Business And Economy Archive
Thread: Does the level system turn new players off from becoming crafters?
MasterArtisanPell
Sat Jun 04, 2005 7:55 pm
#14
The new system kept me a crafter. I was starting to become more combat oriented before the CU went live. After it went live I was only a Lvl 13 so I decided that I would go back to being a crafter.
coprezx
Fri Jun 10, 2005 6:44 pm
#15
I'd have to say that more than likely...as post above states...more and more people will be joining up to become a Jedi, bounty hunter...etc...instead of wanting to become a crafter...they'll join up to be a fighter...consumer. Perhaps the existing crafters will see an economic boom? Perhaps they can start demanding higher prices...?
GrandPotato
Sat Jun 11, 2005 9:55 pm
#16
It would make sense for the game to have the noncombat professions rolled up into the CL system.
Why should a crafter be totally shut out from the adventure of this game without running to another server where they may have no friends? I say give entertainers and crafters CLs equivalent to those of combat professions, and redefine it as "Character Level." Scout and Ranger already grant CLs despite the lack of specific weapon certs (as far as I know) and with only one, creature related, combat bonus.
CL would only grant crafters a few things, notably level-based weapon certifications and the benefit of not being penalized by level difference. Notable things it would not grant are: specific weapon certs, armor certs (of any kind), special moves, or offensive/defensive stats.
Justifications should be that every character in SWG is a hero in his own story. Perception counts, and what you're saying to someone who is a vet or a pre-CU newcomer is that mastering rifleman is worth more than mastering weaponsmith. You level if you go combat, you don't if you go crafter. Since it's an either/or in this game, most will choose combat to experience the fun things to see out there. Cutting crafters out of the vast majority of the content of the game because of this gating, arbitrary decision, will deter people from crafting, and will DEFINITELY deter them from dabbling. I could take my master artisan/master DE, and pick up a box or two of rifleman, but why would I? I'd only be CL20 or so... so there's no point. Luckily I have an untrained jedi (no jedi skill boxes) and an alt. The alt took over the business for the main when the main respec'ed out of master artisan/master DE to take up smuggling/pistoleering. I wish I didn't have to specialize them.
More to the point, a character (that's character, not player) who masters an elite profession be it dancer, droid engineer, or rifleman, has gone through significant trials, learned the ropes, and should be granted "CHARACTER Level" because of it.
As for a possible drawback to this system, maybe someone could think that a person would do artisan or dancer to make their combat leveling easier. I doubt anyone would really do that, or if they did, it would be foolish. In the time it would take to add a few CLs using artisan or entertainer, you could add a few boxes of a basic combat profession, easy. Adding a significant amount would not be easy in this way, and the person could just go hunt with a group including a CL80 and get nearly the same benefits (minus the certification). It would just not be worth it to do that for that reason.
I am a game design student right now, and while I find SWG fascinating in its own right, I'm also studying it, the gameplay design and decisions, from a player's point of view. I'd like to get more feedback from the development team. I really hope this is read by them. I'm probably not the first to suggest it, but I think it would make sense.
Why should a crafter be totally shut out from the adventure of this game without running to another server where they may have no friends? I say give entertainers and crafters CLs equivalent to those of combat professions, and redefine it as "Character Level." Scout and Ranger already grant CLs despite the lack of specific weapon certs (as far as I know) and with only one, creature related, combat bonus.
CL would only grant crafters a few things, notably level-based weapon certifications and the benefit of not being penalized by level difference. Notable things it would not grant are: specific weapon certs, armor certs (of any kind), special moves, or offensive/defensive stats.
Justifications should be that every character in SWG is a hero in his own story. Perception counts, and what you're saying to someone who is a vet or a pre-CU newcomer is that mastering rifleman is worth more than mastering weaponsmith. You level if you go combat, you don't if you go crafter. Since it's an either/or in this game, most will choose combat to experience the fun things to see out there. Cutting crafters out of the vast majority of the content of the game because of this gating, arbitrary decision, will deter people from crafting, and will DEFINITELY deter them from dabbling. I could take my master artisan/master DE, and pick up a box or two of rifleman, but why would I? I'd only be CL20 or so... so there's no point. Luckily I have an untrained jedi (no jedi skill boxes) and an alt. The alt took over the business for the main when the main respec'ed out of master artisan/master DE to take up smuggling/pistoleering. I wish I didn't have to specialize them.
