Brawler Archive
Thread: Answers to the Brawler Top 5 Issue List from the devs.
Below is the response I received from the devs on our top 5 issues.
Issue Number 1: HAM Costs
As a Brawler, we stand toe to toe with mobs in melee combat. This means we leave ourselves open to get hit a lot. Using special moves, that are seemingly intended to help us out in combat, actually are really detrimental. Some of the HAM costs for moves actually do more damage to us then to our opponent. Coupled with failure rates of specials, most Brawlers will do more damage to themselves in a fight then the mob can do to them. Having the cost of specials be so prohibitive seems like a shame given the effort put into them. Other professions specials are a fraction of the cost, and have much more noticeable effects.
DEV: The combat system designer will investigate reducing these some.
Issue Number 2: Special Moves
Failure rates on some moves are very very high. Intimidate, Berserk, Warcry, Taunt, can and do fail upwards of 7 or 8 times in a row. Most moves and specials should not be 100% effective, but for a skill like Intimidate, when it fails 5 times, can take out 3/4 of your HAM.
Some skills seem to have little or no noticeable effect on the opponent that they are used on. The stun specials and dizzy specials appear to add little more then an icon to the HAM bars of what you are attacking.
When skills fail so often, or have no noticeable effect, they are perceived as useless. The skills that most of the Brawlers I spoke to had an issue with were the ones that are acquired when getting the novice box. Berserk, Intimidate and Lunge.
Lunge in its current state, is of very little use. I think that having the maneuver do no damage is fine with people, but the general consensus is that it needs to actually put you within melee range of your opponent. After all, that is what a lunge does. It makes you shoot forward, and trip up for foe in the process, but leaving you in melee range of them, not jumping back to your starting position.
DEV: We've reduced the costs on these slightly on Test Center. We may look at improving the success rate but we would like to see how the things feel (and the data from them) when the Test Center code gets published to the live galaxies.
Issue Number 3: Defense
As trained physical fighters it seems strange that we have about as much chance to avoid or block a melee attack as a novice artisan. We may be able to take a hit or two more, then they can, but we will get hit just as often.
In a large hunting group against some of the tougher game mobs, usually a Brawler is the only person keeping the mobs attention, so they in turn take quite a bit of damage, or get incapacitated during the battle. When this happens, the Brawler has a lot of down time and misses out on experience, when a marksman would not.
Brawlers need to be able to last longer in a tanking roll, but don't really need to be made tougher. Adding the ability to dodge/block/parry and possibly at higher ranks, go into defensive postures, would surely cut back on the downtime of melee versus ranged and also balance out the class as having offense and defense, a much more realistic feel for the melee combatant.
DEV: We may increase the toughness skillsets. We need to be careful about giving too much defensive bonuses though. Unlike other game, players are not restricted to one profession. Since they can grab individual skill trees from other professions, we've already seen a problem with a character with way too much defense (unhittable) - that case was solved a while ago, but we don't want to repeat it. This statement is not just for the Brawler mind you, almost every combat class is asking for more defense bonuses.
Issue Number 4: Accuracy and Hitting While Moving
It seems like as a Brawler, staying in the very small window of space that is required to hit your target is not easy. When that window is achieved, why do we have a -5 to hit the target? Just equipping a pistol will bring our modifier to +30. So while a marksman can seemingly hit with great accuracy while running and from a distance, why does a Brawler at optimal distance and not moving receive a -5?
Also, Brawlers are the only class in the game that can't attack while moving. If we are fighting another melee mob, and that mob starts to run away before it dies, we are unable to hit the creature to get the final few blows to kill it. In fact, usually we will be taking melee damage from the mob as it walks away from us facing the other direction. Many Brawlers have stated that just the simple act of trying to finish off a mob fleeing has got them incapacitated.
If we are to receive a -5 to hit modifier, that -5 to hit should be while we are moving. If we can manage to actually stay in melee range of a mob or PC, we should at least be able to still attack.
DEV: The display of accuracy is a known bug which we are looking at elevating in priority. As for the second part of the question, Brawlers can attack while moving. What might be happening is a server sync issue, not a combat system issue. We're going to investigate this further. Further optimizations of the server may reduce this, but part of it is an artifact of latency. We can reduce the perception of latency, but latency will always be a factor of MMOs.
Issue Number 5: Getting Shot Through the World
As a Brawler, one realizes that against a marksman (mob or PC) you need to use the terrain to your advantage to stay alive. If we can't attack while moving even if we are within range of our target, how come our target can shoot us through a mountain or building?
Many Brawlers use good tactics and skill when attacking or taking out an opponent with a gun. Having that opponent be able to attack you when they do not have line of sight, makes it frustrating when we can't attack them even if we are 2m away and they are moving about.
DEV: We're going to work on this one further. There should be LOS checks but they are not 100% accurate from your client's perspective. We can probably make it better, but to make it perfect we would have to generate the terrain again with every shot (that can't happen without killing the framerate completely).
This is a pretty good first response. I'd like to get your input on ONLY what the devs have said and let's try to give them some idea's along the lines they are talking so we can work with them, and not against them for this. Please just use a simple outline to make your remarks.
