Business And Economy Archive
Thread: JTL & Shipwright Here Yesterday, Gone Tomorrow
Interesting analysis, BleuDestiny -- thanks for taking the time to put this together.
For me, the problems with Shipwright and Architect and other crafting professions not being as "fun" as they should be come down to this simple question: Why do people want to be crafters?
I think for a lot of us it's the creative aspect. We don't make things because we enjoy cranking out the same stuff over and over, or because we have some need to feel useful to other players or to the game economy. We craft because we like coming up with new things. We admire a clever invention; we enjoy a novel implementation; we feel happy when we discover some new aspect of the game world.
But how are these interests served by the current crafting system in SWG?
It seems to me that the developers who originally designed SWG's crafting system thought of crafting in terms of its functional role in servicing the overall SWG economy. That's not a bad thing; in fact, it's absolutely necessary to consider this if you're going to have a true player economy (rather than an NPC-driven economy).
But I wonder if in designing SWG's crafting system the developers didn't spend too much time thinking of crafting in terms of output, rather than in terms of what makes crafting fun. To put it another way, it seems like crafting in SWG is only about cranking out stuff for non-crafters, rather than being something that people want to do because it's fun to do in its own right.
In other words, I think the real problem with all the crafting professions is that they're designed to be all about result, and not enough about the process of crafting itself as a creative act.
Consider: there are only a few types of houses and ships, and they don't decay -- once you build (and sell) a house or a ship, it's around forever; there's no aftermarket. This is fine if your main concern as a developer is to insure that players who want houses and ships can get them... but from a crafter's point of view, it quickly becomes unprofitable. Even worse, it becomes boring -- once you've built one of the few predetermined types of houses or ships, there's nothing new to discover; it's just about cranking out more of the same with better quality... and once you've done that, what's left?
SWG's crafting designers wound up putting a time limit on crafting. Crafting becomes something that you do for a while until you realize that you've made everything that can be made. Then you stop crafting because it's boring and unrewarding. And the economy starts suffering from having fewer crafter-created goods. And then SWG's administrators have to start adding more and better loot drops to compensate for the goods that are no longer being created by people who stopped crafting. And that further drives off crafters, and things just get worse from there.
In short, crafting in SWG wound up being designed from a non-crafter's perspective. It isn't about providing a feature that's fun for crafters; it's merely about maintaining a supply of goods to non-crafters. We're just a cog in the economic machine.
The good news is that this can be fixed. Crafting in SWG is not completely broken; there are some very good structural features that can be built on. In particular, the system of mining resources with varying qualities and using those resources in schematics is brilliant -- it is the one truly great feature of crafting in SWG that makes crafting worth doing for any amount of time at all. The concept of experimentation on craftable objects, while limited, is also fundamentally good because it supports the creative aspect of the natural crafter.
What we really need is to recraft the crafting system in general using the existing structural features to focus on making the process of crafting interesting and fun. When people craft because it's fun, you'll get necessary goods into the player economy because people will want to craft. Result: happier players, and a better (i.e., more profitable!) SWG.
I've had a few ideas for how to accomplish this goal -- see my Crafting: A Blueprint for the Future and Modular Architecture: A Redesign Proposal posts for examples. But the main thing is to realize that Shipwrights and Architects and other crafters will continue to get bored with crafting as long as crafting remains designed to service non-crafters instead of being a fun process for crafters themselves.
If we ever get anything like a Crafting Revamp, I hope the developers assigned to it will understand this concern, and will think of ways to restructure the fundamentally good crafting system to emphasize the process of crafting from the point of view of those of us who enjoy the act of creation. That, I think, is the ultimate solution to the Shipwright problem.
--Flatfingers
Call it what you like, the end result was taking away much and giving little in return. The fact that the little they gave coincided with the taking away, demonstrates an awareness of the issue, an achnowledgement, and they threw us a meager bone.
Phaelyn wrote:
Fixed.
BleuDestiny wrote:
Call it what you like, the end result was taking away much and giving little in return. The fact that the little they gave coincided with the taking away, demonstrates an awareness of the issue, an achnowledgement, and they threw us a meager bone.
Phaelyn wrote:
Fixed.
Message Edited by BleuDestiny on 02-23-2005 05:22 PM
BleuDestiny wrote:
Call it what you like, the end result was taking away much and giving little in return. The fact that the little they gave coincided with the taking away, demonstrates an awareness of the issue, an achnowledgement, and they threw us a meager bone.
Phaelyn wrote:
Fixed.