More to the point, a character (that's character, not player) who masters an elite profession be it dancer, droid engineer, or rifleman, has gone through significant trials, learned the ropes, and should be granted "CHARACTER Level" because of it.
As for a possible drawback to this system, maybe someone could think that a person would do artisan or dancer to make their combat leveling easier. I doubt anyone would really do that, or if they did, it would be foolish. In the time it would take to add a few CLs using artisan or entertainer, you could add a few boxes of a basic combat profession, easy. Adding a significant amount would not be easy in this way, and the person could just go hunt with a group including a CL80 and get nearly the same benefits (minus the certification). It would just not be worth it to do that for that reason.
I am a game design student right now, and while I find SWG fascinating in its own right, I'm also studying it, the gameplay design and decisions, from a player's point of view. I'd like to get more feedback from the development team. I really hope this is read by them. I'm probably not the first to suggest it, but I think it would make sense.
Message Edited by GrandPotato on 06-12-2005 12:02 AM
Ronaj
Sat Jun 11, 2005 11:17 pm
#17
Personally I like to craft normally, had a level 47 pure dragon crafter in Horizons for example, tailored my way to about 500k gold in UO, so like I said I like to craft lol. However, what turns me off from crafting here in SWG is the complexity of it, I mean I understand it, though I think I might still have problems with a few aspects of it but to me it just seems ridiculously complicated. I was going to do an armorsmith but looking at all the different resource types needed just to make 1 suit of wookiee assault with a primus layer for instance I said screw it, just doesn't seem to be worth the time and trouble.
Feistin
Sun Jun 12, 2005 2:35 am
#18
Ronaj wrote:
Personally I like to craft normally, had a level 47 pure dragon crafter in Horizons for example, tailored my way to about 500k gold in UO, so like I said I like to craft lol. However, what turns me off from crafting here in SWG is the complexity of it, I mean I understand it, though I think I might still have problems with a few aspects of it but to me it just seems ridiculously complicated. I was going to do an armorsmith but looking at all the different resource types needed just to make 1 suit of wookiee assault with a primus layer for instance I said screw it, just doesn't seem to be worth the time and trouble.
Know what? The complexity of crafting is THE reason why im a crafter
captenjonny
Sun Jun 12, 2005 9:05 am
#19
GrandPotato wrote:
It would make sense for the game to have the noncombat professions rolled up into the CL system.
Why should a crafter be totally shut out from the adventure of this game without running to another server where they may have no friends? I say give entertainers and crafters CLs equivalent to those of combat professions, and redefine it as "Character Level." Scout and Ranger already grant CLs despite the lack of specific weapon certs (as far as I know) and with only one, creature related, combat bonus.
CL would only grant crafters a few things, notably level-based weapon certifications and the benefit of not being penalized by level difference. Notable things it would not grant are: specific weapon certs, armor certs (of any kind), special moves, or offensive/defensive stats.
Justifications should be that every character in SWG is a hero in his own story. Perception counts, and what you're saying to someone who is a vet or a pre-CU newcomer is that mastering rifleman is worth more than mastering weaponsmith. You level if you go combat, you don't if you go crafter. Since it's an either/or in this game, most will choose combat to experience the fun things to see out there. Cutting crafters out of the vast majority of the content of the game because of this gating, arbitrary decision, will deter people from crafting, and will DEFINITELY deter them from dabbling. I could take my master artisan/master DE, and pick up a box or two of rifleman, but why would I? I'd only be CL20 or so... so there's no point. Luckily I have an untrained jedi (no jedi skill boxes) and an alt. The alt took over the business for the main when the main respec'ed out of master artisan/master DE to take up smuggling/pistoleering. I wish I didn't have to specialize them.
