Brawler Archive
Thread: TOP BRAWLER ISSUES in need of Balancing
i totally agree feathor... there must be something done with the brawler class... especially for the unarmed brawler types...
Please do something devs...
Excellent points.
Like so many have said before me, especially the insanely high specials cost, negative melee range modifiers and lack of melee defense need fixing. There's really no point in playing a brawler, when a marksman can do everything you can and more -- and better.
Last nightI wasout doing a couple of destroy missions with a pistol-using marksman friend. Most of the times he cleared the nests without needing basically no help at all from me (even though hehad Advanced pistol skills and I had Expert UA). He could finish off mobs with only a couple of shots, not getting harmed himself in the process, whereas I had to get really beat up (by mobs and my own "specials" -- I'd rather not call them that because basically they suck) and even needed his help on occasion. I really wouldn't call that balanced.
V-vex wrote:
Lets all give Holo a central thread to read regarding our perceived problems with the Brawler profs that need balancing or fixing (please add to this list) :
1 - To hit modifier at hand-to-hand range. Is this working as intended such that a brawler has a -5 to hit and a marksmen has +15 at hand-to-hand. Would like a concrete answer on this so we can put it to bed once and for all.
2 - Being incap'd by a fleeing mob. I think Brawlers are the only ones you are affected by this. Ranged weapon people suffer ZERO consequence when blasting a fleeing mob, yet as a hand-to-hand player we are getting incap'd staying in range to hit while chasing a fleeing mob. As an example, beat down a red con mob with some friends, it started running, I chased while my buddies pinged from range... I was incap'd by a 799 hit while chasing a mob who has it's back to me... This working as intended?
3. Lack of Damage compared to otherprofs who have less RISK. I am quite dissapointed in the fact that I rush in to get into melee range and my meager hits at Expert Level Unarmed are 1/3 to 1/2 of what a ranged Pistol Expert Marksmen is doing from ranged distance. All mobs seem to stop whatever they are doing to incap the melee guys. How many times I have been incap'd at the very beginning of the fight I cant tell you, but it's just not right... The RISK vs REWARD is skewed for us.
Please add more to this thread so we can get some answers guys. To make it more readable, please use color highlight as I did, this will allow the devs to skim the thread easier... Too much of this stuff is getting mired in posts.
-Vvex
1. If that is the case, then I agree. It is certainly broken.
2. There remains the issue of if you are both reduced so much that a) the mob turns to flee and b) the damage they do to you while fleeing succeeds in incap'ing you, then the fight was an awful close one to begin with. I would think that a fleeing mob would pay a penalty on their attacks on the chaser. If that is not the case, then I agree with you that it is a problem. Aside from that, you can't expect to enjoy a benefit of ranged combat when you fight melee.
3. I don't think brawlers are necessarily meant to match the other (less-defensive) professions in the damage department. If they did, why would anyone play anything BUT a brawler? Brawlers are likely meant to tank - keep the mob's attention and take the brunt of the damage while the less-defensive professions attack from afar. There MUST be that balance, though.
To hit modifier at hand-to-hand range. Is this working as intended such that a brawler has a -5 to hit and a marksmen has +15 at hand-to-hand. Would like a concrete answer on this so we can put it to bed once and for all
/this is a big one for me,,,,and total chicken droppings
Regarding melee damage vs. ranged damage - this is a game and the combat professions must be balanced or more people will play the one that is considered 'best'. I don't think anyone is saying that marksmen shouldn't be better at range, but the brawlers need to be better in close combat. The brawlers need to be enough better to compensate for the fact that the marksmen can kite. It's funny that everyone keeps saying that the brawler should have more defense than the marksmen when kiting is presently the best defense in the game.
Akuna
I think everyone is looking at the wrong issues here. Sure, there are HAM costs and Berserk faults and damage shortages and downtime disadvantages, but every single class has its own fault andthesearen't the roots of the problem. I'm gonna explain, bear with me for a moment as I do so.
Disclaimer: I am pro-brawling in SWG.
