Brawler Archive

Hey, I thought I'd pass this along, I just posted the following proposal for Warcry. I've no idea how it will be taken. Lemme know if you have any further feedback to add:

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Well warcry just isn't really useable as it stand at present.

The "standard" MMORPG crowd control stuns an opponent preventing movement as well as attacks. As such it allows true control over the opponent keeping them in one spot. Typically it is re-applied near the end of its duration so as to keep a target immobilized while the group focuses on one opponent.

Warcry (and warcry2) are now vastly weaker than that. They do not completely immobilize a target and they cannot be re-applied before the end of their duration. Warcry still has a 30 second timer and only lasts 10 or 20 seconds thus allowing damage to get through. Furthermore, warcry is a cone effect. As warcry is used by those who are typically tanking and allows for no immobilization, it is virtually impossible to land more than one warcry. After that initial warcry, the warcrier is surrounded and flanked by enemies and it becomes difficult or impossible to land the cone effect on more than one. Given the timer, the high resist rate, the high special cost, etc., it simply is not worthwhile to use it in this instance.

The prior restrictions to warcry are that it is highly resisted and has a rather high HAM cost. On top of that the following restrictions apply to its actual effect and limit its ability as crowd control:

• Still restricted by timer.
  
• Does not allow control of spatial location, i.e. doesn't restrict movement
  
• Is a cone effect when typically a brawler is surrounded by foes.

In order to make warcry a useful skill again I would recommend relaxing or altering 2 of these 3 restrictions. I think that removing the timer is certainly reasonable and helps to give warcry a true crowd control element. If warcry has no timer and restricts movement it becomes an effective crowd control element in the more traditional sense (i.e. akin to EQ/DAoC) although it takes the brawler out of the action a bit. If it is AE and has no timer, then the brawler can tank and allow the group to concentrate on a single target. I think this latter possibility is particularly promising.

If only one of these options were available I would say that warcry should at least be made area effect. Without preventing movement and as a cone it is incredibly difficult to use in practice regardless of the timer and will basocally be a novelty skill and not something that sees wide usage. This would be a reasonable compromise although I'd like to suggest one of the prior options as I think these are certainly within reason and allow warcry to remain a reasonably strong element of a master brawlers arsenal (which the master brawler should have seeing as master brawler alone costs more than 80% of the outright skill points of an entire elite brawler profession).

Now this would provide a lockdown of surts, but with 2 of these 3 restrictions relaxed would still compare to relatively weak crowd control abilities in other MMORPG's. Against players a weaker form of timer might be instantiated, such as allowing a short period of immunity to crowd control after recovering from its affects once. If Warcry is AE then it would still be naturally limited by its short range.

StGabe.

Message Edited by StGabriel on 03-01-2004 10:04 PM

Hey, just an FYI to my old forum, I wanted to pass along a proposal on Warcry for feedback. I don't know how this will be taken, but I've just submitted for review.

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Well warcry just isn't really useable as it stand at present.

The "standard" MMORPG crowd control stuns an opponent preventing movement as well as attacks. As such it allows true control over the opponent keeping them in one spot. Typically it is re-applied near the end of its duration so as to keep a target immobilized while the group focuses on one opponent.

Warcry (and warcry2) are now vastly weaker than that. They do not completely immobilize a target and they cannot be re-applied before the end of their duration. Warcry still has a 30 second timer and only lasts 10 or 20 seconds thus allowing damage to get through. Furthermore, warcry is a cone effect. As warcry is used by those who are typically tanking and allows for no immobilization, it is virtually impossible to land more than one warcry. After that initial warcry, the warcrier is surrounded and flanked by enemies and it becomes difficult or impossible to land the cone effect on more than one. Given the timer, the high resist rate, the high special cost, etc., it simply is not worthwhile to use it in this instance.

The prior restrictions to warcry are that it is highly resisted and has a rather high HAM cost. On top of that the following restrictions apply to its actual effect and limit its ability as crowd control:

• Still restricted by timer.
  
• Does not allow control of spatial location, i.e. doesn't restrict movement
  
• Is a cone effect when typically a brawler is surrounded by foes.

In order to make warcry a useful skill again I would recommend relaxing or altering 2 of these 3 restrictions. I think that removing the timer is certainly reasonable and helps to give warcry a true crowd control element. If warcry has no timer and restricts movement it becomes an effective crowd control element in the more traditional sense (i.e. akin to EQ/DAoC) although it takes the brawler out of the action a bit. If it is AE and has no timer, then the brawler can tank and allow the group to concentrate on a single target. I think this latter possibility is particularly promising.