More to the point, a character (that's character, not player) who masters an elite profession be it dancer, droid engineer, or rifleman, has gone through significant trials, learned the ropes, and should be granted "CHARACTER Level" because of it.
As for a possible drawback to this system, maybe someone could think that a person would do artisan or dancer to make their combat leveling easier. I doubt anyone would really do that, or if they did, it would be foolish. In the time it would take to add a few CLs using artisan or entertainer, you could add a few boxes of a basic combat profession, easy. Adding a significant amount would not be easy in this way, and the person could just go hunt with a group including a CL80 and get nearly the same benefits (minus the certification). It would just not be worth it to do that for that reason.
I am a game design student right now, and while I find SWG fascinating in its own right, I'm also studying it, the gameplay design and decisions, from a player's point of view. I'd like to get more feedback from the development team. I really hope this is read by them. I'm probably not the first to suggest it, but I think it would make sense.
Message Edited by GrandPotato on 06-12-2005 12:02 AM
The sweet sweet voice of reason. One fo the reasons I stay with SWG is the crafting/marketing/economy. It hurt like holy hell to have my Mtailor/Marmorsmith reduced in combat to a 1. I have the advantage of having been around awhile. I have two other combat toons to take with me when I harvest or (heaven forbid) step outof my house into a spinflap nest. But you are correct, post-CU this has all been about combat and Jedi's.
You idea is excellent but the chours of the combat classes will quickly drown you out as they will state over and over and over again that you should GIVE UP your crafting boxes and pick up combat boxes. According to that group of elitists everybody should have combat skills, even if you don't care to fight. In thier mind it is perfectly fine for you to have two or three elite combat profesions but not so for crafters. You can almost smell the tetosterone.
So I applaud your idea even as it falls on deaf ears.
NetViperX
Sun Jun 12, 2005 2:33 pm
#20
Seems to me that combat and crafting are so different that someone going for a full crafting template probably has no interest in combat at all, and all forced combat does is turn them off from the game. My buddies girlfriend and one of her friends, both of whom played all the time,are now cancelled accounts because of the forced combat, and they hate combat. It was bad enough before, but with the level system, and the 1 hit incaps, its just rediculous.
Why not just make level 1 players with no combat profession at all not be attackable. Make them like the White npc's on the map, total noncombat, they cant shoot or attack anything, and they cannot be attacked by anything. They would therefore be barred from all Dungeons and other combat areas such as this, to keep them from finding a way to exploit the invulnerablity. This wouldnt be a problem, because a crafter has no business in a place like the night sister cave anyways. They obviously do NOT want to take part in combat or they would be combatants, so why force them? It just ruins their game. Devs fixed the galactic cival war and removed tef because of all the forced pvp, now how about removing combat from crafters to get rid of forced combat in general, then everyone would be happy except the griefers who like attacking crafters, and we want them to be angry, so hopefully they will cancel and spare us the immaturity.
Ronaj
Sun Jun 12, 2005 5:31 pm
#21
/sign
I think that's a terrific idea, there are absolutely no downsides that I can see and it'd make my life easier too as I had to take a elite combat mastery on my surveyor character just so he could go out and search for spots to put harvesters so I can do my mining contracts, even then anything other than the beginner planets I still have to watch out and be very careful on and I never wanted him to have any combat skills at all but the CU made it pretty much a requirement.
LordMalice_666
Mon Jun 13, 2005 10:27 am
#22
Crafters are getting more and more rare I agree, but I don't think the level system has anything to do with it. Although it is pain in the butt to hunt down a whole bunch of specific resources (even poor quality stuff) I think that even that is not the worst deterrent. It's just that without combat skills your actions and movement around the world are rather limited. Just got ROTW myself so not very familiar with its content but I'm guessing there's very little for a crafter in that expansion.
It's not just the new players who want to explore the world and try out things who leave the crafting for others. Veterans who have seen the game pretty much inside and out are mainly focused in exploring the expansions... and if you want to explore Kashyyk and do all or most of the quests the crafting option is out. Don't really know if hardcore crafters should even think about buying ROTW. Those who have finished their Jedi template might use the other char for crafting but for those of us that have a n00bish paddy can't really use that character for anything (other than occasional grinding). So the secondary character goes combatant too..