What is Brawling? --I've read that people hate the "well look at real life!" explanation for why brawling is underpowered, but we do need to be somewhat realistic....the guy with the gun should tend to win. The implimentation of gunpowder at the end of the Middle Ages is responsible for the end of swords and bowmen, as the invention of the bolt-action rifle is responsible for the end of the bayonette. Does anyone here honestly believe that melee should be "balanced" so that equal level brawlers and marksmen come out evenly? If so, you're probably a bit too caught up with the glamour of hollywood action fighting, and a few years in the military would probably set you straight.Now you just hold on for a second, I did say that I am pro-brawler, so let me explain why I would bother to point this out before you decide to reply with a nasty response. Everyone here can admit that punching someone does not pose the same lethal threat as a getting shot (perhaps some martial artist out there has perfected the technique of ripping through your torso with his fingers alone, but I am going to believe for a second that this person is a myth), and that a sword is as (if not less) powerful as a bullet in the gut (blasters are a sci-fi weapon, but we're going to assume that they have the same effect on a human's internal organs as a bullet, if not being more powerful). -- But all of this aside, there is still a way to both A) Adhere to realism and believeability, and B) Balance the Brawler tree and all of its specializations, through two steps that I believe in my heart I can justify:
1 - Have the Brawler classes cost less XP to increase
I was a Carbineer Specialist in two days of playing for 5-6 hours per day. It took me a week and two days of 5-6 hours per dayto become a Master One-Handed Specialist. I can attest to the difficulty of raising this skill, and considering the fact that a master brawler will always be owned by a master marksman, I don't believe bralwers should be further punished by having it take three times as long to even get to that level.
2 - Have the Brawler classes cost less Skill Points.
Balancing issue? Here it is.Brawling cancontinue to be an ineffectiveclass for allI care, if that's the way the Devs want it. But if the marksman is three times more effective than thebrawler, then marksman should cost three times as much. Brawling kills you as often as it kills your target due to HAM costs, and I am willing to live with this if having such an (apparently) useless skill as Brawling doesn't take up points that could otherwise be spent in something less fruitless. And what do the marksmen have to complain about? If they disagree with this, they can combine brawling with their ranged weapon AS ANY WELL-TRAINED MILITARY INDIVIDUAL SHOULD BE DOING ANYWAY.
I don't disagree that some of the mechanics of Brawling could use tweaking, too. I do, however, feel that these two fixes would make a world of difference for all of us who want to see melee become anything but obsolete. Afterall, Joe Schmoe from down the streetcan pick up a gun for the first time in his life and kill someone instantly in two seconds, while a Martial Artist may practice for several years to do the same just as effectively. But as it stands,they put Brawling into the game, and something has to be done to make it worthwhile for those of uswho have been duped into investing time into it.
And by the way, Melee and Ranged should NEVER,EVERbe compared to oneanother. Each is deserving of its own arena. I hear people talking about making them even, but if you want even, then fight a pistoleer with your own pistoleer. That's even.
See, Brawling doeshave flaws in combat (such as the capability of Marksmen to shoot through mountains while Brawlers are lacking in this bizzare skill). But to make Brawling effective, you CANNOT talk about making it easy to compete with a gunner on his playing field. If anything, Brawling and Marksmen should be TOTALY uneven in different ways. The key here is to find a place in the world where melee is not obsolete, and then you'll have your solution.
You can't cry that the ranged combatant kited you; he was using the advantage that his weapon provides. So, naturally, melee's need a way to get in close to the enemy without having to use their burst run. Perhaps stealth as one of many options? If a skill or item removed Brawlers from an opponent's radar, they would have an ungodly advantage over PvP opponents (especially in city environments) without ever having to do any more damage than they are doing now. See my above post for possiblitties to increase effectiveness in PvE.
Fix the god **edit** lasers going through mountains ITS AWESOME! Or maybe allow me to throw my lance into the air like a missle and have it come down and spear the marksman on the otherside of it!
GG why even have hills? All they do is slow me down when I run up it to get to the otherside to hit the guy who is attacking me THROUGH IT.
