Business And Economy Archive

Thread: What (further) increased loot means for your SWG economy

RelicOMO
Thu Feb 03, 2005 8:17 am
#1

The latest Testcentre notes mention that krayt spawns are being increased further. I may be one of the few people anywhere who sees this as a bad thing, but I'll try to explain why in as concise a way as possible, because I really believe it is. This is not intended to be a rant of how this will doom SWG, nor is it intended to be a heartfelt plea to the devs to change things, because no developer will ever read this post, much less act upon it. Rather, I just want to give a heads up to those who follow the economy like I do, and to perhaps suggest another way of viewing this krayt population boom.


Firstly, I constantly hear complaints that the krayt boom 'didn't work', that there still aren't enough krayts. This is patently untrue. My guildchat is filled all day with 'omg more krayts'and 'there's another spawn' or 'got another pearl'. I've been out krayting 3 times since the population boom, and it has never taken me more than 5 minutes to find a spawn. When I am pushed off one by a KS group, it only takes me 5 minutes to find another. There are plenty of krayts. There are already so many krayts that the next few points I'm going to discuss are well and truly in evidence - increasing the spawns further will only exacerbate them.


More loot = more worthless loot. I already mentioned (and was mostly agreed with) in another thread that what most people mean by 'I need some good stuff' is 'I need stuff that is better than the next guys'. Increasing the availability of loot does nothing to change these perceptions - all it does is mean a lower minimum standard. People will simply no longer accept any weapon that is not krayted, even if in reality the krayting will barely change the stats. The value of krayt will come down, and while most people will shout that that is a good thing, because now they'll be able to afford krayt, the reality is that the value will come down because nobody will value it any more. And if nobody values basic krayt any more, why would people want to afford it? There are already base tissues being sold on the bazaar - that's cheaper than krayt tissues were even when krayts were 30k HAM. However, even that's a bit hopeful - I don't know any weaponsmith who actually pays for basic krayt tissue any more. All the serious krayt hunters I know don't even keep them - they destroy base tissues, even sets of 11, as soon as they're looted. So common that they don't want to waste the inventory. I'm sure pearls are similar- I've gotten 10 pearls in the 3 trips I've done, mostly premiums, and that is solo. With a partner I could have probably doubled that. I can't imagine any jedi really feels the urge to pay for pearls any more, not when they're this common. If you need more evidence that people are simply considering more and more krayt loot worthless, the first reactions to the testcentre notes on my server forums were 'thank god, now perhaps finally we can get some ancients too, all I've seen in the last few trips are a mess of canyons and juvies, I want some good krayts'.


Perhaps it's just me, but I think that the last thing SWG needs is for krayt dragon tissue to be treated like CDEF pistols. I think the last thing combat professions want is more loot that is so worthless they destroy it immediately. I think the last thing people need is to go out to the krayt yard, see a krayt dragon, and instead of feeling a sense of awe, to think 'crap, only a canyon, we're just going to get more craptacular tissues, what a waste of time'. Having things that are rare and valuable isn't solely to divide the rich from the poor and the haves from the have nots - it also gives things for people to do, to strive for, to feel a sense of achievement over. I was very proud of my first krayt jawa, made with basic tissues many moons ago, and I happily went out and shot people in the head with it repeatedly. Since the boom I've gotten enough exceptional tissues that I had four made with better stats. I want to feel that sense of value, sense of achievement again - I'm sure that's something combat classes can relate to, right?


