Business And Economy Archive
Thread: Jedi and Crystals Economy needs a fix on this one.
HardwiredXMan wrote:
This problem is a bit more unique than any other item in the game.
First the only jedi that can afford to hunt for thier own crystals are those jedi that have a completed template, very close to a completed templete or havn't invested little to no skill points into jedi so they are able to continue to have 2 master elite normal professions.....
Derku wrote:
HardwiredXMan wrote:
This problem is a bit more unique than any other item in the game.
First the only jedi that can afford to hunt for thier own crystals are those jedi that have a completed template, very close to a completed templete or havn't invested little to no skill points into jedi so they are able to continue to have 2 master elite normal professions.....
I read this far and realized your arguement is invalid. Jedi get two characters on their server after they unlock. They can grind that character to either a crafting profession or a combat profession. Either way they will be able to easily get crystals.
you should have kept reading because you misunderstand. when I say jedi can't afford to get crystals, I mean that the price you pay (thousands of xp loss for gaining visibility with your jedi) is pretty high for someone who only has half their jedi template done to go and hunt the very thing that gives you visiblity for crystals. If you are a low level jedi, that xp loss could mean days or even weeks more grinding if your a casual player. Or if you don't get killed, you still have an open bounty on your head and must stay buffed, stay stuffed on foods and drink, stay paranoid and all that goes with it just so you can run when a BH and maybe a few of his friends come looking for you. So unless you are a high level jedi that's either completely finished with your template or very close to finishing your template where losing xp is not that big of a drawback because you can level faster that if you were a padawan or 0044 lightsaber only template, then you just don't want to risk getting put on the terms and making your whole jedi life that much harder.
I meant that statment purely from only using your jedi, not your alt....later in the post I mention stuff about using a jedi alt....so again, you should have read the whole post.
Phaelyn wrote:
OK, since you left a nicely detailed post, I won't quote in entirety - And hopefully we won't get lost in the flow.
I understand and sympathize with the plight of a Jedi. I truly do. It must be very hard to try and work through your profession whilst taking a hide and seek mentality. However, the statement that XP loss or not wanting to waste thier Alt's professions doesn't wash. Firstly, no matter what publish your Jedi comes from - You chose the challenge. Perhaps not with open eyes, but accepted it nonetheless. You now know that you risk XP loss by being seen - But that is a risk associated with your Profession. Perhaps the Devs have placed far too strict a restriction with the amount of XP loss, but the purpose is to attempt to keep the Jedi as they SHOULD be - very rare. So, barring using your Jedi to hunt for himself due to XP loss possibilities - Can you more fully explain why you wouldn't want to use an Alt to hunt Crystals? Remember, many of us do not know the abilities and/or restrictions of this secondary character you have been granted. To US, it is another character that can be fully developed. It to US, the non-Jedi, can become a BH to hunt opposing Jedi -Or a Master Doctor to earn moeny through buffing -Or to template up to a crystal hunter. Is there something we don't know? Is it a situation where your Jedi MUST be with the alt somehow? And in addition, what's to stop from building the Alt to go stockpile hordes of Crystals, and then drop a profession or 2 to become what the Jedi needs as back up? All I can see is A) An unwillingness to take the time needed to train several times over or B) Want special treatment.
Well, my reason for not wanting to use my alt to hunt crystals is that I don't want my alt locked down to catering to my jedi needs. I want my alt to be a complete separate entity from that of my jedi. just becauseI gained the slot that my alt was created on by using my jedi, in no way should mean I should feel the need to tie my alt to my jedi in anyway. I have played the combat side of SWG for more than a year. I tasted crafting a bit with alts on other servers and I like crafting but never had the time to fully enjoy it as I was enjoying my combat character so much and because I put a lot more work into developing him, I chose to continue playing with him more and later decided to go ahead and get a jedi. Now that i have my jedi, I want my jedi to only have to worry about combat as that's all he is restricted to at this point in the game anyway. Now I want my alt to be a crafter. If or when I get vis with my jedi....take a break and play my crafter for a few weeks. I already split time between them now (matter of fact I got harvester runs to do...LOL) This way, I can take all the time in the world to grind my jedi xp while enjoying my crafting....who knows if I get deep into crafting, I may never play my jedi again.....ok, there's still a slight chance I would...I love combat too much...hehehe.
