Business And Economy Archive
Thread: Stopping Credit Sellers
Page 1 of 6
Tiliana
Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:57 pm
#1
I know this is extremely taboo to talk about, I just don't get it.... so I thought i'd ask questions to get some strait answers.
First, credit selling to website, ebay, etc is illegal, right? and a bannable offense?
And as I believed it to be so, why don't more people report it? its very easy to find credit sellers, and though they aren't always open about it... they are helpful enough to talk indicate themselves, if you pose as a customer. (I freely admit I would know).
And lastly, how do we report it, and would we get in trouble? There have been times I wanted to report someone for blantant credit selling, but the format for doing so isn't really there. And if I was to get a person to offer to sell me credits (or buy mine), would I get in trouble for reporting them? It would be pointless to report a credit seller if we got in trouble for buying.
I don't know. Perhaps taking out the major credit sellers (they don't switch toons often, I would know... you always see the same people in the same areas, with the same actions / sayings) would help the economy. Not to mention the hundreds of millions of credits that would be lost on a suddenly banned account.
Now, let's see if I get in trouble for implicating that I may have once dealt with credit sellers, even though now I'm willing to try and help stop the problem.
Discuss~
-Azerin Dangerflirt
Pawlin
Tue Aug 02, 2005 2:35 pm
#2
Tiliana wrote:
...
First, credit selling to website, ebay, etc is illegal, right? and a bannable offense?
...
Technically yes its against the game rules.
But SOE has already gone public with a system for buying/selling stuff in game on EQ2 and they talked a little about maybe implementing it on other games too. So its a pretty clear sign SOE has changed course on this and taken the "if ya can't beat em, join em" stragegy and decided to cash in themselves. SOE *might* still crack down on the 'unsanctioned' sales which they can't make $ off of it.
But I kind adoubt it, they never did much about it in the past as far as I saw.
SOE might face a legal battle about it too. I think they're on thin ice claiming that credit sales aren't allowed then doing it themselves. Just my opinion, I"M no lawyer but it just seems pretty shaky argument to me.
mxxpower
Tue Aug 02, 2005 2:39 pm
#3
It is not against the rules, they can say it is.. but legal battles have already been won.
You are not buying credits, you are buying the other persons "time" that it took him to make the credits, level a character, find the good loots.. ect
Message Edited by mxxpower on 08-02-2005 02:40 PM
Pawlin
Tue Aug 02, 2005 2:44 pm
#4
mxxpower wrote:
It is not against the rules, they can say it is.. but legal battles have already been won.
You are not buying credits, you are buying the other persons "time" that it took him to make the credits, level a character, find the good loots.. ect
Message Edited by mxxpower on 08-02-2005 02:40 PM
What legal battle? What country?
As far as I've heard there was one case in Korea I think and Korean law doesn't apply outside Korea. If theres legal precedent in USA then I have not heard about it.
Everyone says the "your buying my time" thing in the eBay auctions. But that doesn't make it legal. THe EULA for SWG explicitly forbids sale of credits.
Giamai
Tue Aug 02, 2005 4:35 pm
#5
Tiliana wrote:
I know this is extremely taboo to talk about, I just don't get it.... so I thought i'd ask questions to get some strait answers.
First, credit selling to website, ebay, etc is illegal, right? and a bannable offense?
And as I believed it to be so, why don't more people report it? its very easy to find credit sellers, and though they aren't always open about it... they are helpful enough to talk indicate themselves, if you pose as a customer. (I freely admit I would know).
And lastly, how do we report it, and would we get in trouble? There have been times I wanted to report someone for blantant credit selling, but the format for doing so isn't really there. And if I was to get a person to offer to sell me credits (or buy mine), would I get in trouble for reporting them? It would be pointless to report a credit seller if we got in trouble for buying.