More loot for everyone = less economy. With loot like this, like Nyax, like Nightsisters, being so much more common, there's simply less incentive to trade. I've already mentioned that weaponsmiths already aren't buying most of the krayt tissue being looted. As an armoursmith, I have simply said that I am not buying krayt scales at any price - people may offer them to my vendors for free if they want, but I won't buy them at all. The reality is that even by myself I loot more than I can use. I'm sure every crafter is in the same boat- they have enough close friends or enough combat ability themselves that there just isn't any need to buy things from anyone any more, because it's so simple to just go out and get them yourself. Sure, a rare +200 tissueis stillworth buying, but again, these things are more or less unique one-off purchases, not a regular trend of buyingand selling. It's not just krayts - Nyax is an easy attachment vendor, and Nightsisters are in great profusion too, meaning that it's a simple matter to go out myself and get whatever I need. In essence, I just became a non-contributor to the economy - I don't need to buy anything, really. Creds may come into my account, but the cycle is broken, because I just don't need to spend on things like loot any more. Resources? A simple matter to mine yourself, especially given that the jedi grind and reduced value of crafted items in general has reduced sales for crafters overall and a stash of millions of units is unnecessary. Organics? Well, I am buying that, but in reality once I have 3-400k of a couple of certain hides I just won't need to buy them any more. The only things I might need to buy are buffs and food, and I can always just give a chef some armour or some harvested organics in trade for all the food I need. And I have no doubt that every single veteran player is in pretty much the same boat - they can get whatever they need easily for themselves, so why interact in an economic sense at all?


When people don't need to buy and sell, there is no economy - it's not broken, not borked, not unfair, it just ceases to exist. And while I'm sure many of the players don't care, I think the economy is the finest achievement of SWG - a player dependent system that doesn't require game mechanics or heavy handed intervention, just a bit of headology and interaction with other people. And I think it's a shame to further reduce incentive to buy and sell between players - there's already so few reasons to interact with others, we really don't need less.

TyfoE
Thu Feb 03, 2005 9:30 am
#2

Hopefully they'll lower the Krayt Spawns with the Combat Upgrade.

Hopefully Krayts won't be soloable with the Combat Upgrade.

Hopefully, my girlfriend will come back with the Combat Upgrade.



:: Tasty Snack åIncorporated ::
Tyfo, 12-point Master Chef at Tyfo's
(3322 -5630, Danevang Mall, Corellia)
Ford86
Thu Feb 03, 2005 10:22 am
#3

more krayts means theres more pearls to drive prices down on people that seem to think they need to screw jedi every where by charging high prices cause there so dam greedy



To Keep The Peace We Must Prepare For War....

Click here for laugh's
LagSolo
Thu Feb 03, 2005 10:59 am
#4

More items does not usually mean lower prices.....take nyax for example......he spawns every 15 minutes or so now....from a former spawn rate of 3 hours or so......


When he was spawning every 3 hours it was usually the same people on my server who were showing up 2 minutes before he spawned and killing him......


Now they can kill him 12 times in 3 hours....and don't have to log....they didnt walk away from nyax with the higher spawn rate....they just stopped logging in to kill him and now camp out there.


Now when the loot that Nyax drops is controlled by a handful of people they are still the ones who decide the price, and they would be foolish in their position to charge less for some of the uberest loot on one of the easiest npcs in the game.......



Illegal drugs are now more accessable compared to say 20 years ao......but has the price dropped?....probably not.....I'm sure the people brining in tons of dope are still charging the same prices they did 20 years ago....even though theres more drugs available for the idiots.



Mokrie Dela..."Wet Work"...Wanderhome
Molon Labe..Jedi..Bloodfin
Niblick Henbane.....Rifleman.....Bloodfin
<Honaris Causa> Petersburg, Corellia

Skuzz
Thu Feb 03, 2005 11:02 am
#5

The recent influx and increase in loot is a good thing not a bad thing. It makes more of the content/options/items available to more players, and thats a good thing. The only folks that will take it in the shorts with these new loot changes are those that used selling loot drops for insane pricesa as their sole form of income. But this is just my personal opinion. I love the new changes and i know countless others do as well. There is a ton of enthusiasm now amongst the community and i think its very healthy for the game.





