Business And Economy Archive

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Erkman wrote:

if docs quit taking 20k for buffs i think hunters would change thier prices....

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EdOWar wrote:

Sorry, but the Docs still set the price. Just because a hunter starts an auction at 300 cpu doesn't mean anyone has to bid. A Doc somewhere decided it was worth 300 cpu, and another Doc somewhere decided it was worth 600 cpu to buy it out. The buyers are still setting the market for creature resources, not the sellers.

Slim Vargo, Corbantis

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Phaelyn wrote:

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EdOWar wrote:

Sorry, but the Docs still set the price. Just because a hunter starts an auction at 300 cpu doesn't mean anyone has to bid. A Doc somewhere decided it was worth 300 cpu, and another Doc somewhere decided it was worth 600 cpu to buy it out. The buyers are still setting the market for creature resources, not the sellers.

Slim Vargo, Corbantis

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Yes and no. The Docs DID start the trend by ever increasing what they would pay for resources. The majority of Forum posts were titled: "Paying 30cpu for Avian meat" - Followed by the second Doc leaving a post: "Paying 40cpu for Avian meat", and so on until the prices reached the 300cpu mark. That is the illustration of the Buyer setting the price.

Now, Hunters, having gotten used to 300cpu payoffs are assuming ANY spawn is worth a minimum of 300cpu. True, the buyer does NOT have to buy it - but if they are the only game in town, they are now FORCED to purchase starting at the 300cpu rate - Which before was the END cost, and not the starting cost.

By forcing costs upwards in competing posts, Crafters were setting the price. By starting at an already inflated price via Auction, the Hunter is setting the price.

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I still don't see it. The hunter isn't putting a gun to the Docs head and forcing them to pay 300 to 600 cpu for the meat. If no one bids, the hunter can either A) Cancel the auction and destroy the meat (with no profit for all that hard work) or B) lower the min and buyout on the meat (I see people lowering mins and buyouts on auctions all the time).

And no hunter is "the only game in town". There are plenty of hunters in the galaxy, and if they can't sell something at 300 cpu, they'll start to ask for 250 cpu or 200 cpu, or even less, until an equilibrium point is reached.

And there are other alternatives:A Doc can get guild mates and friends to harvest for him. Heck, if a Doc were truly desparate, they could take up novice scout and harvest their own meat. True, it wouldn't be fun, but it is managable.

I still think it's the Docs/Crafters that set the prices for creature resources.

Slim Vargo, Corbantis

(edited for clarity)

Message Edited by RamondChappell on 02-01-2005 09:06 AM

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EdOWar wrote:

I still don't see it. The hunter isn't putting a gun to the Docs head and forcing them to pay 300 to 600 cpu for the meat. If no one bids, the hunter can either A) Cancel the auction and destroy the meat (with no profit for all that hard work) or B) lower the min and buyout on the meat (I see people lowering mins and buyouts on auctions all the time).

And no hunter is "the only game in town". There are plenty of hunters in the galaxy, and if they can't sell something at 300 cpu, they'll start to ask for 250 cpu or 200 cpu, or even less, until an equilibrium point is reached.

Your point is well made. The only inherent flaw I see is that the market has already been brought up to this level, meaning *to me* that THIS has become the equilibrium point. I could be wrong entirely, but it does seem to be the new trend.

And there are other alternatives:A Doc can get guild mates and friends to harvest for him. Heck, if a Doc were truly desparate, they could take up novice scout and harvest their own meat. True, it wouldn't be fun, but it is managable.

I still think it's the Docs/Crafters that set the prices for creature resources.

To the extent that they brought the market to this point in the first place, I agree.

Slim Vargo, Corbantis

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RamondChappell wrote:

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Phaelyn wrote:

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EdOWar wrote:
<By forcing costs upwards in competing posts, Crafters were setting the price. By starting at an already inflated price via Auction, the Hunter is setting the price.
Not true. That's the market setting the price, and the buyers control the market. Had the min bid been one credit with buyout at 600cpu, it would have still been bought out.

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I usually agree with this concept, but seeing a trend *on my own server* dictates my change in beliefs. It's true that if the Buyers hadn't driven the pricing point up to 300 cpu in the first place, these payoffs wouldn't exist. But to say that this is the Market setting the price is incorrect, in my opinion. Setting the Auction at 1cpu min with a600cpu buyout would indeed give buyers complete control. But the inflated OPENING bid is the Hunter setting the market. He is dictatiing that this spawn is worth 300cpu at a minimum. That a buyer agreed with this dictate is unfortunate, as they are now paying what USED to be the high end cost for exceptional resources for an utterly normal one. The higher the market perceives the resources to be worth, the higher the payouts will come to be, and along with it, increases across the board for finished goods.