Message Edited by BleuDestiny on 02-23-2005 05:33 PM
Flatfingers wrote:
I've had a few ideas for how to accomplish this goal -- see my Crafting: A Blueprint for the Future and Modular Architecture: A Redesign Proposal posts for examples. But the main thing is to realize that Shipwrights and Architects and other crafters will continue to get bored with crafting as long as crafting remains designed to service non-crafters instead of being a fun process for crafters themselves.
If we ever get anything like a Crafting Revamp, I hope the developers assigned to it will understand this concern, and will think of ways to restructure the fundamentally good crafting system to emphasize the process of crafting from the point of view of those of us who enjoy the act of creation. That, I think, is the ultimate solution to the Shipwright problem.
--Flatfingers
Message Edited by Bugboy321 on 02-24-2005 07:14 AM
Having said this, I don't think being a crafter was supposed to be easy. Indeed what we are really complaining about is that we are not able to be sucessful architects/shipwrights by ourselves. We don't have enough room to keep all the necessary resources and components and deeds and stuff. We'll maybe we were never supposed to do this alone: I suspect that things are as difficult as they are by design. I think it would be possible to specialize even within the professions. For example, some architects could specialize in supplying components like wall modules, others could specialize in suppliying architecht specific resources, etc. This would require building a decent sized network of interdependent crafters, but it could be done. I suspect this is what the game creators had in mind when designing the restrictions we face.
Is it fair that we have to be so interdependent? That certainly is the question of the day, but when you consider that your ground-combat types depend heavily on weaponsmiths, armorsmiths and doctors perhaps it isnt as unfair as we think.
Bugboy321 wrote:
@BleuDestiny
I don't know why I even bother to post on these boards, you all think you have all the answers anyway. And that's real sweet logic to consider removal of a stated exploit as "taking away".
As I have said before many many times there is NO storage limit acceptable to everyone. The fact is, the devs MUST have a limit in order to have a stable server.
If you are running out of room as crafter, you need to be more efficient with your storage or GET ANOTHER TOON! I have so much roomon my 3 accountsbetween houses, factories and vendors and PA shared housingI actually am considering taking down some houses. I fit the resources I need for a SW, AS, and WS in 2 mediums with a 3rd as overflow. I have 2 other meds for pre-RE'd parts storage and a PA shared large for the resultant RE'd parts, for PA members to help themselve to. Granted, I am not the most productive crafter on my server, but that leaves me plenty of lots for harvesters. And that's not even considering lot swaps.
I'm so freaking tired of the SOE bashing around here, if you don't like it GO AWAY!
That's nuts, I work with AS and WS and they have the same storage issues I do. If you read the forums, as I'm sure you do, you'll know that there's a large contingent of players who are griefed by the sad state of storage ingame. Thanks for a rational reply.
I also like your suggestion that A) there's only so much storage they can allow for server stability, and B) you suggest that I get another toon to solve the storage issue.
Look at A and B again. Think about it. Anything pop out at you about your logic?
I apprecate that you are tired of SOE bashing, but I can't wear that monkey, those monkeys ride squarely on SOE's shoulders where they belong, as SOE has more often than naught admitted lately. Glad to see they're working hard, they're making progress, and in other areas, they're still making some of the same mistakes in communication, acting on feedback, and planning. Not my monkey, I'm just a paying customer, and your being tired does not make the issues go away.
Message Edited by BleuDestiny on 02-24-2005 09:30 AM
BleuDestiny wrote:I don't know of a currently producing Shipwright, and I'm about to drop my shipwright profession with a new template design. It was a collosal waste of time. JTL itself seems to have died an early death. The profession of Shipwright was a hollow and unenjoyable experience, on a level unlike any other crafting profession I have played.Observations:
- Shipwright took far too many resources to grind, and takes far too many resources to maintain, too many to store (with storage so obscenely limited,) was a hog, is a hog, takes too much effort in harvesting and acquiring resources
- Ships do not decay and do not need replacement
This is not true. All ships and all equipment decay when used and getting damage. That is the same as with armour.- A crafting profession that does not allow a player to make great stuff, is no fun
Yes, true. I would not want to craft meaningless items. There are some items like capacitators that should be used with REd stuff not with crafted. But fact is that most items, if crafted by a Master with at least medium quality resources are better than REd stuff. If you are/were no master than it is no wonder you thought you would not be able to compete with RE parts.