WOKWOKWOKWOKWOKWOKWOKWOKWOKWOKWOKWO
KWOKWOKWOKWOKWOKWOKWOKWOKWOKWOKWOKW
OKWOKWOKWOKWOKWOKWOKWOKWOKWOKWOKWOK
WOKWOKWOKWOKWOKWOKWOKWOKWOKWOKWOKWO
KWOKWOKWOKWOKWOKWOKWOKWOKWOKWOKWOKW
OKWOKWOKWOKWOKWOKWOKWOKWOKWOKWOKWOK
WOKWOKWOKWOKWOKWOKWOKWOKWOKWOKWOKWO


PixellJ
Thu Feb 03, 2005 11:43 am
#6

When alot of the content isn't accessible by the entire gaming population, there's already a problem in your ecomonic utopia.


I don't see how me spending upwards of millions of credits to get a krayted pistol just to compete with a wal-mart grade Vibro knuckler in terms of damage is a 'healthy' economy. If anything, it sounds more like an unhealthy 3rd world scenario, where your upper class minority controls the vast majority of the wealth.


I also don't see how having objects priced so high that the majority of the masses cannot afford represents a healthy market. A sliced DE10 on my server, they guy wants close to 20million for. I don't think he moves crates of these every day. I've recently come across my first set of tissues and and crystals. I am now a consumer of higher end items. I am modestly comfortable in wealth (ie, a growing middle class, not unlike most western economies), and I can now take part in an ever growingly, more evenly distributed healthy economy.



--------------------------------------

"Doc" Porl Fik'ya
The only thing SOE could make that doesn't suck is a vacuum cleaner. Fix the effing game, and I'll fix my account.

jopenack
Thu Feb 03, 2005 11:50 am
#7

this gentleman has a point


so do a few others here


the funny thing is swg economy doesn't follow many of the usual rules lol

it doesn't matter sometimes how much of something is out there, prices barely drop


and more krayts only mean more of the same groups comming to steal someones elses kill.

this goes on in many servers the same 10 people (guild) will kill every krayt they see regaurdless of who was fighting it first.


one thing that I have noticed since launch of swg is the much of the population now seems very greedy and selfish. many of the older players are gone and there seems to be a new breed here that just want to win or be the richest. its truely sad.


as far as loot goes the devs have increased it to keep people busy, like jedi profession grinding the hunt for loot is now in overdrive.


krayt in my opinion should not drop pearls. tissues sure but pearls no. make pearls craftable by artisans with the right resources.


krayts should be rare a novel to behold and hard to hunt as it was when swg was new.


the farther along we go the more I liked the game of august 03.



SHADOWFIRE - MASTER CREATURE HANDLER / MASTER RIFLEMAN

TEMPEST MTK/MD - WANDERHOME MT/MM -???-???

"Creature Handlers are not 1% of the population, they are over the 50% mark, the 1% excuse is a flat out lie"
Rogue1970
Thu Feb 03, 2005 12:02 pm
#8

Not everyones is a combat class, so this is not entirely accurate. There will always be a need for a supply, and now it will be more affordable.


Prices are coming down too - I've seen stun composite drop from 500k a suit to under 200k a suit on Intrepid since the solo group changes, for example. I expect high end weapons should start stabilizing soon as well.


The changes are merely whitling away at the rich and powergamers, not the casual gamer base. I'm feeling like a Republican was in charge of development last year and a Democrat took over this year. (Sorry for the political analogy, but it fits)



YEZ & GNOINTREPID
Ace Pilot 12pt/17pt/17pt ELDER
Bounty Hunter Master Shipwright

YezStar ShipYards @
Fayth, Corellia Mall
3400 -5825

BUYING Organomettalic (Lok/Kash) 140cpu & Carbonaceous (Naboo) Asteroids 130cpu

JerikSkyr
Thu Feb 03, 2005 12:47 pm
#9






Rogue1970 wrote:

Not everyones is a combat class, so this is not entirely accurate. There will always be a need for a supply, and now it will be more affordable.


Prices are coming down too - I've seen stun composite drop from 500k a suit to under 200k a suit on Intrepid since the solo group changes, for example. I expect high end weapons should start stabilizing soon as well.