The other thing about the statements I made was basically an attempt to shed some light on why, or possible why I thinksome jedi feel the way they do about acquiring crystals. Excluding the fact that they can always use their alt to become a crystal hunter, The price to pay for using their jedi is so high that they are not willing to risk it to gain some crystals that might end up with a 0/0 tune (that's useless and must be thrown away...or used for decoration)....but yet you get on the terms and possibly lose in PVP and lose 4.5k - 500k xp depending on your level, possibly putting you in the hole -10 million xp...that's a step hole to crawl out of....probably worse than the FS grind. Since you only get 100, 200, maybe 300 xp per kill as a low level jedi. So the only alternative is to either buy crystals or use your alt (which would be restricting what you do with your alt).....sure you could change your alts professions as needed....but noone wants to add that kind of grinding on top of their jedi grind, after doing the FS grind and all the grinding before that......too much damn grinding....we want to limit that as much as possible.
Your statement that "bottom line is that our alts should not be limited to a handful of professions just because we need crystals for our jedi." again does not wash, for you sir have been GIVEN a 2nd character for FREE - Something we are not given. My contention that you chose to be a Jedi is still in effect - You have the choice as well to treat your Alt the same way. If your desire is Crystals - Make your Alt a gatherer. The fact that it is not as fun as you may wantit to be is an off-shoot of your career choice, and not through my potential crystal sales. (For the record, I have never charged more than 60K for a crystal, but that's not pertinent to the discussion)
First of all, the slot was not FREE, we pay dues to get that extra slot...it's compentsation for all the mess we put our main character through.....plust I still pay my monthly fee for this game....and if I stop paying, I won't be able to use any character, so it's not FREE or GIVEN to us.
But on this point, my only concern is that we should not be forced into only 1 or 2 alternatives to acquiring the one thing that our whole profession 100% depends on to be who and what we are.....it's either risk vis an massive xp loss, make our alts crystal hunters or spend insane amounts of money for a crystal. I'm sorry but all other professions have means of acquiring what they need to progress in their profession with minimal or no risk at all. a crafter only needs resources to progress, a combat profession only needs to kill....but a jedi can't even wield a lightsaber (his only means of gaining xp) without a crystal....that's very limited....and to make it where if we do go and get our own crystals we gain visibility, get put on the terms and die (because we will die especially if we are mid to low level)....then that's massive xp loss....the xp loss is at minimumlike 30x our ability to gain xp.....at padawan, we lose 4500 xp per death.....also at padawan we can barely make 100 - 200 xp per kill....and because even if we die we still need crystals, we would have to go right back out and gain more vis and thus die again and again....not to mention that we still lose xp if we die while using a padawan who still has normal professions....just because you die as a TKM don't mean you don't lose xp....heck I lost 4500 xp in space on a MP ship last week. That had nothing to do with hunting for crystals... So noone wants to risk that and so our only alternative is to buy crystals or make our alts into crystal hunters. this is what makes it limiting to our alts. Since there are only a few professions that are viable for hunting krayts, ns and other high level mobs.....our alts are again limited.....you won't take a pistoleer to hunt for crystals, just aint gonna work out too well...you'll spend more time running then you would killing.
**I think the one thing that can stop high priced crystals is that since the only players in the game that crystals mean anything to are jedi and that crystals are the sole tool a jedi needs to continue playing his/her jedi, only jedi should be allowed to get crystals as loot drops.**
I disagree with this as well. Crystals DO mean something to other players aside from Jedi. They make wonderful decorations. And Pearls are a mark ofachievement - "Look what I was able to do!" - Remove the ability for US to get these items, and you remove several dimensions from the game for everyone BUT Jedi. The fault is not with the Loot drop, the fault is with the Crystals being the only needed tool. To me, it's a sign of the designers short-sightedness that you were tied to this specific loot. Jedi are not ALL about making a Lightsaber - They are the "Defenders of Justice throughout the Galaxy". Many of the things we learn from the movies is that a Jedi learns to adapt his powers a number of ways - And none of them really involve crafting the lightsaber, EXCEPT for it was one thing a Jedi must do to become a Knight.
