MMORPG has an ingame economy of some sort, whether crafting based liked SWG or NPC vendor based like WoW (or somewhere in between). If it's all about the combat classes, why not convert SWG to Battlefront and be done with it?
Slim Vargo, Corbantis
What you're describing is Star Wars Battlefront, not Star Wars Galaxies. Players that only want to fight without having to buy stuff, who want to really get into the 'Wars' aspect of Star Wars can play that game. Galaxies is an MMORPG, with lots of players with lots of different playing styles. MMORPGs usually attempt to create communities...that is why every MMORPG has an ingame economy of some sort, whether crafting based liked SWG or NPC vendor based like WoW (or somewhere in between). If it's all about the combat classes, why not convert SWG to Battlefront and be done with it?
Slim Vargo, Corbantis
What I'm saying is that they would never come out with a game called Star Wars Crafting, where all you did was make stuff, and npc's came and bought things from you, and all you did was make stuff and accumulate money. It simply would have no viability
crafting/merchants/game economy.. they are all there to support adventuring.. the make a rich and diverse community from a wholistic point of view, but the bottom line is that the game is about adventure first.
For the vast majority of players, crafting/merchants/entertaining is all a big waste of time. Is that to say they don't enjoy good conversation with a dancer in a cantina, no.. but would they want to entertain.. not a chance, and the buffbots are proof positive that entertainment is just a harsh reality that adventurers would just as soon do without, and most people don't really find fun.
SOE/Lucas stated they didn't want everquest in space.. I say.. the game would be more successful as an MMORPG if they had made it that way.. does that mean you would play it.. no.. but to the adventurer.. that would be ok.. not that we wouldn't want you around to interact with, but we certainly would be ok not having to buy stuff from you.
And you talk about me being a troll? There is no need to be so nasty all the time simply because people do not agree with you. You make alot of good arguments, but they are polluted with rhetoric and insults.
Cafa wrote:
Actually, this would work for me! The only reason the rebellion won in the movies is that Lucas wrote the script that way. Given the current playing field of SWG with all the carebear controls turned off, and NOT including AT-STs, the Imperials would irradicate rebels throughout this game.
/stirring the pot!
Fivo Asia
Message Edited by Puertoriqueno on 03-17-2005 02:39 PM
Puertoriqueno wrote:
And you talk about me being a troll? There is no need to be so nasty all the time simply because people do not agree with you. You make alot of good arguments, but they are polluted with rhetoric and insults.
Cafa wrote:
Actually, this would work for me! The only reason the rebellion won in the movies is that Lucas wrote the script that way. Given the current playing field of SWG with all the carebear controls turned off, and NOT including AT-STs, the Imperials would irradicate rebels throughout this game.
/stirring the pot!
Fivo Asia
Message Edited by Puertoriqueno on 03-17-2005 02:39 PM
Sorry my rebel comment was out of line. Other than that, please indicate where I have insulted anyone here in this thread.
Fivo Asia
Elurin wrote:
What you're describing is Star Wars Battlefront, not Star Wars Galaxies. Players that only want to fight without having to buy stuff, who want to really get into the 'Wars' aspect of Star Wars can play that game. Galaxies is an MMORPG, with lots of players with lots of different playing styles. MMORPGs usually attempt to create communities...that is why every MMORPG has an ingame economy of some sort, whether crafting based liked SWG or NPC vendor based like WoW (or somewhere in between). If it's all about the combat classes, why not convert SWG to Battlefront and be done with it?
Slim Vargo, Corbantis
What I'm saying is that they would never come out with a game called Star Wars Crafting, where all you did was make stuff, and npc's came and bought things from you, and all you did was make stuff and accumulate money. It simply would have no viability
crafting/merchants/game economy.. they are all there to support adventuring.. the make a rich and diverse community from a wholistic point of view, but the bottom line is that the game is about adventure first.
For the vast majority of players, crafting/merchants/entertaining is all a big waste of time. Is that to say they don't enjoy good conversation with a dancer in a cantina, no.. but would they want to entertain.. not a chance, and the buffbots are proof positive that entertainment is just a harsh reality that adventurers would just as soon do without, and most people don't really find fun.
