Brawler Archive
Thread: New Brawler Top 5 Issues Suggestions Wanted
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MasterOfCombat
Wed Mar 31, 2004 6:56 pm
#1
Hello everyone. By now I'm sure you're all pretty familiar with me so I'll get right to business.
It's time once again for a Top 5, so without further ado I'll toss on what appears to be the issues of the day:
- Warcry: As it is warcry is much less effective than it should be, requiring a brawler to essentially kite a group of mobs to effect them with this skill. Making it AoE would greatly improve it's performance.
- HAM Costs: The HAM costs associated with Warcry, Intimidate, Taunt, and Berserkare all high. Coupled with a high failure rate even at master and while using Bio-enhanced clothing. Decreasing cost or increasing success rates would be helpful.
- Polearm Toughness: This is +4 in the Brawler tiers 3 and 4, compared to the +10 in One-handed, Two-handed, and Unarmed, making aspiring Polearm wielders significantly less durable than their counterparts.
- Unarmed damage is too low in Brawler, it is easily outmatched at every tier by the armed Brawler classes. Moving damage and/or speed down from TKN would greatly improve the experience. Also, adding in a low level Unarmed weapon (ie Brass Knuckles - no fancy technology here) would be a favorable addition.
- Most Brawler weapons are unused because they lack an attribute that would make them situationally better than another. This is especially true in One-handed and Two-handed. Altering speed, damage, armor piercing, or other portion of the weapon would help to provide each with a different role.
- Change the One-handed 4 title to Apprentice Fencer, and Two-handed 4 title to Apprentice Swordsman for consistency with other titles.
- Adding additional damage types to the different trees would be welcome
- Change Berserk2 to allow specials, or to be turned off when you use it. As it is, at th level a player recieves it it is lesseffective than using several specials, as well as preventing a Brawler from executing a move such as a: Knockdown, Intimidate, Warcry, inflicting a status effect through an attack. These may be the difference between life and death.
This is what I've garnered from the past month or so as the issues that are important to Brawlers.
If you have any issues to add, please do, and put with ita brief explanation of why you feel it is important (even if it seems obvious). Also, if you have any generic requests to the tune of: Bugand Exploit fixes, new stuff (weapons,abilities etc), or to change existing stuff (again weapons, abilities, etc) feel free to add that as well, along with a brief description of why you think it would be a positive change or addition.
Edit: Also, you don't need to limit yourself to 5 items, but please prioritize so that it's easy for me to present to the Dev's what you all want most. Preventing miscommunication will probably help things bettermove along.
Edit2: Added suggestion for an Taunt into point 2 andUnarmed weapon into point 4. Thanks, and keep them coming folks!
Edit3: Added in profession title changes.
Edit4: Added suggestion about Berserk duration and additional damage types.
Message Edited by MasterOfCombat on 04-01-2004 11:13 AM
M0G4N
Wed Mar 31, 2004 9:40 pm
#2
As a brawler, I could not agree more with the submitted top 5, they're great.
But for the sake of formality...
1. Make Warcry AoE, for the same reason that as a cone, it takes some kiting and a little luck to get an entire mob affected.
2.Reduce the HAM costs of the 4 brawler specials: warcry, intimidate, berserk and taunt (silly MoC forgot my taunt). The failure rate would be much more acceptable if the HAM costs were reduced. As an fyi, taunt is one of the best things a brawler can do to tank for a large group, but for at least myself (a bug with 1000/500/550 mind/focus/willpower), each taunt usage is a mind sucker.
3.Give more situational advantages to the weaponry in the 1hand, 2hand and polearm brawler trees. As things are, there about 2-3 weapons in each tree that are almost exclusively used to get someone to their master brawler and/or elite prof asap.
4. For unarmed, there are two possibilities in improving their brawler experience, i agree that spreading out some of the unarmed damage and speed from TKN could be satisfactory, but it'dalso be goodfor them to have a weapon to help their grind through the tree; in RL they'd be brass knuckles, in the SWU i'm sure the devs could think of something.
5. Not just the toughness, but give pikemen a little boost as a whole. Well, they don't need help with damage, but that leaves toughness, accuracy, speed, and ham costs for a rather large window for improvement.
MasterOfCombat
Wed Mar 31, 2004 9:53 pm
#3
M0G4N wrote:
As a brawler, I could not agree more with the submitted top 5, they're great.
2.Reduce the HAM costs of the 4 brawler specials: warcry, intimidate, berserk and taunt (silly MoC forgot my taunt). The failure rate would be much more acceptable if the HAM costs were reduced. As an fyi, taunt is one of the best things a brawler can do to tank for a large group, but for at least myself (a bug with 1000/500/550 mind/focus/willpower), each taunt usage is a mind sucker.
3.Give more situational advantages to the weaponry in the 1hand, 2hand and polearm brawler trees. As things are, there about 2-3 weapons in each tree that are almost exclusively used to get someone to their master brawler and/or elite prof asap.