I despise price control thoughts. I disliked the Ranch idea from the start. But to say that Hunter B will sell a resource for 50cpu if they see Hunter A demanding (and receiving) 600cpu isn't realistic.

Sorry for the mangled response, but trying to preserve your font and still make everything look decent while doing it all in html isn't coming easy.

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Phaelyn wrote:

I usually agree with this concept, but seeing a trend *on my own server* dictates my change in beliefs. It's true that if the Buyers hadn't driven the pricing point up to 300 cpu in the first place, these payoffs wouldn't exist. But to say that this is the Market setting the price is incorrect, in my opinion. Setting the Auction at 1cpu min with a 600cpu buyout would indeed give buyers complete control. But the inflated OPENING bid is the Hunter setting the market. He is dictatiing that this spawn is worth 300cpu at a minimum. That a buyer agreed with this dictate is unfortunate, as they are now paying what USED to be the high end cost for exceptional resources for an utterly normal one. The higher the market perceives the resources to be worth, the higher the payouts will come to be, and along with it, increases across the board for finished goods.

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The hunter still isn't setting the price for good X because it was bought out. If the hunter said 300cpu for this meat, first come first serve, then the hunter might be perceved as setting the price. That is not the case here. A price was set, and a buyer believed it was worth MORE than that, and thus went for the buyout. That means that the buyer of the meat believed that it was worth, at the least, 600cpu. If the next auction for the meat is set at min bid 600cpu, that is still the hunter setting the price according to the value attached by the consumers.

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Phaelyn wrote:

I despise price control thoughts. I disliked the Ranch idea from the start. But to say that Hunter B will sell a resource for 50cpu if they see Hunter A demanding (and receiving) 600cpu isn't realistic.

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I agree. One of the beautiful things about the SWG economy is it has the ability to operate free of any controls and develop a market that runs on pure economic theory. This game is a businessman's dream. It's the first time I've used my BS in Business for anything other than admission to law school.

The ranch proposal as it stands is flawed on multiple levels, as I stated in the other thread. We have a rather good debate going here though, so let's not bring it down with talk of that.

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Phaelyn wrote:

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RamondChappell wrote:

I usually agree with this concept, but seeing a trend *on my own server* dictates my change in beliefs. It's true that if the Buyers hadn't driven the pricing point up to 300 cpu in the first place, these payoffs wouldn't exist. But to say that this is the Market setting the price is incorrect, in my opinion. Setting the Auction at 1cpu min with a600cpu buyout would indeed give buyers complete control. But the inflated OPENING bid is the Hunter setting the market. He is dictatiing that this spawn is worth 300cpu at a minimum. That a buyer agreed with this dictate is unfortunate, as they are now paying what USED to be the high end cost for exceptional resources for an utterly normal one. The higher the market perceives the resources to be worth, the higher the payouts will come to be, and along with it, increases across the board for finished goods.

I despise price control thoughts. I disliked the Ranch idea from the start. But to say that Hunter B will sell a resource for 50cpu if they see Hunter A demanding (and receiving) 600cpu isn't realistic.

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No offense, but you've only cited one example. A sample of one isn't a trend. Are there additional auctions for creature resources where the hunters are setting high prices and crafters are taking the price? How do you know that the auction you cited isn't an anomoly? Have you interviewed any crafters to find out if they felt the price was truly fair, or if they felt compelled to take the price lest they lose out on the opportunity? I think we'd need to see more such auctions before determining whether there's any kind of long-term trend.

I can see where the perception of value for creature resources may have been skewed by crafters constantly bidding up prices...but this isn't really any different than say, buying Tech stocks on the stockmarket. Eventually the prices become unstainable and a "correction" occurs. Even if we assume the hunters can dictate prices, for the moment, eventually the price will become too high to bear, and crafters will seek out alternatives...hence a correction will occur.

Hunters aren't DeBeers. Anyone can take up novice scout and hunt their own creature resources. People can still enlist the help of friends and guildies (as happens in my own guild). In my view, it's still the buyer that ultimatly sets the market.

Slim Vargo, Corbantis

Edited for spelling.

Message Edited by EdOWar on 02-01-2005 09:47 AM

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RamondChappell wrote:
Sorry for the mangled response, but trying to preserve your font and still make everything look decent while doing it all in html isn't coming easy.