If only one of these options were available I would say that warcry should at least be made area effect. Without preventing movement and as a cone it is incredibly difficult to use in practice regardless of the timer and will basocally be a novelty skill and not something that sees wide usage. This would be a reasonable compromise although I'd like to suggest one of the prior options as I think these are certainly within reason and allow warcry to remain a reasonably strong element of a master brawlers arsenal (which the master brawler should have seeing as master brawler alone costs more than 80% of the outright skill points of an entire elite brawler profession).

Now this would provide a lockdown of surts, but with 2 of these 3 restrictions relaxed would still compare to relatively weak crowd control abilities in other MMORPG's. Against players a weaker form of timer might be instantiated, such as allowing a short period of immunity to crowd control after recovering from its affects once. If Warcry is AE then it would still be naturally limited by its short range.

StGabe.

I completely agree with everything you posted St Gabe. Those are exactly my thoughts i was actually gonna suggest those options myself to keep some effectiveness to warcry. Immobilazation is a great idea because i think this would help with the kiting situation faceing most melee's in pvp.AoE is a must because the very narrow cone effect just isnt cutting it. Even if they did implement the no timer restriction along with the two other ideas mentioned it still would not be overpowered because as soon as any damage is applied to the target it loses the effect.With warcry being as highly resisted as it is its not really an option to spam it with its high ham costs or even to alternate it between specials because it gets resisted so much. Another thing is whenever you do land a warcry you get the message "you have frozen %TT in its tracks". Hmm that kinda means immobilze doesnt it?

You know it seems that way, but actually a mez that immobilizes is the norm for other games (and typically with much longer durations) and isn't really that overpowered.

StGabe.

AoE is, to me the absolute LEAST they can do for us. If I get surrounded by a pack of social mobs, I should be able to Warcry to keep 3 or 4 of them from attacking while I concentrate on one target. No timer either, thank you very much. The HAM cost of it and the high resists make it costly enough that there shoudl be no timer.

If PvP (must.....be.....nice.....) ummmm....people, are the reason why Warcry may get nerfed, then appease those who like PvP by putting faction targets on a timer and increase their resists. If I am factioned, my Warcry/Panic shot is on a timer, and since all PC's resist to Warcry are boosted, it lands less often.

I say makeWarcry2 AoE about 15m (warcry1 10m), no timer, immobilizes them (no movement), and targets I attack are freed of the delay.

What alot of you guys are not understanding is that once you attack or hit something it is freed from the imobilization. So you cant really spam it if you plan on killing the target because at some point your gonna have to get an attack in which would pretty much negate its effects. Plus with the resist level being so poor (i'm master brawler with a +17 intim/warcry shirt and it gets resisted about 50% of the time) its not possible to switch it in between hits either manytimes you'll have to spam it 3-4 times beore it lands. Plus with HAM costs being so high its not really an option to spam warcry 2-4 times to get one hit in even if your buffed it would certinly take a considerable amount of time to kill anything of medium difficulty.

/bump. Warcry is going to be absolutely useless to the brawler after this patch. It must be changed before this goes live.

Warcry and Warcry2 are both integral skills that prevent a Brawler from being kited to death, everytime.

We already cannot tank because of our ineffcient HAM. (obviously the Devs have something serious against tank classes but not pets? Give me a break.)

Now they are taking away one of the skills that allows us to be a pseudo tank? I surely hope the Brawler correspondent (and the whole community for this matter) is "stepping up to the plate" to fight this change, before it's etched in stone on the live servers!

Keep this thread bumped! (And to the Brawler Correspondent: Please make an official petition thread and sticky it!)

I like that idea so the Devs will of course snub your proposal.

BTW What is with the pussyfooting around PvP? I am tired of every suggestion made to teh Dev pandering to teh PvP group. Percentage wise very few people PvP now. I used to until I got tired of the group TEF exploit. Furthermore this game is turning into "A Knight's Tale" online because only the rich and powerful "Nobles" can afford the best Armor and weapons to last more than 5 seconds in combat. I myself can only afford Composite with a base of 60%. And I certainly do not have the million credit hammers you see boasted about in these forums.

The way warcry is in testing right now makes it useless. Altering by removing the timer or making it area would make it usefull in very few situations. I for try my best to never put myself in a situation where im surrounded by multiple enemies, and if it happens to occur that i get surrounded then i would use my area attacks, i mean that is the reason area attacks exist. I see no reason why i would want to use up 200 ham to delay some of the creatures that are beating on me when i can use 1/4 of the ham to use area attacks and potentially kill them.