The changes are merely whitling away at the rich and powergamers, not the casual gamer base. I'm feeling like a Republican was in charge of development last year and a Democrat took over this year. (Sorry for the political analogy, but it fits)





honestly i'm starting to agree with this statement. I was a big doubter when the solo group nerf happened, and tho i'm struggling to stay above monitarily, as i dont' want to spend my time in game just grinding for cash, prices on things ARE dropping down, its taking time, but price drops are a very good thing in the long run.


by the same token tho, they need to lower the price of harvester maint. so crafters aren't getting the shaft





///Jerik Skyr\\\
××Leader of the InquisitionØØ

Intrepid - Kettemoor
"Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici"
INQ-5
Vender: Intrepid - Antares, Naboo -984, 5999
Kettemoor - Inquisition, Dantooine
FishyDude
Thu Feb 03, 2005 7:07 pm
#10


You know I have mixed emotions on this subject. As for me here is the thing. I am aginst people selling stuff for outragous prices. On my server the other day there was someone selling a +15 Armorsmith Experementation tape for 50 million credits. THATS INSANE. I also see people selling looted pictures for 500k to 1 million a piece, for a PICTURE. SWG needed to deflate the economy. If you ask me the solo group nerf was a good thing. Makes people play the game like it was when I first started. People complaining I CANT MAKE NO MONEY NOW. Well if you are a combat class there are tons of ways. Run missions and harvest hides/meat/bone and sell it. It might take a little long. You know people that complain cause they cant sell loot for millions now needs to rethink the game. Maybe then stop being combat and pick up a crafting profession. The spawn rate is not a bad thing but makes things better. It not going to make things like tissues to be only in weapons only. If you were a weaponsmith you know that tissues really dont make a BIG difference its all about resources. Pearls for example. Why worrie if you are not a jedi about pearls. Just loot crystals and stuff to use. Its all about people being lazy and not wanting to work to get anything they want around here. got to have the loot to sell for millions to survive. FIND ANOTHER WAY.

Message Edited by FishyDude on 02-14-2005 06:38 PM



Atos Reshi: Master Armorsmith

Shadine
Fri Feb 04, 2005 1:44 am
#11

To everyone who posted negatively in this add, i have a question. Would you buy anything that an artisan can produce? (not counting vehicles.)


Seriously? would you? I seriously doubt it. the krayt tissue thing is just a sign, like many others. All this "optional" stuff is becoming so common that it will soon become "manditory" just to compete. All these AA's, CA's, etc.


wanna fix the economy, introduce special items as "Lore" (meaning someone can only have 1 at a time) this spares some things and stops campers.


Make every single attachment lore and people won't have vendors full of the same attachments. preserving some of the rarity that was intended.


Ex: melee damage. someone could have a +1 melee damage & a +2 melee damage. but not 2 +1 melee damage attachments.
RelicOMO
Fri Feb 04, 2005 10:40 pm
#12






PixellJ wrote:

When alot of the content isn't accessible by the entire gaming population, there's already a problem in your ecomonic utopia.


I don't see how me spending upwards of millions of credits to get a krayted pistol just to compete with a wal-mart grade Vibro knuckler in terms of damage is a 'healthy' economy. If anything, it sounds more like an unhealthy 3rd world scenario, where your upper class minority controls the vast majority of the wealth.


I also don't see how having objects priced so high that the majority of the masses cannot afford represents a healthy market. A sliced DE10 on my server, they guy wants close to 20million for. I don't think he moves crates of these every day. I've recently come across my first set of tissues and and crystals. I am now a consumer of higher end items. I am modestly comfortable in wealth (ie, a growing middle class, not unlike most western economies), and I can now take part in an ever growingly, more evenly distributed healthy economy.







I'm going to respond to this post in particular, but what I say is applicable to most of the responses in this thread.


