Business And Economy Archive
Thread: JTL & Shipwright Here Yesterday, Gone Tomorrow
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BleuDestiny
Tue Feb 22, 2005 10:11 am
#1
I don't know of a currently producing Shipwright, and I'm about to drop my shipwright profession with a new template design. It was a collosal waste of time. JTL itself seems to have died an early death. The profession of Shipwright was a hollow and unenjoyable experience, on a level unlike any other crafting profession I have played.
Observations:
- Shipwright took far too many resources to grind, and takes far too many resources to maintain, too many to store (with storage so obscenely limited,) was a hog, is a hog, takes too much effort in harvesting and acquiring resources
- Ships do not decay and do not need replacement
- A crafting profession that does not allow a player to make great stuff, is no fun
- Quality resources are non-existant, month after month of garbage spawns
- Unlike other professions' components, a shipwrights components' stats are spread out, for example, 25%/25%/25%/25% with no stat leading the quality
- Lack of quality differentiation in experimenting
- RE'ing is a quagmire of storage problems (ie. storage continues to be a major source of grief for players who also craft), is a quagmire of too much work for too little reward. We've had players who have never, after thousands, and thousands of RE'ing, have gotten a single whole set of Firespray discs. It's work with no payoff
- Sales of parts and sales of RE parts is non-existant; most people who are still flying just collect various parts and have a shipwright RE them ready to go in their own tool. The shipwright has simply become a person who gets a /tell that says, "hey i've got 10 parts, can you RE them for me? Where can we meet?"
- Though the devs have done many things to reduce prep time in the game, to speed up people's ability to get out there and enjoy the game, they still haven't done enough, including all the busy work around storage management, and people don't have time or interest in JTL. It's already being reduced to a means to travel quickly between starport. Of all the JTL enabled peeps in our guild, I think 3 still fly. Most have not flown in a LONG time.
- SOE says "the ground based game and the space game are separate," and recent words from SOE around theGCW indicate that they're going to be merged into a seamless experience. OK, so currently shipwright crafting xp doesn't count towards FS, when will that be remedied in fairness to the shipwright, a crafting profession like any other?
If something were done about the economics and enjoyment of being a shipwright, maybe more would keep it, or work it, but its already become just another broken profession. As it is, the ground-based profession and the space-based professions, shipwright and pilot respectively, are DOA.
Message Edited by BleuDestiny on 02-22-2005 09:13 AM
-Devil-
Tue Feb 22, 2005 10:21 am
#2
heh i beleive they designed shipwright to not be a prof that would have a fully stocked store .. other then a few paint kits and some missle/counter crates and a couple of chassis ... it was to be more of a person to person type of profession .. where each part is designed to meet the desire of each person ... as for quality peices ... i have seen some amazing things turned out by shipwrights ... the only thing i have yet to see a shipwright make that still isn't better then a looted item .. is a cap ... all the other items i have seen shipwrights surpass the looted item quality and spec's ... it just takes a little time .. and using the right resources ... a LOT of the shipwrights that came out when JTL launched all used junk resources to make their items .. and then sold that .. and a majority of people took those items as being the 'norm'
yeah it can be hard to do, but it is still nothing in comparison to chef and some other artisian skills ...
the other part of JTL .. people still do, some just use it for travel, some use it as their source of income ... some that is all they play .. its fun .. and is a nice change from the problems on the ground game ... and is a GREAT way to start up on a new server (yes it is possible, i still have a starter TIE loaded now with looted parts and i am at 2221 and not having a single problem killing targets) ...
yes the 'demand' for shipwrights has died .. that was expected ... everyone rushed in to be one, then there were so many that hardly any made credits off of it after people started learning the stats and what was more important ... now finding a good shipwright is about like finding a good weaponsmith .. you will find some from time to time that make ok parts .. but then you will find one that makes amazing stuff ...
snipaho
Tue Feb 22, 2005 11:07 am
#3
Every crafting profession should have a constant demand for its products from the player base. Consumable products and repeat business is a must. Shipwright was doomed from the beginning because ship chassis don't need replacement. Sure, there was the initial demand at launch, but now everyone has the ships they need and don't buy anymore. Looted shipparts are superior to crafted parts, so no one wants shipwright parts. The only thing shipwrights can really sell is maybe missiles and chaff packs.. big deal. I wanted to be a shipwright, like so many others, but dropped it after grinding half way through. I knew it wasa dead-end profession. I don't know why SOE adds broken professions to the game when we already have enough.
Here's some code for you, SOE!
broken_professions_list = (broken_professions_list + shipwright);
JodoKai
Tue Feb 22, 2005 11:41 am
#4
BleuDestiny wrote:
I don't know of a currently producing Shipwright, and I'm about to drop my shipwright profession with a new template design. It was a collosal waste of time. JTL itself seems to have died an early death. The profession of Shipwright was a hollow and unenjoyable experience, on a level unlike any other crafting profession I have played.
