Business And Economy Archive
Thread: Should Artisan = Merchant?
KillerCod
Wed Feb 09, 2005 4:00 pm
#14
I enjoy my Artisian/Merchant character just the way he is. I don't think there is too much broken with crafting and selling at this point, and I don't really support the idea of making Artisian depend on another character class to be sucessful. Its a long and boring grind, and can get credit intensive if you want to be large and sucessful.
Master combat characters can go out and solo a variety of creatures with buffs/spice/armor applied, be sucessful in their profesions, and depend on noone except the weapon and armorsmiths.
Ford Motor Company does not depend on independant merchants to sell it's wares, it OWNS the dealships. Most people in the real world who hand craft their own items sell them on their own, they don't depend on Wal Mart to sell and market their creations. So either way, large or small items, I don't see a reason to complicate these two professions.
As for factories and harvesters, again... I, as a private individual, in the real world, if I had the inclination or money, could purchase a factory that makes widgets and not have the slightest clue what they are or how to make them. I could, if so inclined, purchase the means or equipment to mine and harvest a variety of resources without much hands on knowledge or involvement.
IF IT IS NOT BROKE, Don't try to fix it!
BTW, just out of curiosity, what is the preferred professions of the person who started this thread? Just curious...
Master combat characters can go out and solo a variety of creatures with buffs/spice/armor applied, be sucessful in their profesions, and depend on noone except the weapon and armorsmiths.
Ford Motor Company does not depend on independant merchants to sell it's wares, it OWNS the dealships. Most people in the real world who hand craft their own items sell them on their own, they don't depend on Wal Mart to sell and market their creations. So either way, large or small items, I don't see a reason to complicate these two professions.
As for factories and harvesters, again... I, as a private individual, in the real world, if I had the inclination or money, could purchase a factory that makes widgets and not have the slightest clue what they are or how to make them. I could, if so inclined, purchase the means or equipment to mine and harvest a variety of resources without much hands on knowledge or involvement.
IF IT IS NOT BROKE, Don't try to fix it!
BTW, just out of curiosity, what is the preferred professions of the person who started this thread? Just curious...
Exhibit69
Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:31 pm
#15
/quote
Ford Motor Company does not depend on independant merchants to sell it's wares, it OWNS the dealships
/endquote
Actually thats not correct at all. Ford Motor company licenses the dealerships, they are indepentantly owned and operated.
And in our world, with the exception of the internet, almost all business's buy product from the manufacturors, and then resell it at a profit. After all when was the last time you saw a ScottTissue store or a Johnson&Johnson outlet?
shilo2
Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:44 pm
#16
My main is a Ranger..i know all about useless skill tree's and point sinks lol!
My alt is Master Artisan, and im halfway through merchant...and i am hoping to go up WS...but at the same time i want to master pistols..
I am at a crossroads...the SP is getting low, and i have barely even dented WS! I have a few choices, all of which i dont like..
option 1:
Drop pistols, and and put the SP into WS, and finish up with merchant
pros: I get to do what i wanted, make weapons and sell them.
Cons: I cant enjoy any combat, its basically like being forced to go to bed, even though the its still light outside, and you can hear the kids next door
playing in the street!
option 2:
Drop a bit of artisan, and put the rest of the SP into WS, finish up with merchant, and pistols
Pros: i can make weapons, and i get all the selling tools from merchant, plus i can go out and fight, and have fun
Cons: I loose experimentation points, which are needed for me to make 99.999 repair tools...which outsell even the best resources i have for sale....(i thank it all to a conductivity:1000 spawn of copper!!!) plus bone armour, and i like to use voritor and kimo scales to make it better, it sells really fast.
Option 3:
Only dabble into merchant, and keep the rest of the SP for WS and pistols
Pros: I can do everything i wanted
Cons: my ability to sell, and compete against other crafters with mastermerchant is severly limited.
But eventually i will get a second account, which will be a Master merchant/ Master Armoursmith...that coupled with my Master Ranger, will be one hell of a money maker!!!
My alt is Master Artisan, and im halfway through merchant...and i am hoping to go up WS...but at the same time i want to master pistols..
I am at a crossroads...the SP is getting low, and i have barely even dented WS! I have a few choices, all of which i dont like..
option 1:
Drop pistols, and and put the SP into WS, and finish up with merchant
pros: I get to do what i wanted, make weapons and sell them.