well, there can't be a problem with crystals being the only needed resource to make a lightsaber....this is how it is in star wars.....only pearls and crystals can make a lightsaber.....what are jedi suppose to use gemstones or something.....nope, the world of star wars says that jedi were to acquire a crystal or crystals to craft their own lightsaber. Noone had a crystal for decoration, if you did, the empire would be at your door accusing you of being a jedi or helping them.....I'm sorry, anything that had to do with the force was probably forbidden to have by the empire.....and who wants vader coming to talk to them about why they have a force crystal? Anyway, from a gaming standpoint, why not bend the rules a bit...but this is one where if a player wants a crystal, then they should have to buy it from the jedi, not the other way around....because show me where any non-jedi acquired a force crystal in star wars....hell, jedi's died trying to get crystals and pearls....you think a normal profession would survive attacking a krayt for it's pearl or enter the depths of a force crystal cave and live. There's a reason why only jedi had crystals and pearls.
Finally.. **a lot of those jedi remember what it took to get their status and have no regard for non-jedi professions.....it's kind of like a payback mentality......Theres a reason behind every action....this may be some backlash from high priced crystals...but I'm merely assuming this....but were all human and any human is capable of all things regardless of their character.....** First off, I happen to have had this Jedi Gang Bang happen around me. Perma Overt Dark Jedi like to flock together at starports and gank Overts as they come out of the port. Their choice, and hey, more power to em. However, AGAIN going back to Jedi as the movies define, the Force is not used for Attack, but defense - A player playing a Jedi as an attacker should be made to lose XP as well. It would tie more into the GCW at least that way. On the flip side, the system should ALSO not be based on Visiblity, but MISuse of your powers. A BH should never see you on the terminals unless you have done something worthy of being included. For Light Jedi, this would include initiating attacks, killing a member of their own faction or killing a BH. (They protect their own, after all) For Dark jedi (And I do SO hate this term - there are NO Dark Jedi - only those that have turned to the Dark Side - they need their own title) it would include Killing a member of their own faction, killing a Light Jedi, or killing a BH. I specify killing simply because it is against the beliefs as laid out to waste life - it's what feeds the Force. For some reason, this makes far more sense to me than being penalized for learning your craft.
But on the whole, you are correct - Crystal prices are insane, no matter WHO caused the spike in price.
yeah, i took a wild guess on this one.....honestly I have no idea why people act the way they do when they become jedi.....but I do know that non-jedi do help fan the flames a bit.....8 million credit crystal sales is a big fanning of the flame. anyway, I guess my standpoint is in the defense of jedi pertaining to the sale of crystals.....the non-jedi really don't see that crystals are not worth the prices they are selling them for.....just because it says premium or whatever and crystals don't drop like locked container do....they think "hey, I've got a gold mine here...it's a premium, that's a good 5 million right there". What they fail to realize is that premium is just a name because tuning crystals is no better than slicing weapons....you pay like 3 - 5k to slice weapons and armor.....if you get a bad slice, you go get more weapons and armor to slice until you get that ultimate slice....well at 5k a slice, 20 slices is chump change.....but the same principle applies to crystals.....but the difference is that instead of them being 5k....they are 2 - 8 million.....imagine getting a bad tune on 10 straight crystals....you can't use them, if you did, it would be like a master rifleman using a cdef carbine....yeah crappy stats and decreased damage. So a jedi could spend upwards of 80 million just to get one crystal to continue to progress in his profession...until then he is halted in all progress.....and due to the above reasons I stated....it all boils down to being extremely restricted or at a complete stop in playing the game.....and that is never good for any profession....
Anyway, we agree on somethings, on others well our post explains that....but one things for sure, I am neither on the jedi's side nor the non-jedi side. I don't favor either as I am both.....but I do strive for fairness....not total equality, but some measure of fairness.....and I still believe that jedi should be the only ones that can acquire crystals.....or for compromise, at least give jedi the ability to go to the crystal caves or a new instanced dungeon restricted to jedi only where they cannot gain visibility and can get the crystals they need.....non-jedi could still get crystals but this would stop the million dollar crystal sales.