Observations:
- Shipwright took far too many resources to grind, and takes far too many resources to maintain, too many to store (with storage so obscenely limited,) was a hog, is a hog, takes too much effort in harvesting and acquiring resources
- Ships do not decay and do not need replacement
- A crafting profession that does not allow a player to make great stuff, is no fun
- Quality resources are non-existant, month after month of garbage spawns
- Unlike other professions' components, a shipwrights components' stats are spread out, for example, 25%/25%/25%/25% with no stat leading the quality
- Lack of quality differentiation in experimenting
- RE'ing is a quagmire of storage problems (ie. storage continues to be a major source of grief for players who also craft), is a quagmire of too much work for too little reward. We've had players who have never, after thousands, and thousands of RE'ing, have gotten a single whole set of Firespray discs. It's work with no payoff
- Sales of parts and sales of RE parts is non-existant; most people who are still flying just collect various parts and have a shipwright RE them ready to go in their own tool. The shipwright has simply become a person who gets a /tell that says, "hey i've got 10 parts, can you RE them for me? Where can we meet?"
- Though the devs have done many things to reduce prep time in the game, to speed up people's ability to get out there and enjoy the game, they still haven't done enough, including all the busy work around storage management, and people don't have time or interest in JTL. It's already being reduced to a means to travel quickly between starport. Of all the JTL enabled peeps in our guild, I think 3 still fly. Most have not flown in a LONG time.
- SOE says "the ground based game and the space game are separate," and recent words from SOE around theGCW indicate that they're going to be merged into a seamless experience. OK, so currently shipwright crafting xp doesn't count towards FS, when will that be remedied in fairness to the shipwright, a crafting profession like any other?
If something were done about the economics and enjoyment of being a shipwright, maybe more would keep it, or work it, but its already become just another broken profession. As it is, the ground-based profession and the space-based professions, shipwright and pilot respectively, are DOA.
Message Edited by BleuDestiny on 02-22-2005 09:13 AM
Let me start by saying I'm a DE. I've been a DE since the begining, so you're really whining to the wrong crowd, but in all fairness, just because one profession is more messed up, doesn't mean the first one is good.
Something I don't think you're taking into account is it took Weaponsmiths over a year to make the weapons as high quality as they are right now. SW hasn't been a class for that long. The whole resource gathering is what seperates the good crafters from the best crafters. This is what makes the Crafting system awesome in SWG.
Architects have a lot of the same problems, and now that harversters and houses won't disappear when they run out of maint, they just pull from your bank account their position gets even worse.
I think the problem stems from having balance. The non-crafters were complaining about lack of quality loot drops and the crafters still have feel useful. Dev's have to balance one with the other.
Something else that keeps people from space is cost. Ships require tons of resources to craft which makes them cost a lot (I still can't believe that SOE said they didn't for see the prices going that high. What did they think would happen when it takes a half million units to make one ship??).
Message Edited by JodoKai on 02-22-2005 01:44 PM
BleuDestiny
Tue Feb 22, 2005 11:53 am
#5
Albeit the "whining" characterization, good points.
Whiners of the Galaxy unite to make the game better! Proud member of Whiners for change, bringing change, effecting change.
BleuDestiny
Tue Feb 22, 2005 2:25 pm
#6
That's a pretty presumptuous viewpoint. First of all, why would anyone think they'd make a quick fortune? Anyone actually grinding and working SW knows better than that, right? Where does that thought even come from? I'm a meds crafter by history, and meds aint no picnic. I certainly wasn't in it for a quick buck, I have meds for that LOL. I don't know anyone of the many SW's that were in it for the buck. It was supposed to be a fun crafting profession, in as much as any crafting profession is fun; ie. labor of love.
Well... uh... thanks for the input. 
Message Edited by BleuDestiny on 02-22-2005 01:27 PM
Ackew
Wed Feb 23, 2005 1:51 am
#7
You know why I think so many people started s/w and then quit. It was because they thought they would be able to makea QUICK fortune and it would'nt be a REAL crafting profession like it is. Once they found it requires REAL work (ie hand crafting)and LOTS of very good resources to make top quaility items they quit and started moaning AS USUAL.
I think s/w is far from broken but its by no means perfect either. We still need to be able to make MUCH better weapon caps and droid interfacesand have MUCH highYPR on engines too. There is aslo too much loot thats WAY better than you can craft now. But i'm still selling and not just missles either. Components mostly. It might be that since ii'm (as i have been told by more than a few people) one of the best if not the best s/w on my server that my stuff is still worth buying but it took a lot of work and a HUGE amount of money to get here. People who thought they could make HUGE sumes of money with any old resources suddenly found out they where haveing no sales after people found out how bad thier stuff was.
its like any thing in this game if you not prepared to put in the time and effort you won't get anyway you can't afk THIS profession.
Xeovar
Wed Feb 23, 2005 4:53 am
#8
IMHO there are two, or actually one reason SW profesion died - besides not much traffic in JTL which is a separate case.
The key issue is component stats - as you can loot better components then ANY crafted ones, all you need SW for is RE jobs - which are more of pain in the backside then a real source of fun for a crafter. Basically this situation restricts shipwrights to provide grinding equipment.
Only part that is a must have is a chasis, but those dont decay, and there are minimal differences on stats between hi-end and average resources, effectively killing SW profession as resource quality doesnt matter.