4. For unarmed, there are two possibilities in improving their brawler experience, i agree that spreading out some of the unarmed damage and speed from TKN could be satisfactory, but it'dalso be goodfor them to have a weapon to help their grind through the tree; in RL they'd be brass knuckles, in the SWU i'm sure the devs could think of something.
5. Not just the toughness, but give pikemen a little boost as a whole. Well, they don't need help with damage, but that leaves toughness, accuracy, speed, and ham costs for a rather large window for improvement.
Well they haven't been submitted yet, I want to get everyone's input and I have a decent amount of time until they're due, and as I said, please don't feel limited by just 5 requests/issues/etc. If you've got an idea, drop it on in if you think it's got some easy implementation/feasibility.
2. I've tried using taunt and it doesn't seem to help me provoke combat any better than standing at 20m and using Intimidate. Although I might add, using a KD refocuses the MOBs attention on you, and is generally more usefull than just provoking it. I'll look into taunt some more for you though.
3. I agree, One-handed really only needs a dagger then a curved sword to reach Fencer, with an option for a Rykk Blade tossed in. Two-Handed really only needs the the Heavy Axe, the Two-Handed Axe, and theTwo-Handed Curved Sword. Polearm gets fewer weapons, so I'd tend to think it needs less at the Brawler level, except perhaps a better distinction between the Reinforced Combat Staff and the Metal Staff (wood is gated pretty hard in the SR department, I'd love to see it get a lot faster)
4. Personally, I'd prefer to stay away from unarmed weapons (especially ones that... make you faster??) but I'll add that in.
5. Well the LVA is nowhere near as bad as it was (+20 to +30 more accuracy), and it does keep a very important role with the Lance to deliver status effects and other hits that need to land. HAM costs are definately an issue though, and all of the combat Corres have been pounding that drum for as long as I can read posts back.
M0G4N
Wed Mar 31, 2004 10:47 pm
#4
wow, this statement makes me feel really stupid. there are, in fact 5 (five) major brawler specials. CoB (Center of Being) costs a heaping bunch of HAM as well and should somehow be adjusted.
2.Reduce the HAM costs of the 4 brawler specials: warcry, intimidate, berserk and taunt (silly MoC forgot my taunt). The failure rate would be much more acceptable if the HAM costs were reduced. As an fyi, taunt is one of the best things a brawler can do to tank for a large group, but for at least myself (a bug with 1000/500/550 mind/focus/willpower), each taunt usage is a mind sucker.
M0G4N
Wed Mar 31, 2004 11:04 pm
#5
MasterOfCombat wrote:
2. I've tried using taunt and it doesn't seem to help me provoke combat any better than standing at 20m and using Intimidate. Although I might add, using a KD refocuses the MOBs attention on you, and is generally more usefull than just provoking it. I'll look into taunt some more for you though.
as for taunt, it really is a special case, but i do indeed use it often. just gotta learn to play with it. If you're solo, it's simple, once a npc (creature, droid, person, whatever) has initiated combat against something (has the crossed sabers icon) you've gotta be within 65m to taunt, and it'll come running straight to ya.
In a group, it's a little tricky. to successfully pull it off your buddy, you'll need for your buddy to peace before you taunt the creature. after that, within 65m and it's coming.
and like i said in my original post, i wholeheartedly agree with your top 5, both in terms of necessity and feasibility, so i dont feel the need to add anything else 
but if it'll make you happy...
- i would really like to see a weapon cert at master brawler for each prof eventually (but fencer first
), kinda like how entertainer has that wonderful ceremonial (tune) at master. i know it's rather difficult to implement, but i'd like it. - i really like melee toughness, i'd love to have more of it. say, +10 more to each prof, in addition to the extra toughness that pikeman needs.
- i think this is your field, since its in the brawler tree; i think the title for 1hand swords 4 should be changed to apprentice fencer, not swordsman...if it hasnt been already.
- this is VERY far fetched, but i really don't see the point in separating swords into 2 separate trees. it would've been really for them to have existed together from the start, and in replacement, a general support line, similar to ranged.
MasterOfCombat
Wed Mar 31, 2004 11:14 pm
#6
Well I was leaving CoB out since it never fails, and only really shines once you get Dodge/Counterattack/Block modifiers in the +50 range. I think adding some of the secondary defense abilities would proabably be a little bit too good for a basic class.
Added in the Apprentice Fencer change.
M0G4N
Wed Mar 31, 2004 11:54 pm
#7
oh, i totally agree with you that CoB is an awesome ability already as soon as you get more secondary defenses, but I don't think it would be bad for balance if it's HAM cost (a rough total of 190 based on the confines of the rodian secondaries) was a little moretolerable
hehe, this is turning into afunprivate discussion, but for the better of the community...
PEOPLE POST YOUR IDEAS!!!!!! 
AlonzoOdantis
Thu Apr 01, 2004 3:49 am
#8
1. Warcry aoe- like you said
2. Warcry/int/taunt etc dropped in cost or increased in % of time it works, i'd prefer % of time it worked.
3. Berserk needs to be able to be cancelled. Am I the only one that feels berserk 2 isn't a blessing but a curse when it lasts so long? Since you can't do ANYTHING else while berserk its pretty mucha handicap for it to last so long. How about berserk2 being a better effect rather than longer effect (dunno if it is a little powered up but from my tests i can't tella diff)
4. PIkeman toughness, like you said
5. adjust weapon stats and such so that there is a purpose to using things other than, in swords for instance, 2h curve for pvp and power hammer for pve.
