Bounty Hunter Archive
Thread: I'm not sure where the Nerf is...
Currenlty it's used as an "I can get away" button and an "I can heal 100%" button while the Bounty Hunter has to stand around looking silly. At any point now, a Jedi can root, run, and cloak to regenerate force, heal, etc. The Bounty Hunter can also do the same, but for them, they will be taking up precious stomach space and buffs will start wanning. This brings things a little bit more into balance, but a Jedi with cloak will still be able to use it to get away. I think some of this was intended for them not to be able to hide and regen, then re-enter combat fully buffed/healed/forced, etc.
In what way is the circumstance you are describing different than Stasis from a Master Enhancer? Or is Stasis the next item on the BH "we must nerf" list? I agree that Cloakers were abusing Cloak in PvE and that should be stopped. But cloak, as is, allows the EXACT SAME "take a moment to recollect oneself or escape" abililty as Force Stasis. Also bear in mind, until BHs stop exploiting the /emote,/target, /follow bug, Cloak with snare = death = useless skill.
WookieOgre wrote:
Ok, I'll be gentle because obviously you guys don't have this skill and don't understand the implications of the change:
:::whine:::
Now that I explained how the intended purpose of the skill will be completely worthless, lets look at the huge negatives using cloak. A BH shows up, a Jedi cloaks:
1) If a CM, they can throw ALL DoTs on the Jedi, incap them as if they heal it breaks the cloak and are attackable again
What's wrong with this? You shouldn't be able to heal/regen/buff while cloaked. No other profession in the game can do that, it's unbalanced.
2) Any BH can just follow the -snared- Jedi using the /follow command or droids. The Jedi is NOT allowed to logout or the Cloak will drop and you can kill them, sound like fun yet?
This is a known issue and is supposedly being fixed. It was an unintended result.
3) Any player while following the -snared- Jedi can easily do area attacks with friends to hit the Jedi, BH's will be using this one for sure.
Area attacks against another player or npc are perfectly ok. You are CLOAKED meaning invisible. You are confusing that with invincible. Just because the shooter cannot "see" you doesn't mean you aren't in the way of a blaster bolt.
So tell me again how you don't see this as a big nerf. It not only makes the skill worthless as what it was supposedly designed to do, but it's a death trap the moment a Jedi does infact Cloak.
Itremains to be seen how bad the snare acutally is. It's all conjecture until it hits live test/live anyway. To comment now on it, is an excercise in futility.
**and please, don't sit here and tell me they are going to fix any of the above...Devs have spoken and in no way are they going to allow it to be used as an escape/healing tactic**
Do you have some proof of this? By the way, what's wrong with hitting force run to get away from a hunter? You don't *need* cloak... Surely you can stay 80m or more out of range long enough to lost he BH tef, and pull out your small generic house to retreat into, right?
bmill wrote:
WookieOgre wrote:
Ok, I'll be gentle because obviously you guys don't have this skill and don't understand the implications of the change:
:::whine:::
Now that I explained how the intended purpose of the skill will be completely worthless, lets look at the huge negatives using cloak. A BH shows up, a Jedi cloaks:
1) If a CM, they can throw ALL DoTs on the Jedi, incap them as if they heal it breaks the cloak and are attackable again
What's wrong with this? You shouldn't be able to heal/regen/buff while cloaked. No other profession in the game can do that, it's unbalanced.
2) Any BH can just follow the -snared- Jedi using the /follow command or droids. The Jedi is NOT allowed to logout or the Cloak will drop and you can kill them, sound like fun yet?
This is a known issue and is supposedly being fixed. It was an unintended result.
3) Any player while following the -snared- Jedi can easily do area attacks with friends to hit the Jedi, BH's will be using this one for sure.
Area attacks against another player or npc are perfectly ok. You are CLOAKED meaning invisible. You are confusing that with invincible. Just because the shooter cannot "see" you doesn't mean you aren't in the way of a blaster bolt.
So tell me again how you don't see this as a big nerf. It not only makes the skill worthless as what it was supposedly designed to do, but it's a death trap the moment a Jedi does infact Cloak.