I might have to drop by Radiant and pay you a nice little visit...hehe!Message Edited by HardwiredXMan on 01-21-2005 11:07 AM
Message Edited by WILDMAN_SOLO on 01-21-2005 04:18 PM
HardwiredXMan wrote:
Derku wrote:
HardwiredXMan wrote:
This problem is a bit more unique than any other item in the game.
First the only jedi that can afford to hunt for thier own crystals are those jedi that have a completed template, very close to a completed templete or havn't invested little to no skill points into jedi so they are able to continue to have 2 master elite normal professions.....
I read this far and realized your arguement is invalid. Jedi get two characters on their server after they unlock. They can grind that character to either a crafting profession or a combat profession. Either way they will be able to easily get crystals.
you should have kept reading because you misunderstand. when I say jedi can't afford to get crystals, I mean that the price you pay (thousands of xp loss for gaining visibility with your jedi) is pretty high for someone who only has half their jedi template done to go and hunt the very thing that gives you visiblity for crystals. If you are a low level jedi, that xp loss could mean days or even weeks more grinding if your a casual player. Or if you don't get killed, you still have an open bounty on your head and must stay buffed, stay stuffed on foods and drink, stay paranoid and all that goes with it just so you can run when a BH and maybe a few of his friends come looking for you. So unless you are a high level jedi that's either completely finished with your template or very close to finishing your template where losing xp is not that big of a drawback because you can level faster that if you were a padawan or 0044 lightsaber only template, then you just don't want to risk getting put on the terms and making your whole jedi life that much harder.
I meant that statment purely from only using your jedi, not your alt....later in the post I mention stuff about using a jedi alt....so again, you should have read the whole post.
I hate to admit this but that's about as far as I read on any post.
MousePad wrote:
How much is a crystal anyway? 50k? I remember when they were 200k or even more (much more).
One time I sold 3 unlocked containers for 50k... they guy needed to master smuggler fast... and he could afford it. He said the price was outrageous, but why did he buy em? Because I knew what they were worth at that point/occation. Because I knewit would've cost him more (time)hunting for them.I could've got even more if I really wanted to.
As I have said many times before: value is subjective.
If you want to sell crystals for 5k. Fine. Sell em. If you want to sell em for 2 million, go ahead. It's all about demand. If they guy really need a crystal now, and can't find any... but yours, you have an economic opportunity.
If you think the price is outrageous, don't buy it. Simple, really.
I think some of the premiums go for up to 4 mill.
Kalvin87 wrote:
Because of poor tuning, players need to buy more crystals, therefore, the players that sell them can jack up the price for individual crystals, because Jedi need more of them so badly.
This is not true. It's not because of poor tuning. It's because the Jedi who pay high prices only want the premium crystals. To get a premium crystal you have to pay a premium price. There is very high demand for what is a very, very limited resource.
There are plenty of non-premium crystals floating around for reasonable prices, the problem is that Jedi like you don't want to use them because you want the absolute best.
SWG_Miriam wrote:
Kalvin87 wrote:
Because of poor tuning, players need to buy more crystals, therefore, the players that sell them can jack up the price for individual crystals, because Jedi need more of them so badly.
This is not true. It's not because of poor tuning. It's because the Jedi who pay high prices only want the premium crystals. To get a premium crystal you have to pay a premium price. There is very high demand for what is a very, very limited resource.
There are plenty of non-premium crystals floating around for reasonable prices, the problem is that Jedi like you don't want to use them because you want the absolute best.
The reason jedi only want premiums is because they give you the best chance to get a decent tune. The lesser quality crystals,even if you get a great tune on them are very very rarely good and are limited to low stats even if it gets a great tune which makes them undesirable and in many cases not worth using....especially if your in the FRS.....because that means you are perma-overt and have to fight other jedi all the time.....so you want the best tunes you can get so you won't be gimped on damage in pvp. So it still boils down to tuning being part of the problem.
For all those out there that don't have a jedi or don't know what it's like to have one.....understand that jedi is not like a normal professions....jedi don't get a lot of options. They are restricted in so many ways. If normal professions had to put up with half of what a jedi has to put up with, there would be no game because everyone would probably quit playing.
So yes, a jedi want's nothing but the best....because it's either you get the best or you die....it's as simple as that. There is no inbetween for a jedi. That's whay jedi try to stay in hiding until they finish their template.