- Quality resources are non-existant, month after month of garbage spawns
That totally depends on the server. My SW is on Infinity and I have millions of HQ resourcs of all types needed. If your server did not have good spawns that is simply unluck, ask the other crafting professions like WS or AS, they have the same issues.- Unlike other professions' components, a shipwrights components' stats are spread out, for example, 25%/25%/25%/25% with no stat leading the quality
Again not true. That only is the case for chassis. All other parts need mostly 1 or 2 ingredients with a high percentage.- Lack of quality differentiation in experimenting
Maybe you play a different game than I? My vendor is full with different experimentation types. One style is full power to offense states like damage with weapons or shield intensity with shields. But since there are numerous people having problmes with mass or energy I also always provide experimentation types where these critical problems are addressed. These items sell well, too.- RE'ing is a quagmire of storage problems (ie. storage continues to be a major source of grief for players who also craft), is a quagmire of too much work for too little reward. We've had players who have never, after thousands, and thousands of RE'ing, have gotten a single whole set of Firespray discs. It's work with no payoff
Sure, you have to invest hours after hours of the same work. Like grinding the crafting trees of a BE without a macro for example (I know what I am speaking about). You need to RE around 200 parts for 1 disk, and since it is random which one you get you may have to RE 4000 parts for a full set.
I did this for 3 sets now, and I am short before getting my 4th set. How did I get that many parts for RE you may wonder now? I bought them for 3k per level. This was a large money sink, but I was able to compensate it with my other sales, especially because SW is not my only business. I could have payed less, but I wanted many parts to come, and those people making money on me this way spend it for new parts in my shop (no, I don´t buy atm).
- Sales of parts and sales of RE parts is non-existant; most people who are still flying just collect various parts and have a shipwright RE them ready to go in their own tool. The shipwright has simply become a person who gets a /tell that says, "hey i've got 10 parts, can you RE them for me? Where can we meet?"
My sales are strong for RE parts. I have around 800 for sale and 2500 in my storage vendor. And letting someone give you 10 items and RE them though you have no interest in it is solely your problem. I asked for credits if peple just wanted the RE and keep the items (usually 5k - 10k per Level, which results in 100k for a level 10 RE for example (some payed even more because they were so happy), and I always told them that I will keep the disk if one pops up).- Though the devs have done many things to reduce prep time in the game, to speed up people's ability to get out there and enjoy the game, they still haven't done enough, including all the busy work around storage management, and people don't have time or interest in JTL. It's already being reduced to a means to travel quickly between starport. Of all the JTL enabled peeps in our guild, I think 3 still fly. Most have not flown in a LONG time.
Yes I recognized a smaller amount of active pilots, I even got time again for things besides constant crafting. But since a while again many people fly, I sell large amounts of SW parts again.- SOE says "the ground based game and the space game are separate," and recent words from SOE around theGCW indicate that they're going to be merged into a seamless experience. OK, so currently shipwright crafting xp doesn't count towards FS, when will that be remedied in fairness to the shipwright, a crafting profession like any other?
SW can do nothing but hand crafting (except for consumalbles). It would be an unfair advantage over Architets, Weaponsmiths ... if their crafting would cound for FS. Yes, not nice for SW, but there are other ways to gain FS. And if you want to become a jedi and use him for fighting it would be a waste to exchange crafting FS exp anyway.If something were done about the economics and enjoyment of being a shipwright, maybe more would keep it, or work it, but its already become just another broken profession. As it is, the ground-based profession and the space-based professions, shipwright and pilot respectively, are DOA.
I see it different, maybe because I had success and still continue having fun and success with it. The only thing that is a pain is the limited factory suppport. But since the sales are not insane any more like in the first months I guess I will be able to live with it. The first days were a maniac
Message Edited by BleuDestiny on 02-22-2005
09:13 AM
Kalano wrote:
Wow, i read both of your posts and i was amazed. I nominate you to be the head of a new dev crack team on crafting fixing.
Thanks for the nice words -- I appreciate them.
By nature, Ienjoy designing systems. One of the results of this is that I tend to be more interested in crafting in online games than in combat. (I don't mind combat; I just find crafting more interesting.) So I find myself becoming an advocate for crafters and crafting. I try to find ways toencourage the game's designers to treat crafters as valuable members of the game community -- as valuable (if not more so over the long run) as players who enjoy combat.
For me, that means trying to come up with practical suggestions for high-payofffeatures that make crafting more fun. I don't mind a game having good combat features -- I just believe thatcraftingis equallyimportant. So Itry to help make that happen by developing andoffering suggestions for features that really appeal to the "crafter personality."