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Phaelyn wrote:

I usually agree with this concept, but seeing a trend *on my own server* dictates my change in beliefs. It's true that if the Buyers hadn't driven the pricing point up to 300 cpu in the first place, these payoffs wouldn't exist. But to say that this is the Market setting the price is incorrect, in my opinion. Setting the Auction at 1cpu min with a 600cpu buyout would indeed give buyers complete control. But the inflated OPENING bid is the Hunter setting the market. He is dictatiing that this spawn is worth 300cpu at a minimum. That a buyer agreed with this dictate is unfortunate, as they are now paying what USED to be the high end cost for exceptional resources for an utterly normal one. The higher the market perceives the resources to be worth, the higher the payouts will come to be, and along with it, increases across the board for finished goods.

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The hunter still isn't setting the price for good X because it was bought out. If the hunter said 300cpu for this meat, first come first serve, then the hunter might be perceved as setting the price. That is not the case here. A price was set, and a buyer believed it was worth MORE than that, and thus went for the buyout. That means that the buyer of the meat believed that it was worth, at the least, 600cpu. If the next auction for the meat is set at min bid 600cpu, that is still the hunter setting the price according to the value attached by the consumers.

Perhaps the word I should have used instead of Setting was Influenced. In this case, the Hunter has definitely influenced the cost of the resource by setting a high opening bid. Yes, the consumer felt somehow that the resource was worth the 600cpu cost (As an aside, several of his fellows have since SOUNDLY ridiculed him for paying such a price, pointiing out that they are making a purchase that is not conducive to the resell of finished product) So, I would amend my original statement to read:

By setting a 300cpu minimum bid, and setting a 600cpu buyout, the hunter Influenced the direction he wished the market to take.


I agree. One of the beautiful things about the SWG economy is it has the ability to operate free of any controls and develop a market that runs on pure economic theory. This game is a businessman's dream. It's the first time I've used my BS in Business for anything other than admission to law school.
/agree. I've had quite an entertaining time since the Economy forum was started, and seeing other players thoughts on resource pricing strategies, crafting strategies and gameplay strategies frankly has me hooked to this forum.
The ranch proposal as it stands is flawed on multiple levels, as I stated in the other thread. We have a rather good debate going here though, so let's not bring it down with talk of that.
The idea, though flawed, is an illustration of the creativity of our fellow players. While still not 100% convinced that the idea is at all needed, with the Avian prices going higher, the more viable the Idea appears to be. I applaud Bleu for his creative process. But I agree, let's continue discussions on pricing strategies with the way things are.

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Phaelyn wrote:

As I feared would eventually start to be the case, massive out-bidding of Buff crafters has given Hunters false expectations of what reasonable prices should be. Case in point, this Auction from the Radiant trade forums:

10,256 units of Dathomirian Avian Meat (Otahi)
Stats:
Decay Resistance: 342
Flavor: 198
Potential Energy: 888
Overall Quality: 992



Bidding will start at 300cpu (50k incr).
Buyout: 600cpu

Not a great spawn, but not bad - But it STARTS at over what most people were paying for Avian just 1 month ago. Sadly, this auction was ended after less than one day through a buyout of the goods. This is directly the reverse of the trend that WAS ongoing. Now Hunters ARE starting to dictate the market.

As such Bleu, I'm extending you a full apology. If THIS is what is the future of Avian sales - Your ranch idea is now completely viable, and needed.

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This is Radiant's 3rd best Avian meat, ever (by a wide margin over #4). The two better meats have been out of spawn for 8 months and a year, respectively. (#4 has been out of spawn for 4 months, #5 for a year)

So, yes, this is a great spawn.

At 600 cpu, the Doctor's cost is 13,200-16,800 per pack. Since this meat will likely make the best buffs available on the server at the moment, I'd assume they can easily sell for 25-30k per pack, perhaps more.

Due to the age and scarcity of this resource, it cannot be considered in the same manner as a currently spawning meat. It is worth a vast premium over whatever else is out there, because it is *the best*.

On my server, I've been paying 800-1100 cpu for our server-best Avian meat for the last 6 months. It's no different than buying exceptional or legendary Krayt tissues -- it is worth whatever the customers will pay for the resulting packs.

Anyway, prices for things like this (ultra-rare spawns that have been out of shift for a long time) have nothing to do with prices for meats in-shift. Check out RelicOMO's post on this board -- this is the same circumstance as the 50 cpu 990 stat metal vs. the 1 cpu 950 stat metal...