Bounty Hunter Archive
Thread: Fallacies and Truths on the Concept of Anonymous Missions
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Eutock
Thu Jul 07, 2005 8:02 pm
#1
No fancy preamble here, just a note that this is an attempt to summarize the flawed logic behind anonymous player missions.
Fallacy: Anonymous missions are a minor change to bounty hunting.
Truth: Anonymous missions are a significant change to the bounty hunting process. Many of the reasons are hashed out below. For starters, the entire stalking and investigation component prior to pulling a mission are now rendered mute. Intelligence reports from other players on potential bounty targets are now all but impossible.
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Fallacy: Pulling a named mission is griefing and harassment.
Truth: The terms "griefing" and "harassment" are now thrown about and used far too loosely, to the point where their legitimate meanings are no longer understood. By this logic, any group of players in normal PvP "ganging up" on a single member of the opposing faction is guilty of griefing too. Best understood in the context of player missions, griefing would be taking the same player's mission over and over during a short time span, or preventing a player from exiting their current state (i.e. clone camping).
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Fallacy: Bounty hunters retain the element of surprise.
Truth: This is true in a very strict and narrow sense. With an anonymous mission, player targets will now be well aware that bounty hunters do not know who they are trying to hunt. Therefore, unless you are in a crowded player area, the bounty hunter getting to within 100-250 meters of the target will immediately tip the target off of the bounty hunter's presence. If you are a known bounty hunter in your galaxy, then this is all the worse for you. Additionally, targets may employ the use of lookouts to extend their "radar", looking for bounty hunters entering the proximity of the target. Finally, the bounty hunter, if he truly wants to maintain some surprise element, will have to do some sort of rapid /target process to find the correct mark as rapidly as possible.
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Fallacy: Bounty hunters can find out the name of their target, and still retain the advantage by choosing when to attack.
Truth: Assuming that Publish 20 will require bounty hunters to get within viewing distance of their target, there is no "first strike" advantage. Once a target is aware ofthe bounty hunter's presence, the surprise element is completely gone, regardless of whether the bounty hunter chooses to attack 10 minutes, hours, or days later, the target will know which bounty hunter is after him. The only time that an advantage could be maintained is when a target is in a crowded area, which would still be problematic for "known" bounty hunters.
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Fallacy: Knowing the online status of a target is sufficient compensation for removal of the target's name.
Truth: Giving the implication in the Publish 20 patch notes, the terminals will only show present online targets. However, immediately after that display, there is no guarantee of the target's status. There is adequate room for targets to game the system by regularly logging off and on at frequent periods. Plus, there is the practical knowledge of understanding a named target's behavior patterns that are extraordinarily useful, such as learning when they are usually online and when they logoff for the night.
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Fallacy: Providing the name of the target at some time later in the process (like when the Arakyd transmitsthe location to the bounty hunter) will remedy the circumstances created by anonymous missions. (added July 11th, 2005)
Truth: The reason this statement is not true is a bit complicated. If the intent of anonymous missions is to prevent "griefing", then providing the name at any time prior to the initial encounter (whether the BH attacks or not) could lead to the same conditions that cause alledged griefing. For example, a gank squad could keep launching Arakyds until all members of the squad have the same mission. This may be even easier now given that only online targets will appear on the terminals. In other words, providing the name at some stage of the process invalidates the original (popularly accepted) reason for anonymous missions in the first place. The end result of this would be to keep pushing the name gathering point further and further into the process, generally by hamstringing or delaying the various BH tools and procedures (e.g. removing the Kaadara SpyNet Operative, or increasing the wait times on Arakyds substantially).
A key argument for needing the target's name is the ability to "tab" to the target as quickly as possible. This is correct, among other reasons. Assuming that anonymous missions are going to be permanent, then a way to circumvent the complications mentioned above is to add a new command /targetmark which would automatically target the bounty hunter's current mark without having to know the name.
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Fallacy: Bounty hunters can still adequately prepare for their first strike.
Truth: Much of the preparation in going after known targets is all about tailoring your tactics and understanding your target's behavior patterns. This is done through prior investigation, intelligence from other players, previous encounters with the target, and time invested is observing the target as discretely as possible from anappropriate distance. Since bounty hunters will have to get within viewing distance of their target, the target's behavior patterns will be altered due to the known presence of a bounty hunter, nullifying a great number of preparation and first strike advantages.
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Fallacy: A payout of 40-50k plus a kill bonus is sufficient compensation.
Truth: This is actually probably true, but the key here is not knowing the level of your target. This is simple risk vs. reward problem. Lower-level payout targets should equate to "easier" missions, with higher-payouts harder. Not knowing the exact bounty payout turns the process into a form of gambling instead of investing in calculated risks. Consider, for example, that use of a 50k R3 bomb droid would be pointless if you have no idea how much reward is possible to cover the expense of that BH tool.