First of all, your postulations in this post in particular are incorrect. Firstly, the scenario where an upper class minority controls a majority of the wealth is not limited to an unhealthy 3rd world scenario. In all healthy first world economies it is exactly the same - a rich upper class minority holds far more wealth total, not just per capita, than the majority. That's plain enough to see in corporate America as well as in Somalia - it's simply an inescapable fact of life. Secondly, it is very much the case that having objects that the majority cannot afford is part of a healthy economy. There are many such objects in all healthy first world economies - most of us cannot afford Manhattan penthouses, a yacht on the Riviera, and several Ferraris. These are all goods that are priced out of our reach, yet people do buy them, and the majority simply doesn't buy them, but rather purchases more affordable goods that carry considerably more value for money. Stratification of goods and stratification of means is another fact of life - your supposition, where the majority can afford all goods, is in fact a sign of a very unhealthy economy.


Finally, your post reflects the same general attitude I describe in my other thread on the myth of inflation. Let's make things very clear - krayt dragons and Nightsister elders are some of the highest level mobs in the game. If they are not the endgame, they are certainly very close. They do not constitute 'alot of the content', as your post claims. You do not need a 20 million cred DE-10 'just to compete'. (Honestly, I'm surprised you feel you need a krayt pistol to compete against a VK at all - all unenhanced elite level ranged weapons, such as DX2s, Elite Carbines and T21s have much higher average damage and dps than a vibroknuckler.) I'm sure I'll be flamed for this view, but I can't buy into the viewpoint that weapons made from some of the highest level mobs in the game should be standard issue to all characters, and viewed as the minimum acceptable standard. Ravage put it well in a post on our own server forums - you don't need a krayt weapon to access 95% of the content in this game. You don't need a krayt weapon 'just to compete'. These are, or at least have been, perks for the veteran players, perks for those who want to buy their way up in the stratifications of means.


For the others who said something along the lines of, this is great, now we can all have the same high end content, I love this patch - I'm sure you do. Let's face it, it looks awesome - krayt weapons for everyone. I wonder if you will feel the same way in a month, when your krayt weapon is exactly the same as everyone else's krayt weapon, and it's not special at all any more. Or when you find that no weaponsmith will buy all the krayt loot you have because it's worthless - there's tons of it out there and he has more than he needs. You still won't have the server's best weapons - those will stay at the price level of 20+ million credits, and the rich people who have that much to spend won't have had to spend any of their cash on krayt or pearls, so they will still have the vast bank accounts to buy the very, very best. You'll simply have a krayt weapon just like everyone else. What else will there be to strive for? Bigger things than krayts?


Again, from our own Valcyn forums, Ravage put it best - there needs to be valuable high end content to give veteran players a sense of reward and meaning. Once everyone has the same, there's no high end content and no sense of reward. Things are valuable because they are rare most of the time - giving everyone the same decreases the value and the sense of achievement, and I can't see that as a good thing.


Increasing the volume of high end loot so dramatically does nothing to decrease inflation, as many of you contend. First of all, inflation did not exist in the SWG economy - those who believe it did are simply incorrect. Secondly, increasing the volume of high end loot will not decrease the bank accounts of the ultra rich at all - in fact, it will mean they continue to hold a majority of the wealth because they have nothing to regularly spend on. Thirdly, what that means is that the very best things on the server, the valuable +25 tapes, the legendary looted weapons, and so on, will continue to go for 50+ million, because they will still be rare, and the ultra rich will still buy them and price them out of the reach of the average player.

EdOWar
Sat Feb 05, 2005 12:13 am
#13






RelicOMO wrote:





PixellJ wrote:

When alot of the content isn't accessible by the entire gaming population, there's already a problem in your ecomonic utopia.


I don't see how me spending upwards of millions of credits to get a krayted pistol just to compete with a wal-mart grade Vibro knuckler in terms of damage is a 'healthy' economy. If anything, it sounds more like an unhealthy 3rd world scenario, where your upper class minority controls the vast majority of the wealth.