SOE/Lucas stated they didn't want everquest in space.. I say.. the game would be more successful as an MMORPG if they had made it that way.. does that mean you would play it.. no.. but to the adventurer.. that would be ok.. not that we wouldn't want you around to interact with, but we certainly would be ok not having to buy stuff from you.
Okay, I see your point now. And I guess I would have to agree with you, for the most part. If you analyze what crafters do, they almost allprovide goods tothe combat professions, either directly or indirectly. SWG is basically a big war-time economy.
None-the-less, player-crafting is how things are made in SWG (at least for the moment), and there are a good number of players who enjoy the crafting/business/economic aspect of the game (more than I think you suspect). And as long as SWG has player-crafting as it's economic foundation, and as long as thereplayers who choose the crafting play-style, I think they deserve a decent reward for their efforts, no less than combat players get a reward for killing hard MOBs. They certainly don't deserve to be shafted for the benefit of the combat classes, even if combat/adventure is the central focus of this (or any) MMORPG. My play style is no more or less valid than a combat player's style.
I think crafters are more likely to be loyal long-term customers than EQ style "adventurers", many of whom will onlybe hereuntil the next new MMORPG comes out. SOE screws with crafters at it's own peril.
Slim Vargo, Corbantis
Cafa wrote:
Puertoriqueno wrote:
And you talk about me being a troll? There is no need to be so nasty all the time simply because people do not agree with you. You make alot of good arguments, but they are polluted with rhetoric and insults.
Cafa wrote:
Actually, this would work for me! The only reason the rebellion won in the movies is that Lucas wrote the script that way. Given the current playing field of SWG with all the carebear controls turned off, and NOT including AT-STs, the Imperials would irradicate rebels throughout this game.
/stirring the pot!
Fivo Asia
Message Edited by Puertoriqueno on 03-17-2005 02:39 PM
Sorry my rebel comment was out of line. Other than that, please indicate where I have insulted anyone here in this thread.
Fivo Asia
Fair enough. I was talking about the carebear comment. You pointed out that some of my comments have been inflamatory, so I am making an effort to tone it down a bit. The carebear comment seemed to invite flaming on you, and that degrades the good arguments and comments you make.....you make me think, even though we have argued from time to time.
EdOWar wrote:What I got from Lord_Pall's statement isn't so much that the Devs blame merchants for high loot prices, but that the Devs have implemented galaxy-wide searches as a tool to manipulate the player economy. This explains a couple of things: 1) Why all vendors will be able to register, not just Advertising IV or Master Merchant (wouldn't do much good if it only applied to a minority of the player base) and 2) Why they have seemingly ignored merchant's concerns about price wars (after all, that seems to be their intent with this change). And I think they will ultimately fail in their attempt (I posted my reasons why in the other vendor change poll, I won't rehash them here).To me, the larger issue isn't the galaxy-wide search in-and-of itself, but the attempts by the Devs to manipulate a player-regulated economy, even if they are doing so indirectly. When this attempt fails, NPC vendors may be in our future.Slim Vargo, Corbantis
When they introduced the galaxy search, it was so it was easy for players to find what they wanted. I'm sure they got many complaints about how hard it was to find what they wanted and how much they hated shopping. Since I'm sure most of the design team are men, they could relate to the hating of shopping.
The adjustments are from the uproar about how it'll affect the economy. I don't think the galaxy search is being used as an economy tweaker at least from the dev point of view.
Puertoriqueno wrote:
Scudder wrote:As someone pointed out to me in your earlier thread... a merchant is anyone who sells anything... it's not JUST a profession in this game. So yes, merchants ARE out looting and prices of loot DOES affect merchants.
To an extent....but I think that loot prices are effected more by market demand than current in-game market....and by this I mean the prices that merchants sell high-end loot. I find that most of the high-end loot in the game is sold in the trade forums instead of in-game....but you guys can correct me if I am wrong of course.
The devs said only 10% of the game is registered on the forums. Since way more than 10% of the gaming population participates in high level content, I'd have to disagree with you that the majority of high level loot is sold on the trade forums.