I think they should revamp the skillpoint system allowing people to get some crafting skills without sacrificing any combat skills. Perhaps you could choose to be either 2/1 or 1/2 crafer/combatant. Don't really care how they do it as long as crafters can get out more often.
It's not just the new players who want to explore the world and try out things who leave the crafting for others. Veterans who have seen the game pretty much inside and out are mainly focused in exploring the expansions... and if you want to explore Kashyyk and do all or most of the quests the crafting option is out. Don't really know if hardcore crafters should even think about buying ROTW. Those who have finished their Jedi template might use the other char for crafting but for those of us that have a n00bish paddy can't really use that character for anything (other than occasional grinding). So the secondary character goes combatant too..
I think they should revamp the skillpoint system allowing people to get some crafting skills without sacrificing any combat skills. Perhaps you could choose to be either 2/1 or 1/2 crafer/combatant. Don't really care how they do it as long as crafters can get out more often.
maigy
Mon Jun 13, 2005 10:39 am
#23
Feistin wrote:
Ronaj wrote:
Personally I like to craft normally, had a level 47 pure dragon crafter in Horizons for example, tailored my way to about 500k gold in UO, so like I said I like to craft lol. However, what turns me off from crafting here in SWG is the complexity of it, I mean I understand it, though I think I might still have problems with a few aspects of it but to me it just seems ridiculously complicated. I was going to do an armorsmith but looking at all the different resource types needed just to make 1 suit of wookiee assault with a primus layer for instance I said screw it, just doesn't seem to be worth the time and trouble.
Know what? The complexity of crafting is THE reason why im a crafter
Same here and they really dunbed down some of the crafting post-cu, that has turned me off of it quite abit.
Kinshi
Mon Jun 13, 2005 1:36 pm
#24
Simply put .. no.
I have ZERO to fear as a CL1 crafter , because after playing a combat profession, I know how to avoid aggro.
My lil CL1 alt goes zipping across Rori, Tattooine, Naboo, w/o a care in the world, its just a matter of steering around red dots and understanding concept liks aggro range.
To me, the issue has been over-hyped.
I think the difference is if you started that game at lauch as opposed to starting it after buffs were introduced. Back in June 2003 you had to learn aggro avoidance, it was a necessity or you wound up in the cloning center, and having to go find your corpse all the time.
If you learned about buffs, and armor, well you could wear them all as a noob, and suddenly run around with no fear, and with a false sense of immunity. Then the CU arrives and now you have to contend with whats really out there. Your security blanket has been taken and its up to you now to navigate the dangers.
Having a CL1 crafter of my own, Ive come to realize that this fuss over supposedly not being able to function is a bunch of hogwash. My guy is a Novice Artisan/DE/SW/Merchant..he has ZERO combat skills and never will, and ya know what, he has yet to pick up aggro and he goes all over the place, and I have harvester farms all over.
hype I tall ya, all hype. Learn aggro avoidance, thats the real answer.
I bet the new crafters that have entered post-CU are already 10x better at aggro avoidance than most Master Crafters who joined the game in the post-buff era. (simply because the game forces them to be better at it now)
NetViperX
Mon Jun 13, 2005 3:38 pm
#25
This tecnique of steering around aggros only works if your connection is good enough fro them to spawn in time. On my connection, and many others im sure, thedots dont spawn until they are right on top of you,while your riding a speeder. This is why people get incapped and killed in the field by popup enemies. Its not because people are so stupid that they cant steer around a red dot.My main character is a combat character that I have played for almost 2 years, I know very well how to steer around something, and I have this aggro problem all the time. I dont normally get killed from it, its usually them blasting my vehicle out from under me then walking off, which is just as annoying.
fish_chef
Tue Jun 14, 2005 12:00 am
#26
im just glad the crafting system is still similar to what it was for I know the revamp is comming where crafting will get the guild wars like dumb down.