Cons: I cant enjoy any combat, its basically like being forced to go to bed, even though the its still light outside, and you can hear the kids next door
playing in the street!
option 2:
Drop a bit of artisan, and put the rest of the SP into WS, finish up with merchant, and pistols
Pros: i can make weapons, and i get all the selling tools from merchant, plus i can go out and fight, and have fun
Cons: I loose experimentation points, which are needed for me to make 99.999 repair tools...which outsell even the best resources i have for sale....(i thank it all to a conductivity:1000 spawn of copper!!!) plus bone armour, and i like to use voritor and kimo scales to make it better, it sells really fast.
Option 3:
Only dabble into merchant, and keep the rest of the SP for WS and pistols
Pros: I can do everything i wanted
Cons: my ability to sell, and compete against other crafters with mastermerchant is severly limited.
But eventually i will get a second account, which will be a Master merchant/ Master Armoursmith...that coupled with my Master Ranger, will be one hell of a money maker!!!
Message Edited by shilo2 on 02-09-2005 08:45 PM
PyroVespin
Thu Feb 10, 2005 1:00 am
#17
i personally dont like your plan, because i dont have 2 accounts like some... and im not a jedi, to spend more skill points to run my buisness would ruin the game for me... as it is i think that the merchant tree is to sp expensive... because just to make my weaponsmith skills worth having i need to have quite a few merchant skills... which leaves no room for combat skills which hands down is what a mmorpg is all about.. everything leads to combat... and what fun is it to sit arround all the time listening to your friends fight and xp and get jedi's... while your sitting in the back room making hammers? granted its fun sometimes... but not all the time... as it is i recently decided to go back to master swords and i have to drop some of my vendors just to do that... its hard to fight when u done have a elite combat profession... so im not in favor of anything in artisan causing me to have to go farther into skill point debt just to do what i do now...
PyroVespin
Crimsonsplat
Thu Feb 10, 2005 1:01 am
#18
Ok, I admit I only skimmed the last half of the idea, because from the first half, it was no go.
First, I am confused by the way you use the word "artisan." Sometimes you seem to mean Artisans, other times you seem to mean "Artisan and all elite crafting classes."
Second, my position is that Merchant is not a viable profession in and of itself. The Devs had this insane idea that the crafters would sell to players (i.e.: merchants) who would re-sell at a markup to the public.Problems with this concept are:
a)There are too few players whowant to do nothing besides buy and sell goods for this to work, even in the daysof unlimited vendor stock.Some very few do this, but the game economy would founder if you tried to restrict sales to only a Merchant class.
b) Human greed. I made it, by god, I'll make the profit on it, not some other greedy SOB trying to chisel me down on the price while marking it up ever higher for resale.
c) Game functionslimit the ability for Merchants to be independantretailers, requiring much time and effort for the merchantto find sellers who can keep a shop in stock, and for the seller to find a buyer before he goes broke on factory/harvester maintenance. If the Merchant could "rent out" vendors by spawning them for other people and take a cut from the final sale, or the devs put in a consignment system, then it could be done.
I'm sorry to say, you're another in a long line of game players who had a clever idea and got carried away with it before examining any ramifications. As the game's devs learned, they can plan for the game to be played one way, but the players are bound to do something else.
kesstral
Thu Feb 10, 2005 1:31 am
#19
I don't agree with some of the ideas of the original poster, but I do agree that Merchant as a profession is a skill point sink and needs some work.
What I believe is that Merchant is really a money maker for SOE. I have 2 accounts. My main is a master AS/master pike with tkand scout. My alt is a master artisan/master merchant with smuggler.
There is no way for me to enjoy playing a crafting profession without having some merchant and I would like to do some PvE (and clear lairs from around my factories). I do get alot of support from my guild, but running a few vendors, restocking, pricing, etc, can be VERY time consuming and I don't think any of my friends really want to waste their play time doing my work.
This game is designed with crafters being crafters and fighters being fighters, and anyone inbetween is pretty much ineffective.
What I would like to see is the ability for merchants to rent vendors to other players. As a crafter with no Merchant boxes, I can go to my master merchant friend, hire a vendor and beable to put items on it myself. The merchant would get a tax% off every sale, then % to the city if in one, and the player would beable to add/remove and price their items. This way the player would gain the benefit of the merchants ability to place NPC's and register on the planetary map and the merchant can make money. Maybe include an option for the merchant to limit the stockroom size of the rented vendor (say 500 items out of the possible 4000) and the merchant can't just take these items off (to prevent griefing the renters).