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Fallacy: Bounty hunting is going to "suck" with anonymous missions.
Truth: This is a matter of personal opinion. If you as a bounty hunter want to hunt anonymous targets, that is your prerogative. However, the points above illustrate why anonymous missions fundamentally change the player bounty process in a manner that seriously hamstring the bounty hunting process from what it is commonly accepted to be.
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Fallacy: Posting "cry more noob" to opposition against an SOE-supported change proves the argument is wrong.
Truth: It is the sign of a weak and dull mind, incapable of articulating any reasonable counter-argument.
Message Edited by Eutock on 07-11-2005 12:34 AM
RAMBOW
Thu Jul 07, 2005 8:25 pm
#2
Fallacy: Knowing the online status of a target is sufficient compensation for removal of the target's name.
Truth: Giving the implication in the Publish 20 patch notes, the terminals will only show present online targets. However, immediately after that display, there is no guarantee of the target's status. There is adequate room for targets to game the system by regularly logging off and on at frequent periods. Plus, there is the practical knowledge of understanding a named target's behavior patterns that are extraordinarily useful, such as learning when they are usually online and when they logoff for the night.
No doubt.... How hard was it to add a Jedi to your friends list to see if they are online and when they log off? To the people who love the "online only" change... Try actually being a BH... We got "online" and lost names.... if you think that is a good thing you need to leave our profession...
DoMakk
Thu Jul 07, 2005 8:30 pm
#3
Since only Master Bounty Hunters will be able to take Jedi missions...the 'mastered' tag will now show. That's one of the things I look for when examining player when hunting/hanging with my Jedi friends.
Oss_Wilum
Thu Jul 07, 2005 9:05 pm
#5
NoStyleGuy wrote:
very objective report. imho we got the shaft
i still don't agree that you're off as bad as you will be, but i'm wasting my breath saying so.
if publish 20 does "shaft" bounty hunter, at least it will have been someone OTHER than jedi for 1 publish
Xorbok
Thu Jul 07, 2005 9:13 pm
#6
Eutock wrote:
No fancy preamble here, just a note that this is an attempt to summarize the flawed logic behind anonymous player missions.
Fallacy: Anonymous missions are a minor change to bounty hunting.
Truth: Anonymous missions are a significant change to the bounty hunting process. Many of the reasons are hashed out below. For starters, the entire stalking and investigation component prior to pulling a mission are now rendered mute. Intelligence reports from other players on potential bounty targets are now all but impossible.
This can still be done AFTER you get the mission and identify your target
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Fallacy: Pulling a named mission is griefing and harassment.
Truth: The terms "griefing" and "harassment" are now thrown about and used far too loosely, to the point where their legitimate meanings are no longer understood. By this logic, any group of players in normal PvP "ganging up" on a single member of the opposing faction is guilty of griefing too. Best understood in the context of player missions, griefing would be taking the same player's mission over and over during a short time span, or preventing a player from exiting their current state (i.e. clone camping).
I agree
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Fallacy: Bounty hunters retain the element of surprise.
Truth: This is true in a very strict and narrow sense. With an anonymous mission, player targets will now be well aware that bounty hunters do not know who they are trying to hunt. Therefore, unless you are in a crowded player area, the bounty hunter getting to within 100-250 meters of the target will immediately tip the target off of the bounty hunter's presence. If you are a known bounty hunter in your galaxy, then this is all the worse for you. Additionally, targets may employ the use of lookouts to extend their "radar", looking for bounty hunters entering the proximity of the target. Finally, the bounty hunter, if he truly wants to maintain some surprise element, will have to do some sort of rapid /target process to find the correct mark as rapidly as possible.
This is true if you are the ONLY bounty hunter in the galaxy. Its not hard to ge on you swoop, fly by the grinding jedi or whatever he/she is doing, target him to get the name, then continue on. NOW ..... the hunt begins with the element of surprise.
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Fallacy: Bounty hunters can find out the name of their target, and still retain the advantage by choosing when to attack.
Truth: Assuming that Publish 20 will require bounty hunters to get within viewing distance of their target, there is no "first strike" advantage. Once a target is aware ofthe bounty hunter's presence, the surprise element is completely gone, regardless of whether the bounty hunter chooses to attack 10 minutes, hours, or days later, the target will know which bounty hunter is after him. The only time that an advantage could be maintained is when a target is in a crowded area, which would still be problematic for "known" bounty hunters.
See above, this logic is true if there are no other BH in the galaxy, which i doubt is the case.
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Fallacy: Knowing the online status of a target is sufficient compensation for removal of the target's name.