6. Different damage types for swordsman
7. I am against the brass knuckles thing only because of the following: We all know TKA is, at the risk of drawing flames, a very overpowered class. This would seem like making the path to tka all that much easier. Though i do have to admit I think its dumb that a vibro knuckler takes "skill" to use...since its just a blade on your hand for when you punch. Perhaps if tka was toned down a bit I could see justifying this addition. I would say no to this until that time though.
NharYstta
Thu Apr 01, 2004 6:02 am
#9
I think whats been said thus far is excellent in terms of what I think would be a nice boost.
1. AoE Warcry - Seriously, lets do it.
2. HAMs on the specials - go for it. Intimidate fails me quite a bit, and it is a huge sucker on my brain. Taunt is great for group hunts, and reducing the cost on that would be great too. Also... reducing the delay on taunt would be nice too. It doesnt *feel* (but I havent tested) like its a 1 second move.
3. Im all for balance. And Pikeman need balancing. Seriously, I think they should have almost as much as a TKA, because of the way block works. Since Swords and Fencers get to avoid damage completely with their secondaries, but Pikeman just get a 50% reduction, they should get some more toughness to balance out the issue. But thats more of a pikeman special issue, so I dont feel too comfortable making comments on what they do or dont need.
4. Good idea with the brass knuckles. There really is a *HUGE* leap in terms of damage from Unarmed 4 to TKN. I never really liked that, and thought it should scale a bit more linearly.
5. Different weapons for different occasions is what everyone wants. Many of the weapons available are basically carbon copies of one another, only with a different name. Its a waste of good artwork, coding, and talent for us to have these weapons that are never used. Rather than making new weapons, the devs could triple the inventory of weapons by just re-evaluating what each weapon should be good for. Why would a Fencer use the "Sword" when its exactly the same as a "Curved Sword"?
Otherwise... I cant think of much for the moment.
zardoz999
Thu Apr 01, 2004 7:29 am
#11
I disagree with adding a weapon to unarmed. I want the grind to be torture, Unarmed 4 to TKA novice. TKA ia the only profession that is actually working and if people think it too over powered try doing it. There should be a great reward for making it to TKA Master and if it too hard to get thru unarmed 4 to TKA novice give up and don't join the club. Remember changing the unarmed skill tree affects smuggler and commando too.
The one thing that should be addressed is the Master Brawler Skills. For the expenditure of 77 skill points the only benefit you get is lunge2 ? There should be more abilities or strengthen the ones there, that are minimal at best for that much of a commitment.
I agree with the stated changes to the other skill trees especially polearm does need a little boost in defense and acuracy.
The one thing that should be addressed is the Master Brawler Skills. For the expenditure of 77 skill points the only benefit you get is lunge2 ? There should be more abilities or strengthen the ones there, that are minimal at best for that much of a commitment.
I agree with the stated changes to the other skill trees especially polearm does need a little boost in defense and acuracy.
ChewGoBack
Thu Apr 01, 2004 8:28 am
#12
My biggest issue in brawler is the unarmed line, damage is too low, making progression slow and difficult compared to pike and swordsman (haven't tried fencer yet).
I don't think having a hard grind to novice tk compensates for tk being much more powerful than swordsman and pike. And in any case fencer is arguably an even match fortka, and fencer is much easier to level.
I used berzerk to level to tk novice and I never considered that I should be able to switch it off at will. After all if you're berzerk you should be out of control 
.
.
MasterOfCombat
Thu Apr 01, 2004 9:19 am
#13
AlonzoOdantis wrote:
7. I am against the brass knuckles thing only because of the following: We all know TKA is, at the risk of drawing flames, a very overpowered class. This would seem like making the path to tka all that much easier. Though i do have to admit I think its dumb that a vibro knuckler takes "skill" to use...since its just a blade on your hand for when you punch. Perhaps if tka was toned down a bit I could see justifying this addition. I would say no to this until that time though.
I understand how you feel, but I like to think of TKA as where all of the Elite Brawler professions are supposed to be. That, and I've never seen anyone deterred by the Unarmed 1 to TKN grind.
Also, to the person who had the question as to the 77 Skillpoint expenditure being worth it: Many times I've stated that the bonuses you get at Master Brawler are fantastic, and is really a necessity for anyone who considers themselves a melee purist. +5 Toughness is a godsendif you'rea pikeman, and is 5% less damage your armor is going to take (so it lasts longer, replacing the big stuff is a pain). Intimidate2 lasts a very long time, cuts your enemies damage in half, and has a very negative effect on their ability to Dodge/Counterattack/Block. Warcry2 will be an exceptional PvE tool when/if it is changed to AoE. With all of the defenses capped, it's really the only choice once you hit near 125.
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