I don't know. Perhaps taking out the major credit sellers (they don't switch toons often, I would know... you always see the same people in the same areas, with the same actions / sayings) would help the economy. Not to mention the hundreds of millions of credits that would be lost on a suddenly banned account.
Now, let's see if I get in trouble for implicating that I may have once dealt with credit sellers, even though now I'm willing to try and help stop the problem.
Discuss~
-Azerin Dangerflirt
if you had seen definitive proof of credit selling, then you could /report them. but i'm guessing what you are really saying is that you know who the local loot h00rs are on your server.
that isn't the same thing...while it may be true that all credit sellers are loot h00rs (and thats debatable) not all loot h00rs are necessarily credit sellers
in fact, having spoken in person with someone at fanfest who was a devoted credit seller, the key was to change characters/accounts regularly. you keep one main but the actual seller is an expendable alt, one created on a different computer with a different isp using a different payment method. large money transfers can be traced so they basically are laundrying the credits before transferring the credits to the buyer. and if the alt gets caught and banned, no loss. the main is still intact.
credit selling is not limited to swg, in fact WoW cracked down and did some widespread banning of players for selling gold.
the fact is there are probably so many ways around the controls for it that SOE is probably making a very wise decision brokering the sales themselves...from a financial standpoint anyways. encouraging selling is probably a very bad thing for the game overall
Vastar
Tue Aug 02, 2005 7:18 pm
#6
Pawlin wrote:
mxxpower wrote:
It is not against the rules, they can say it is.. but legal battles have already been won.You are not buying credits, you are buying the other persons "time" that it took him to make the credits, level a character, find the good loots.. ectMessage Edited by mxxpower on 08-02-2005 02:40 PM
What legal battle? What country?As far as I've heard there was one case in Korea I think and Korean law doesn't apply outside Korea. If theres legal precedent in USA then I have not heard about it.Everyone says the "your buying my time" thing in the eBay auctions. But that doesn't make it legal. THe EULA for SWG explicitly forbids sale of credits.
I think I might open a bar in RL. I don't want to fuss with a liqueur licence so I think I'll just sell the time I took to pickup and stock the booze.
I also may decide to start selling pot. If I get busted, I'll only get possession rather than distribution since I've got the old "selling my time to grow it" defense up my sleeve.
I'm not saying I know how such a case would end up in court. I just know that if the "time" argument held up, it'd be pathetic.
smokesomemushrooms
Tue Aug 02, 2005 7:28 pm
#7
I believe that, since they own all "true" property in game, (exluding, of course, time spent playing) They pretty much have free reign with the game, although I don't have any legal backround... So, if they wanted to do it, they could, if they wanted to stop it, they could, considering that they hold the power over accounts and what is in those accounts... really though, why buy credits in the first place? just put your heart and soul into crafting. (no idea, really... this could all be bull %%%, take it with a grain of salt)
And, Tiliana, i believe it is commendable you want to do something about it, i hope you don't get banned or anything.
Tiliana
Tue Aug 02, 2005 7:53 pm
#8
Giamai wrote:
in fact, having spoken in person with someone at fanfest who was a devoted credit seller, the key was to change characters/accounts regularly. you keep one main but the actual seller is an expendable alt, one created on a different computer with a different isp using a different payment method. large money transfers can be traced so they basically are laundrying the credits before transferring the credits to the buyer. and if the alt gets caught and banned, no loss. the main is still intact.
For credit pharmers, multiple accounts does bring a certain amount of safety... for example, I'm really Azerin Dangerflirt, but I was scared to post this with my real account, just in case. Pawlin may know me as Azerin Tech, and for a little time I tried to sell credits when I was out ofa job on his server... and it was decent cash, but I never meta person IRL who "thought it was cool" that I was selling credits, so I stopped, got off my lazy arse, and got a real job.