Truth: Giving the implication in the Publish 20 patch notes, the terminals will only show present online targets. However, immediately after that display, there is no guarantee of the target's status. There is adequate room for targets to game the system by regularly logging off and on at frequent periods. Plus, there is the practical knowledge of understanding a named target's behavior patterns that are extraordinarily useful, such as learning when they are usually online and when they logoff for the night.
You dont know when they are logging off now anyway, just ID them and add them periodically to your friends list to verify they are on line, and stalk to your hearts content...
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Fallacy: Bounty hunters can still adequately prepare for their first strike.
Truth: Much of the preparation in going after known targets is all about tailoring your tactics and understanding your target's behavior patterns. This is done through prior investigation, intelligence from other players, previous encounters with the target, and time invested is observing the target as discretely as possible from anappropriate distance. Since bounty hunters will have to get within viewing distance of their target, the target's behavior patterns will be altered due to the known presence of a bounty hunter, nullifying a great number of preparation and first strike advantages.
Not if you take a second to identify them then observe as you do now. If you will be seen by a jedi after patch 20, they can and probably do see you now, maybe you need practice with this, it seems to be your main hang up ...
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Fallacy: A payout of 40-50k plus a kill bonus is sufficient compensation.
Truth: This is actually probably true, but the key here is not knowing the level of your target. This is simple risk vs. reward problem. Lower-level payout targets should equate to "easier" missions, with higher-payouts harder. Not knowing the exact bounty payout turns the process into a form of gambling instead of investing in calculated risks.
----------------------------------------
Fallacy: Bounty hunting is going to "suck" with anonymous missions.
Truth: This is a matter of personal opinion. If you as a bounty hunter want to hunt anonymous targets, that is your prerogative. However, the points above illustrate why anonymous missions fundamentally change the player bounty process in a manner that seriously hamstring the bounty hunting process from what it is commonly accepted to be.
Just a minor change, you just identify them AFTER you get the mission is all, not that hard. If you have the "stalking" ability you apparently think you do, it wont be hard to identify them anyway. It just adds one additional step in the hunting process is all. Identify your target, stalk and kill as before.
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Fallacy: Posting "cry more noob" to opposition against an SOE-supported change proves the argument is wrong.
Truth: It is the sign of a weak and dull mind, incapable of articulating any reasonable counter-argument.
I agree
Cry more noob 
Eleutherios
Thu Jul 07, 2005 9:16 pm
#7
Sticky please.
Also, 50k is not equivalent to the time you spend and the difficulty of the mission. But I hear rumors that a "bonus" is added to the 50k to make it roughly what it is now. But we'll have to see.
AndJusticeForAll
Thu Jul 07, 2005 9:20 pm
#8
maybe they should just have named missions for high lvl jedi
Nathanielstarr
Thu Jul 07, 2005 9:26 pm
#9
Fallacy: You can play a variety of professions in Star Wars galaxies and enjoy them.
Truth: You are supposed to go Jedi.
Dlek_Krego
Thu Jul 07, 2005 9:29 pm
#10
Eutock wrote:
Fallacy: Posting "cry more noob" to opposition against an SOE-supported change proves the argument is wrong.Truth: It is the sign of a weak and dull mind, incapable of articulating any reasonable counter-argument.
cry more noob
Hcaz
Thu Jul 07, 2005 9:29 pm
#11
AndJusticeForAll wrote:
maybe they should just have named missions for high lvl jedi
QFE
Agreed. In most cases the high level jedi usually like to be hunted. And actually enjoy the PvP Challenge. Completed template jedi should have names on the terminals.
Nathanielstarr
Thu Jul 07, 2005 9:31 pm
#12
Hcaz wrote:
AndJusticeForAll wrote:
maybe they should just have named missions for high lvl jedi
QFE
Agreed. In most cases the high level jedi usually like to be hunted. And actually enjoy the PvP Challenge. Completed template jedi should have names on the terminals.
You'll end up fighting almost all finished or near finished templates anyway. Most jedi have completed their templates now with double xp and the Ryatt spawn. Try it go grab the next online mission you find and I bet it's over 220k.
I thought jedi were supposed to reduce visibility but now you can have jedi just doing whatever they want in a starport and you can't go get their mission.
Issik
Thu Jul 07, 2005 9:36 pm
#13
Hcaz wrote:
AndJusticeForAll wrote:
maybe they should just have named missions for high lvl jedi
QFE
Agreed. In most cases the high level jedi usually like to be hunted. And actually enjoy the PvP Challenge. Completed template jedi should have names on the terminals.
That, or have the seeker droid give you the jedi's name once on the same planet.
From an RP standpoint, the seeker could get an image capture of the jedi's face and compare it to the known logs of jedi stolen from the enclaves. It would give smugglers a role too, allowing them to update the BH terms in player cities to provide names or selling jedi names lists weekly to BH's for X credits.
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