Just my cent-and-a-half after tax
freedomwarrior
Thu Feb 10, 2005 1:36 am
#20
On the face value, this seems like a nice idea, but in the end, your manufacture class or whatever is nothing more than the merchant class with more things added to it. I understand what your saying, but this would be nearly impossible for some. Let me ellaborate. I have a chef who is also a master BE. Because of this, I dont have the points needed to be able to master artisan and in turn get the manufacturers line as you state. Because of this, im basically SOL. With what you have proposed, I now have a chef who cant use a factory so is left to making singles of stuff and putting on the bazaar and stuck with pricing at 6k max. Some of the be foods I make, cost more than 6k to make and thus you are limiting the profession. Now you could say, dont be a BE, but then you run into trouble of buying the BE additives needed to make your wares more attractable to the community. Most new chefs are not going to be able to afford to do this, so in a sense are again SOL.
Dont get me wrong, you idea has some merit, because I do agree cross server trades are hurting the community to a point as well. But, more work needs to go into thinking about the few things I pointed out in the previous paragraph.
OlisJ
Thu Feb 10, 2005 1:45 am
#21
I dont agree with the idea Artisan = Merchant.
Actually I think Merchand should be like politician nowdays (without skillpoint use and without prerequisites).
Why? The answer is simple, Merchant is add-on profession de facto for any other classes, even loot hunters want their own business. Not to mention Doctors and Combat medics.
Crimsonsplat
Thu Feb 10, 2005 1:52 am
#22
Thank you OlisJ. My exact point. All it is, is a point sink that guarantees I'm toast if aggro'd by anything nastier than a kreetle, even on Tatooine.
OlisJ
Thu Feb 10, 2005 2:25 am
#23
Exhibit69 wrote:
/quote
Ford Motor Company does not depend on independant merchants to sell it's wares, it OWNS the dealships
/endquote
Actually thats not correct at all. Ford Motor company licenses the dealerships, they are indepentantly owned and operated.
And in our world, with the exception of the internet, almost all business's buy product from the manufacturors, and then resell it at a profit. After all when was the last time you saw a ScottTissue store or a Johnson&Johnson outlet?
The virtual economy is not like one in real life. You just can't compare them with ease. The most difficult part in virtual economy is that everything in it should have a fun factor, otherwise it's no no to be in game. There are some classes that are on the bottom of the economy chain (think about entertainer tree for example), they can produce something (musicians) that is usable to minority.
The idea of making merchant like a tier between consumer and crafter is not working in the virtual economy.Thecrafters would sell their goods on their own vendors easier than finding merchants to do the sales. The loot lords would rather use trade forums to do the "deals of the lifetime". Theonly suffering classes are the ones who can not afford (by skillpoints) the artisan and or merchant tree (field crafters: CM/DOCs, Smugglers, Rangers), they need to sacrifice their safety tobe able to own their businesses, or what is worse buy another account, which is outrageous IMO.
The simple removal of skillpoint requirements and prerequisite being in artisan tree (make it basic profession like politician), from merchant and eliminating business skills from artisan would make a huge difference. Artisan could use more usefull skills in 4 skillboxes (maybe repair skills). Everyone would be able to offer their goods at top rate service.
Don't forget, we are discussing all this to make the game more fun!
Crimsonsplat
Thu Feb 10, 2005 11:51 am
#24
shilo2 wrote:
But eventually i will get a second account, which will be a Master merchant/ Master Armoursmith...that coupled with my Master Ranger, will be one hell of a money maker!!!
Yeah. For Sony.
Tirranus
Sat Feb 12, 2005 12:39 pm
#25
I'm absolutely opposed to changing the skill trees in the way you suggested, but I think that if Merchants could give admin rights to thier vendors, that the "I MUST have Merchant to craft" problem would go away for the most part.
Jagged-F3l
Sun Feb 13, 2005 2:02 am
#26
All I see this proposal doing is introducing a middleman. Crafters need to make a profit. Salespeople need to make a profit. In the end, the end-user of the product gets screwed, especially the way players do math in this game. It's never 5% markup, but some multiple of CPU. Greed would ruin the economy.