As for the defense, I agree with the devs on letting us branch out to different combat professions to get those defensive bonuses to stack up. I currently have 77 melee defense and 54 ranged defense and I see some noticeable effects (mobs and pcs missing you compared to one combat profession you mastered). My goal is to get 96 melee defense and 71 ranged defense and working very hard to get there.
But I've noticed a problem with the defensive bonuses against knockdowns. I currently have 80 defense vs. knockdown. And with the melee defense and knockdown defense, my opponent rarely misses when they use pistolwhip on me. And it looks likeI never resisted knockdowns.Because pistol whip can knockdown an opponent (as seen on your combat chat), our knockdown defense should work against pistol whip not just the melee defense (which only makes them miss a couple of times with 77 melee defense.)
So basically they're not really going to act on any of these issues ?
Issue 1.
DEV: The combat system designer will investigate reducing these some
Translation - maybe we may get around to it someday, when we get around to it.Why don't you shoot back with a pistol that would be so much easier, for us.
Issue 2.
DEV: We've reduced the costs on these slightly on Test Center. We may look at improving the success rate but we would like to see how the things feel (and the data from them) when the Test Center code gets published to the live galaxies
Translation - We don't want tomake you as good as ranged weapon users so we're holding back on this until people on the real servers can test this out for us,. We may reduce your HAM cost unless the other combat types whine and cry too much about it. Wait and see but don't hold your breath.Why don't you shoot back with a pistol that would be so much easier, for us.
Issue 3
DEV: We may increase the toughness skillsets. We need to be careful about giving too much defensive bonuses though. Unlike other game, players are not restricted to one profession. Since they can grab individual skill trees from other professions, we've already seen a problem with a character with way too much defense (unhittable) - that case was solved a while ago, but we don't want to repeat it. This statement is not just for the Brawler mind you, almost every combat class is asking for more defense bonuses
Translation - Yeah, everyone wants more defense,. What do you think you are a tank ? Pick up Marksmen and kite the mobs like like we intended you to do.Why don't you shoot back with a pistol while running awaythat would be so much easier, for us.
Issue 4
DEV: The display of accuracy is a known bug which we are looking at elevating in priority. As for the second part of the question, Brawlers can attack while moving. What might be happening is a server sync issue, not a combat system issue. We're going to investigate this further. Further optimizations of the server may reduce this, but part of it is an artifact of latency. We can reduce the perception of latency, but latency will always be a factor of MMOs.
Translation - Yep, we know about but we didn't think you'd notice so we will move it from the lastthing on our list of things to fix to the second to last.Ok, you got us there oh well, we have just added it to the list now, I think.Why don't you shoot back with a pistol that would be so much easier, for us.
second part - yep, you're really screwed and we don't care to fix it, it's the server guys fault.We don't know how these other games do it but we can't fix it, would makebrawlers a threat to marksmen and we can't have that.Why don't you shoot back with a pistol that would be so much easier, for us.
Issue 5
DEV: We're going to work on this one further. There should be LOS checks but they are not 100% accurate from your client's perspective. We can probably make it better, but to make it perfect we would have to generate the terrain again with every shot (that can't happen without killing the framerate completely).
Tranlation - We really don't want to fix this, it would be too hard. It's the server codes fault. Plus the marksmen wouldn't like it.Why don't you shoot back with a pistol that would be so much easier, for us.
DEV: We're going to work on this one further. There should be LOS checks but they are not 100% accurate from your client's perspective. We can probably make it better, but to make it perfect we would have to generate the terrain again with every shot (that can't happen without killing the framerate completely).
They are not even close to 100% accurate. Ridiculous!!!
The Devs on defense:
"DEV: We may increase the toughness skillsets. We need to be careful about giving too much defensive bonuses though. Unlike other game, players are not restricted to one profession. Since they can grab individual skill trees from other professions, we've already seen a problem with a character with way too much defense (unhittable) - that case was solved a while ago, but we don't want to repeat it. This statement is not just for the Brawler mind you, almost every combat class is asking for more defense bonuses."
Well I guess its certainly ok for people to double dip offensivley and get an insanely over powered combination like CH + any other skill and be offensive machines, but when it comes to defense, this is not ok? Give me a friggen break. Yeah this really needed to be "solved".
Issue 1: Ham Costs
DEV: The combat system designer will investigate reducing these some.
I certainly look forward to the findings on which costs will be adjusted. I know that the system designer uses the test server for discerning problems, but I'm willing to assist in any manner which helps the brawler profession.
Issue 2: Special Moves
DEV: We've reduced the costs on these slightly on Test Center. We may look at improving the success rate but we would like to see how the things feel (and the data from them) when the Test Center code gets published to the live galaxies.
Although special move costs have been reduced slightly on the test server, there is also concern to the effectiveness of some of the special moves. I have used special moves to stun a target, but am still attacked and suffer dammage from a "stunned" target. How and why?