Also remember this.....tuning is similar to slicing and experiementation. It's completely random but the results tend to lean heavily on the bad side. tuning crystals is like getting a 5% slice 10 times in a row....or 5 straight critical failures during experimentation. It sucks badly....if you had to deal with that while at the same time breaking your pockets because you hope the next slice or experiment will be amazing but still got crappy results....you'd be pissed just like jedi are.
MY SOLUTION
I think this will solve the whole problem and would allow the game to stay the same as it is now as far as they way crystals drop and are sold. Simplyput a limit on how low a crystal can tune based on it's quality So if you tune aflawless crystal, you still can get a random tune but it would never tune with stats lower than the crystal below it in quality.
Example. (numbers can be tweaked as needed....these are just examples)
a quality crystal would tune to minium 10/10 with a 5% chance of tuning as high as 50/50
a select crystal would never tune below 15/15 and would have 7% chance of tuning as high as 50/50
a premium crystal then could never tune less than 20/20 and would have a 10% chances of tuning to 50/50
a flawless crystal then could never tune less than 30/30 and would have a 20% chance of tuning to 50/50
What this would do is make the money that jedi spend on buying crystals actually worth something.....so when you buy a premium crystal from someone, you both know that the premium crystal is definitely going to get a pretty good tune...so it would make spending 5 million on it worth it. A jedi won't feel like they have thrown away 5 million on a premiumwhen it gets a 3/3 tune or a 0/0 tune.
My whole point is to make crystals worth the money they are being sold for....because currently the price of a crystal is definitly not based on it's quality, but it's need and rarity. Non-jedi know that jedi NEED crystals and everyone also knows how rare premiums are and how much more rare flawless crystals are....Then there's the competition between jedi for those rare crystals....this also raises the price.....
Anyway, something needs to be done because at the rate it is right now, all jedi will be broke and disgruntled...that's bad for the game and the community.
Message Edited by HardwiredXMan on 01-22-2005 08:45 AM
Kalvin87 wrote:
I didn't make the original post because I just got a bad tune...
Because I just blew 5 million credits on a premium
Or because I get bad tunes in general
I'm just saying the tuning system is broken. That's it.
You tools can't say "You took on Jedi, you knew it was coming"
That's like saying "It was broken when you started, so we can't fix it." That's crap.
The issue is, tuning is broken, and non-Jedi are taking advantage of it.
I can understand paying 5 million credits for a Premium Pearl/Crystal, if you would actually have a good tune!
But half the time, it's just a 50% chance that you're just gonna end up throwing 5 million credits away. OH MAN BUT THATS WHAT I GET FOR BEING A JEDI, RIGHT? LOLZ OMG. Um, no.
So either the economy needs a fix, or the system does.
Flame away, Jedi-Haters.
Then you come up with your BS above. No mister Jedi, tuning is NOT broken - It's intentionally difficult. If you are going to be what is considered the most supreme, most presitious class in the game, there are limitations placed on it. That's the name of ANY game, benefits vs limitations. Perhaps tuning IS too restrictive, but not broken.
Until you decided to lump ALL Non Jedi into a class known to you as "Tools", I was beginning to look at a lot of my Jedi friends with a new respect. I never knew their full amount of challenges - I just thought Visibility was the only challenge. But YOU Kalvin have just demostrated what Hardwired was talking about in his post, and exceeded his example.You seem to think there are 2 types of players - Jedi, and everyone else. You missed the parts of MY post where I state factually that *I* have never sold a crystal for more than 60k. You missed where people point out that they have senn exactly what I have - Auctions that start at a reasonable price, and then a Jedi jumps all over the price, raising beyond the scope of being reasonable. FACT is, Jedi, through throwing money at premium crystals have set the standard for which players sell their crystals - You created thedisparity in the market (By you, I refer to Jedi in general), and now there are calls to take Crystal looting away from Non-Jedi, place cost restrictions, increase your chances of doing something that is SUPPOSED to be difficult, all to make it easier on YOU.
And you call US Tools. Play within your limitations, and stop whining. I was grouped with a Knight last night who died 3 times in the course of battle. Not ONCE did he complain about his XP loss. He got up, dusted himself off - And went right back into battle. Not one complaint or whine that he lost XP.
THAT I respect.