As far asknowing who sells, I still see sellers on my friend's list, from the various websites, logging in all the time. As an example, Racosi on Radiant is IGE's toon, and he logs into Tyrenna bank for a few minutes a couple of times a day, as he has since I started selling. Outside of the website toons and friends who freely admitted they sold credits in game (oddly,I didn't much like those people, they were friends of business, not enjoyment) I never knew who was selling / buying...
But shutting down the major website's toons would defiantely hurt the credit sale. At least I think, I really just don't understand the credit salebusiness. An offical response would be great on this thread, is there a correspondant?
-Azerin Dangerflirt
Pawlin
Tue Aug 02, 2005 8:33 pm
#9
smokesomemushrooms wrote:
... So, if they wanted to do it, they could, if they wanted to stop it, they could, considering that they hold the power over accounts and what is in those accounts...
If SOE wanted to police it then ya they could ban accounts. But policing it would take time and money. Its not directly hurting SOE when people buy/sell credits. And SOE barely staffs the game enough to do customer support. They'd have to hire a bunch of other people just to police credit sellers.Plus once they ban a credit seller that person would just goget another account and start over.It would be like herding cats.
Geral_Corasjo
Wed Aug 03, 2005 6:39 am
#10
I'd rather SOE be in the middle of credit deals than a 3rd person company. Atleast SOE can verify credits and have everything until their control, instead of the websites that sell millions of credits per server.
Tiliana
Wed Aug 03, 2005 8:21 am
#11
I think a crack-down might slow down the credit trade,I really do. I think if SOE made clear policy that credit traders reported by players (and I mean clearly credit traders, most are very clear about terms of sale) would definately slow down sellers, espically knowing that any sell they make to a company may be caught, and their account may be banned.
Will it stop the big sellers? no, it may slow them down, espically as buyers become skiddish about loosing their accounts. (most buyers are main characters, vs sellers which are alts). And, ratting on people would definately help the economy... every seller account banned has hundreds of millions of credits that will never see 8 server's economies, as they always have huge amounts on them. And all it would take is a GM telling us how to report someone, and what we need for that report.
As far as sanctioning credit sales, like in EQ2, I'm not opposed to that idea... but I doubt it will ever happen, in the same way I doubt we'll ever get an offical opinion about this topic before it gets locked (if it's not forgotten about, that is... not a huge amount of people read this board). Like Pawlin said, a lot of people get a lot of things from it, and the GMs don't consider it enough of a problem... not enough whining about credit sellers / buyers, after all.
I still thinkthe commerceneed a correspondant, as there are so many easily (non-code required) ways to fix these problems... just enforcement of community policies~
-Azerin Dangerflirt
Phonelesscord
Wed Aug 03, 2005 2:28 pm
#12
Meh, I looked into it once, as a whim idea. The worth of credits has dropped. It'll fizz out.
Phaelyn
Thu Aug 04, 2005 4:23 am
#13
Heh - Good try, but you are speaking of tangible, visible goods - IRL you'd be busted faster than SOE can hit the NERF key..
Vastar wrote:
Pawlin wrote:
mxxpower wrote:
It is not against the rules, they can say it is.. but legal battles have already been won.
You are not buying credits, you are buying the other persons "time" that it took him to make the credits, level a character, find the good loots.. ect
Message Edited by mxxpower on 08-02-2005 02:40 PM
What legal battle? What country?
As far as I've heard there was one case in Korea I think and Korean law doesn't apply outside Korea. If theres legal precedent in USA then I have not heard about it.
Everyone says the "your buying my time" thing in the eBay auctions. But that doesn't make it legal. THe EULA for SWG explicitly forbids sale of credits.
I think I might open a bar in RL. I don't want to fuss with a liqueur licence so I think I'll just sell the time I took to pickup and stock the booze.
I also may decide to start selling pot. If I get busted, I'll only get possession rather than distribution since I've got the old "selling my time to grow it" defense up my sleeve.
I'm not saying I know how such a case would end up in court. I just know that if the "time" argument held up, it'd be pathetic.
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