I wouldn't mindseeing some of these ideas adopted by Real Live Developers. But the most important thing is to persuade SOE to offer as much attention to making SWG fun for its crafter community as it does to improving the play experience forits fighter community. Combat and the GCW are important... but so are the builders.
Did you get the corrospondent to pass on the stuff you written up? If not, but the crap out of him and get it in the devs hands. They would definatly benifit from just reading the ideas alone.
I've put these ideas in the Core Systems forum, which is overseen by KStarfire (the Star Wars Correspondent). He's said that he brings ideas to the attention of the developers, and I have no reason not to believe him.
Of course, I wouldn't be offended to get some feedback on these ideas from KS or a dev.
Oh, and you should go for a corrospondent position when the next time it opens up.
I've actually avoided going for a correspondent slot (not that I think I'd have been given one just because I wanted it). For one thing, I'm not sure I have the time to be as activeas I think a good Correspondent should be in stimulating ideas and discussion. For another thing,I like my independence-- if I were a Correspondent, I'd feel uncomfortable about presentingmy own ideas because it would seem too much like taking unfair advantage of my position.
On the other hand, as far as I know there is no general "Crafting and Economy"Correspondent position. There arecorrespondents for specificcrafting professions, butto my knowledge there's no one person responsible for representing player interests on how crafting fitsinto SWGoverall. If such a role were offered, if it were possible for a motivated and thoughtful player to actuallyhelp get crafting (and crafters)treated as more than a "nice-to-have" part ofSWG... well. I might have to consider trying out for an opportunity like that.
Otherwise, I can be happy just coming up with goofy ideas, which is fun in and of itself. (Have you seen my Player Contracts: A Design Document and Player Contracts: The Short Version threads? I plan to keep nagging SOEto implementthis ideauntil it happens, or untilthe Sun becomes a cold, dark cinder -- whichever comes first.
)
Thanks again for the nice comments, and for the chance to comment again on my wish for Shipwrights and Architects and Artisans and allotherplayers who enjoy craftingto be treated as first-class citizens in SWG.
--Flatfingers
Bugboy321 wrote:
@BleuDestiny
I have read all the other whiners who want infinite item storage, and I disagree with them because I know it's not going to happen. It's not going to happen because for each account, there comes with it a certain fraction of the software, hardware and personel costs incurred by providing the service to that customer. That level of service was arrived upon after careful analysis of their business model and how it effects the ability of the hardware to provide that service.
What they then did was stick their neck out a bit, and the generous increase in storage space didn't cripple the server but at some point it would. And I don't think they want to be around when they have to tell everyone they've got to toss a certain portion of their inventory when it isn't inventory stored using a known exploit, but in their houses and factories. Back to my previous post that you originally said they took something away when they removed that exploit.
You want the benefits of unlimited storage at no cost to yourself, apparently.Buying an additional account allowsSOE provide you additional storage (that costs them in hardware, software and personnel)by increasing their revenue by that account subscription plus the game purchase itself. That, in turn, allows them, if a critical mass of subscribers is reached, to increase some level of service like adding staff or upgrading the server clusters.
So there's my logic, and apparently it is logic beyond your feelings of entitlement.
As for the trials and tribulations of SW/WS/ASresource management,I can only speak for myself, and while I could always use more, I managewithat most 3 medium houses for my tools and resources plus a vendor for storing items I don't regularly use. If you can't do that withjust SW on oneaccount, you need to play smarter.
Whiner? Sure, that's the first argument of someone who can't address issues, so yeah, count me a proud member of the whiners who have effected change. Proudly a whiner. I, BleuDestiny, am a proud whiner, and am proud to have been influencial in the evolution of the game by providing constructive feedback whining.
I appreciate the overt,over the top generalizations. I wasn't aware that I wanted unlimited storage, I thought I identified a need for 3,000 items that could possibly be pared down by sacrificing participation in such things as RE loot, loot kits, FS participation, and such, but thanks for helping me to realize that what I really wanted was unlimited storage.
One thing you said that makes some sense, since it was the only thing that was constructive, is that having another account helps pay for additional hardware and support. I would hope that the fundamental design of the game did not require a customer/player to biforcate their operations among 20 lots just to pay for additional hardware, but point taken nonetheless.
As a customer with respect to SWG, and a business executive who's bread and butter is customer-centric strategy and satisfaction, I take issue with "if you can't do that withjust SW on oneaccount, you need to play smarter." I'm the customer, I know pretty well what my needs are and what I want, rather than pinning the monkey on the customer, I'd put it back to the designers to develop the infrastructure and balance to better meet the customers' needs.