As for voices that shipwrights are not yet at their maximum as far as product stats go, I tend to disagree - there are many crafters that went shipwright being AS or WS with lots of different resources stocked - and they can produce items that are top what a crafter can do - still FAR from loot equipment.
SW would have much more longevity if space loot were components like in ground game, than standalone usable items.
Just my 0.02
The key issue is component stats - as you can loot better components then ANY crafted ones, all you need SW for is RE jobs - which are more of pain in the backside then a real source of fun for a crafter. Basically this situation restricts shipwrights to provide grinding equipment.
Only part that is a must have is a chasis, but those dont decay, and there are minimal differences on stats between hi-end and average resources, effectively killing SW profession as resource quality doesnt matter.
As for voices that shipwrights are not yet at their maximum as far as product stats go, I tend to disagree - there are many crafters that went shipwright being AS or WS with lots of different resources stocked - and they can produce items that are top what a crafter can do - still FAR from loot equipment.
SW would have much more longevity if space loot were components like in ground game, than standalone usable items.
Just my 0.02
Bugboy321
Wed Feb 23, 2005 6:37 am
#9
1. Nothing is etched in stone, I'm sure that Shipwright will get some loving soon enough to expand on what it is now.
2. You could say the same thing about hogs and resources and sales with any number of professions, Architect comes to mind first, and having an Armorsmith AND Weaponsmith, I think Shipwright is actually easier than those 2.
3. Of the new SW resources introduced with JTL, few them have actually spawned in high quality, so we have yet to see just how good ship components can be with all high quality resources.
4. I don't know where you've been hiding, but we havea lot of newguildies that I've helped with missions and I am more than happy to assist them. They also need lots of parts that I happily provide them from RE'ing the loot previous pilot trainees have provided with the understanding they return them when they move on a level. And the circle continues, and will continue as long as new people come to the game (which they are doing) or old players come back with renewed interest due to JTL (which they are also doing).
5. With the recent expansion of storage space, you should have plenty of space to organize and store parts, especially if you work with your PA and have access to shared storage. Yes, it's very tedious, but so is any other crafter profession in the game.
6. I'm just starting to get requests for new chassis from players that have worn theirs out, so there is SOME built in return business to Shipwright. No less than the return business for Architects, so I wouldn't complain. One problem I see with other SW's is that their prices are insanely high, 5-10 CPU for a one step crafting process that chassis require? So, bigdeal,Shipwrights that have been riding the gravy train have to live with the economy stabilizing now that JTL has had some months behind it.
Message Edited by Bugboy321 on 02-23-2005 08:48 AM
BleuDestiny
Wed Feb 23, 2005 8:32 am
#10
Bugboy321 wrote:
5. With the recent expansion of storage space, you should have plenty of space to organize and store parts, especially if you work with your PA and have access to shared storage. Yes, it's very tedious, but so is any other crafter profession in the game.
Expansion, LOL, that's a good one. I've got 3,000 items, as resonabley demonstrated in another post for any crafter who also enjoys JTL, loot kits, FS resources, etc., reasonable items, items encouraged by the game and SOE, and adding resources as they spawn, with a meager storage allowance of1,000 units in 10 lots. That's trying to get an allagator appetite thru a canary's a55 as my old man used to say.
What they actually did through slight of hand was nerfed storage in crafting stations while granting a nominal increase in other storage, in effect taking away a huge amount of needed storage and tossing us a meager bone in the process. Trying to use vendors and work with 100 item storage per lot is still a ludicrous venture, spending more time managing, searching, sorting, and working around "this house is full" messages all the time, every day. LOL, expansion.
Message Edited by BleuDestiny on 02-23-2005 07:34 AM
winddrake
Wed Feb 23, 2005 8:35 am
#11
Things will get fixed eventually... I see great things happening in the future as long as they don't mess up the combat upgrade.
Mor-Dan
Wed Feb 23, 2005 11:33 am
#12
winddrake wrote:Things will get fixed eventually... I see great things happening in the future as long as they don't mess up the combat upgrade.
the CU will definitely help, but it only helps combatants. what about the crafters? people think that just because buy and consume our stuff and then buy it again that there is nothing wrong, but you see the argument here to the contrary. SW is broken, and i along with many others continually told the DEV team this during the JTL beta. all they did was create another Architect. it is a profession that dies once everybody buys what they need. there is no reason to go back for anything else because the best things you will get are looted, not crafted. plus, major guilds have designated SWs who craft for the guild and then have a meager store with which to supply credits to the city removing a need for many to have to "pay" for anything concerning structures or ships. weapons, armour, food, and clothing are universal. EVERYONE needs them. ships and architecture are not, thus they are broken professions because they aren't required and nothing is consumed and needs to be re-purchased.
as long as there are broken aspects of the game, it will continue to die. we are not asking the DEVs for a perfect game. we are asking them to at least make things functional,and right now way too many things are not even close to being functional. the biggest slap in the face recently is giving armoursmiths the right to craft factional armours. the right for architects to craft bases should have been given light years before one of the richest professions in the game received soemthing else to make it even better... that's somthing like strike 87 DEVs.
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