I, along with other Brawlers, have incurred deaths and incaps due to using specials "too often", yet I must relate that ranged professions (marksmen, pistoleers, etc.) can spam specials with little penalty. I would like to see more towards balancing this. (brawler vs. ranged)
Issue 3: Defense
DEV: We may increase the toughness skillsets. We need to be careful about giving too much defensive bonuses though. Unlike other game, players are not restricted to one profession. Since they can grab individual skill trees from other professions, we've already seen a problem with a character with way too much defense (unhittable) - that case was solved a while ago, but we don't want to repeat it. This statement is not just for the Brawler mind you, almost every combat class is asking for more defense bonuses.
The brawler comes in close contact with the target('s) and therefore takes more dammage. This, in my opinion falls into the risk vs. reward. I mean, you can go on other "ranged" threads and see where they are making 1000+ shots. We (brawlers) would LOVE to make that kind of dammage. It seems to me though, that we would fair better in groups and tanking by increasing our defensive bonuses. It merely comes down to 1) when we are unarmed/weilding a brawler weapon, we receive the defensive bonus. 2) when we are weilding a ranged weapon, we incur penalties that the ranged profession bares. That only seems fair to me.
Brawlers aren't the main dammage dealers. Hence, think of the brawlers as the marines (leather necks) who get in with the enemy "down and dirty"close. We don't do dammage like a ranged profession, but we do have the defensive bonuses for being tough. Whereby, look at the ranged professions as airforce/artillery who have less defensive capabilities but pack a lot of power in their punch. I dunno. I would like to think that my assessment seems fair to both professions...
Issue 4: Accuracy while hitting while moving
DEV: The display of accuracy is a known bug which we are looking at elevating in priority. As for the second part of the question, Brawlers can attack while moving. What might be happening is a server sync issue, not a combat system issue. We're going to investigate this further.
Please do investigate! Thank you!
Issue 5: Sniped through through mountrains (the world)
It's an unfair situation, but a bug nontheless. I'm sure it will be dealt with in time. Coding issues come into question given the various terrain types and large area of the planets. As someone who's in the IT field and have coded personally, it's tough covering every situation where sniping through mountains occurs.
I want to thank spaz for being a good inbetween for us and the devs. Their responses are welcomed. I certainly hope that positive changes can be made. More profession balancing can be achieved, in my humble and honest opinion.
I will assist if I can.
This is about what I axpected, they will not give us to much at one time. So no-one will be yelling Nerf!!!
On HAM cost you may want to check out my post called "Dagger for Lunge, Ryyk for Body hit"
forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=fencer&message.id=1084
although I will not be surprised if they determine this is an exploit.
Considering that our HAM costs for special moves are 3X what ranged users pay, I wonder why a 'slight' reduction is in order. What balancing issue is it that dictates that our special moves should be used less frequently, with a higher penalty than other classes?
Defense:
There is no reason for advanced range users to get high melee defenses. There is also no reason for a brawler to get high ranged defense. Give us a higher 'dodge' type defense for when we go 'toe-to-toe' against mobs and players.
We are the only class that takes all the melee damage a mob can dish out during combat. Forget about ranged defense, just make our place in combat survivable.
Hitting while moving:
Glad to hear that the accuracy thing is a bug. As far as hitting while moving, we are aware that EQ/DAoC/AC/AC2/UO etc are all melee based and have solved this problem. I believe that with SWG's advanced engine and veteran dev team this can be brought up to par with earlier generation games.
Also, a fleeing mob should stop melee attacking. They do not perform ranged attacks while fleeing.
LOS:
LOS does not have to be perfect. But if no part of your target is visible to the client (graphically), that would be a good indicator that you are shooting thru something huge that you should not be able to. We don't require pixel perfect LOS. But being shot by a guy who physically cannot see any part of your avatar sucks.
Thanks Spaz, and I hope this turns into a constructive dialogue.
I sort of consider this response from the devs to be very conservitive. They are not realy promising anything more then, "we are looking in to it." It isn't a "Yes" but it isn't a "No."
What I think would help with the HAM costs, is to give a skill that reduces HAM costs when using a weapon. Though I would guess that would only be in the eliet level. Much the same way that Speed is on the eliet level. Maybe a "+10" at the Level IV in the Brawler Profession.
Fighint an enemy that is running away is what I would like to see a lot of improvement. It is needed in PvE and PvP. It is all too easy for someone to "disengage" from a Brawler and resort back to some type of Kiting. (Both Creature/NPCs and PCs) I don't think a lantency fix will do it. I would like to see some type of "sticky melee" function. If someone is running away, but not shooting at me, then I should get one final strike. If they continue to shoot, there isn't any reason why they suddendly can keep out of my distance when we run at the same speed.
-gustavef
bah, very unimpressed with their answers. basically everything was, 'meh, i guess well get around to looking into it' the attack modifier one especially has me irritated. its not a display bug its TRUE, i miss a lot more up close in my prime range than my buddy kneeling with his pistol
i think ive had it with this game, im probably just gonna cancel my account at the end of the week. im sick of paying a premium price for a sub-par game
^_^x KD
Is there a thread to post more of our..err suggestions for you to hand over to the devs..or do we use this one?