Ya know, I don't see the problem. I'm a Weaponsmith, and I'm now working on Brawler, Unarmed and Two Handed, and Rifleman. I'm at Expert Rifleman. I'm at Advanced Unarmed and Advanced Two Handed. I actually prefer to use my Brawler skills as opposed to my Rifle. Rifle's slow...I can only get like 1 shot in, and if it's not a one-shot kill, then I'm gonna die. When I built up my Brawler skills, I was easily able to just run into a camp of mobs and lay down the smack on them. What are you guys trying to kill at Intermediate and Novice that you keep getting killed? I was never in any danger of dying to a Gnort or a Nuna.
As for HAM costs, don't complain to Devs, complain to your Weaponsmiths. A good Weaponsmith can easily use his Experimentation to lower your HAM costs. Also, Vibro Knucklers are a huge increase in damage when going unarmed...and they have an incredible speed too. Considering that you are supposed to be Unarmed, don't cry because the one weapon you can use has high HAM costs. It's all a trade-off, really. Also, using your Stat Migration, you can offset the cost of your specials. Plus, there are weapon powerups available that can alleviate HAM costs even further.
All in all, I think all the problems that the Brawlers list here can be worked around. The one I find unsettling, though, is how mobs continue to hit Brawlers,when they're running. That tends to suck. =(
Oh yeah...the accuracy modifier listed next to a Mob's name is just that...a modifier. Brawlers are already far more accurate using their skills and weapons than Ranged fighters. As an Expert Rifleman, even while lying prone with a +30 accuracy modifier, I still chalk up a few misses. Using my pathetic Brawler skills, I hardly ever miss, regardless of accuracy modifier.
Honestly, just learn to combine skills of one profession with another...as a Rifleman, I get owned if I can't kill the mob in 1 or 2 shots. As a Brawler, I get owned if the fight takes too long. As a Rifleman and a Brawler, I just take 1 shot at a mob, then rush in for the kill with my Two Handed Axe. Rinse and repeat.
The_Swain wrote:
Disclaimer: I am pro-brawling in SWG.
What is Brawling? --I've read that people hate the "well look at real life!" explanation for why brawling is underpowered, but we do need to be somewhat realistic....the guy with the gun should tend to win. The implimentation of gunpowder at the end of the Middle Ages is responsible for the end of swords and bowmen, as the invention of the bolt-action rifle is responsible for the end of the bayonette. Does anyone here honestly believe that melee should be "balanced" so that equal level brawlers and marksmen come out evenly? If so, you're probably a bit too caught up with the glamour of hollywood action fighting, and a few years in the military would probably set you straight.
to set u straight: i don't care bout realism. i care bout fun. i care bout a playable, fun engine that is balanced and fun to play in a "GAME". yes guys... we're playing a game here... and i don't care if a full metal jacket bullet will burst my guts into pieces and a snake-style hit from bruce lee will not - in "real life"... we're playing in a fairy tale world here. where simple guys, living on a wetfarm in tatooine (is that planet for "real" btw?) can do things noone has ever thought of before...
such realistic this game...
Forgive me if I'm wrong (WHICH I'M NOT), but isn't being able to kill off mobs through mountainsbe considered an exploit? I've been tagged by some NPC thug with a rifle before and got away, only because I used the ultra fast run skill, lest had I gone and tried to take him on, I'd have been dead. You see, Iwould have had to run OVERthemountain just to reach him.
1) Why should we attack (practically hugging the target) and suffer penalties? Furthermore, why does our dammage stink? I know a jugular vein when I see one. I know the adams apple also. In real life terms,a brawler 2ft away with a sword/knife/polearm has a better chance of killing than amarksmanhitting the adams apple/jugular at 1000 yards. Devs listening?
2) Why should marksmen (and anyone using a ranged weapon) gain a DISTINCT advantage of being able to tag THROUGH a mountain. On the other hand---ALL brawlers have to get close and personal?
3) I've personally experienced the problems dealing with mobs that run and still dammage. Shouldn't they get a penalty? (discussed by many in this thread)
4)Is there a way that the Devs could give a XP bonus to groups that use brawlers, but yet penalize them exactly when the brawler dies? That way brawlers could get groups but the groups would be liable if their "tank"(brawler) died?
I know this is just an idea. I do feel that brawlers get a short end of many deals.