I also don't see how having objects priced so high that the majority of the masses cannot afford represents a healthy market. A sliced DE10 on my server, they guy wants close to 20million for. I don't think he moves crates of these every day. I've recently come across my first set of tissues and and crystals. I am now a consumer of higher end items. I am modestly comfortable in wealth (ie, a growing middle class, not unlike most western economies), and I can now take part in an ever growingly, more evenly distributed healthy economy.







I'm going to respond to this post in particular, but what I say is applicable to most of the responses in this thread.


First of all, your postulations in this post in particular are incorrect. Firstly, the scenario where an upper class minority controls a majority of the wealth is not limited to an unhealthy 3rd world scenario. In all healthy first world economies it is exactly the same - a rich upper class minority holds far more wealth total, not just per capita, than the majority. That's plain enough to see in corporate America as well as in Somalia - it's simply an inescapable fact of life. Secondly, it is very much the case that having objects that the majority cannot afford is part of a healthy economy. There are many such objects in all healthy first world economies - most of us cannot afford Manhattan penthouses, a yacht on the Riviera, and several Ferraris. These are all goods that are priced out of our reach, yet people do buy them, and the majority simply doesn't buy them, but rather purchases more affordable goods that carry considerably more value for money. Stratification of goods and stratification of means is another fact of life - your supposition, where the majority can afford all goods, is in fact a sign of a very unhealthy economy.


Finally, your post reflects the same general attitude I describe in my other thread on the myth of inflation. Let's make things very clear - krayt dragons and Nightsister elders are some of the highest level mobs in the game. If they are not the endgame, they are certainly very close. They do not constitute 'alot of the content', as your post claims. You do not need a 20 million cred DE-10 'just to compete'. (Honestly, I'm surprised you feel you need a krayt pistol to compete against a VK at all - all unenhanced elite level ranged weapons, such as DX2s, Elite Carbines and T21s have much higher average damage and dps than a vibroknuckler.) I'm sure I'll be flamed for this view, but I can't buy into the viewpoint that weapons made from some of the highest level mobs in the game should be standard issue to all characters, and viewed as the minimum acceptable standard. Ravage put it well in a post on our own server forums - you don't need a krayt weapon to access 95% of the content in this game. You don't need a krayt weapon 'just to compete'. These are, or at least have been, perks for the veteran players, perks for those who want to buy their way up in the stratifications of means.


For the others who said something along the lines of, this is great, now we can all have the same high end content, I love this patch - I'm sure you do. Let's face it, it looks awesome - krayt weapons for everyone. I wonder if you will feel the same way in a month, when your krayt weapon is exactly the same as everyone else's krayt weapon, and it's not special at all any more. Or when you find that no weaponsmith will buy all the krayt loot you have because it's worthless - there's tons of it out there and he has more than he needs. You still won't have the server's best weapons - those will stay at the price level of 20+ million credits, and the rich people who have that much to spend won't have had to spend any of their cash on krayt or pearls, so they will still have the vast bank accounts to buy the very, very best. You'll simply have a krayt weapon just like everyone else. What else will there be to strive for? Bigger things than krayts?


Again, from our own Valcyn forums, Ravage put it best - there needs to be valuable high end content to give veteran players a sense of reward and meaning. Once everyone has the same, there's no high end content and no sense of reward. Things are valuable because they are rare most of the time - giving everyone the same decreases the value and the sense of achievement, and I can't see that as a good thing.


Increasing the volume of high end loot so dramatically does nothing to decrease inflation, as many of you contend. First of all, inflation did not exist in the SWG economy - those who believe it did are simply incorrect. Secondly, increasing the volume of high end loot will not decrease the bank accounts of the ultra rich at all - in fact, it will mean they continue to hold a majority of the wealth because they have nothing to regularly spend on. Thirdly, what that means is that the very best things on the server, the valuable +25 tapes, the legendary looted weapons, and so on, will continue to go for 50+ million, because they will still be rare, and the ultra rich will still buy them and price them out of the reach of the average player.








Five stars for you.


Slim Vargo, Corbantis

Page 1 of 3
Previous Next