Itremains to be seen how bad the snare acutally is. It's all conjecture until it hits live test/live anyway. To comment now on it, is an excercise in futility.
**and please, don't sit here and tell me they are going to fix any of the above...Devs have spoken and in no way are they going to allow it to be used as an escape/healing tactic**
Do you have some proof of this? By the way, what's wrong with hitting force run to get away from a hunter? You don't *need* cloak... Surely you can stay 80m or more out of range long enough to lost he BH tef, and pull out your small generic house to retreat into, right?
Just a few points, it's not conjecture....if you look at AI you will see what the Devs have in store with Cloak.
You say just use forcerun to get away, MY POINT is I don't care about using it as an escape tactic. Can you please explain how I'm supposed to use it as "intended", being a first strike. Remember, you are snared (barely move) while your force is draining the more you come into contact. Please tell me how this special can be used now?
I say remove it completely and actaully give Powers users a real special. In trying to balance everything the devs are going to make it worthless like AI. Yes, AI is worthless because of one single Snare. This is going to happen to Cloak. I don't need to see how it's going to be on test, read the devs comments on what they WILL make it do. NO escape, no recharge/rest, first strike only while under a snare. It would be good if there was zero Forcecost while under cloak but see that makes too much sense, lets drain the Jedi to nothing before he starts to attack is the plan.
No, you misunderstanding it is invisible, but to attack a cloaked jedi bh are either using a friend (duel) to drop aoe on the cloaked jedi or using there droid to allow them to do the same thing. I would stress until the bh exploits are fixed they should not nerf cloak!! We all know how well they fix things and how quickly it happens!! If the snare is the same as AI then it will not be usable as a alpha strike as intended. If a bh was not kiteing the jedi he would not be able to cloak!!! So if the bh choses to use a exploit to attack me I will USE all ablilities I have to avoid his end game.
Rosobado
WookieOgre wrote:
Ok, I'll be gentle because obviously you guys don't have this skill and don't understand the implications of the change:
At the moment cloak is being used three ways, 1) Exploiting loot in PvE and Base shutdowns 2) Used to sneak up on overt players for the Alpha Strike attack (similar to a BH's alpha on Jedi) 3) Use to escape combat when the Jedi is either losing therefore they can recharge under cloak and come back or escape completely so they don't die (mostly used on BH's) 4) sometimes they could heal/d/b people while cloaked (exploit IMO)
........
you said "being used three ways" then listed 4 ways.... but you forgot number 5....
5) during a fight if a jedi get's rooted (in one v one combat usually gainst a BH) and cannot do damage to a kiting attacker but is taking damage, the jedi can cloak, once the root has worn off, the jedi can then uncloak (at the postition of his liking) and re-engage the target getting in at least 1 free hit and maybe 2-3 depending on how fast the other player can target.
Algren_Earth-Stormer wrote:
WookieOgre wrote:
Ok, I'll be gentle because obviously you guys don't have this skill and don't understand the implications of the change:
At the moment cloak is being used three ways, 1) Exploiting loot in PvE and Base shutdowns 2) Used to sneak up on overt players for the Alpha Strike attack (similar to a BH's alpha on Jedi) 3) Use to escape combat when the Jedi is either losing therefore they can recharge under cloak and come back or escape completely so they don't die (mostly used on BH's) 4) sometimes they could heal/d/b people while cloaked (exploit IMO)
........
you said "being used three ways" then listed 4 ways.... but you forgot number 5....
5) during a fight if a jedi get's rooted (in one v one combat usually gainst a BH) and cannot do damage to a kiting attacker but is taking damage, the jedi can cloak, once the root has worn off, the jedi can then uncloak (at the postition of his liking) and re-engage the target getting in at least 1 free hit and maybe 2-3 depending on how fast the other player can target.
And this is a bad thing? Are we supposed to believe that the DEVs intend cloak to only be able to be used ONCE during an attack, as an opener? Wouldn't this make cloak utterly useless against a BH since the BH is the one who must start the attacking? Furthermore, the argument against cloakers has been that they could heal and regen while cloaked. Your above scenario suggests that we should no longer be able to cloak while rooted as well? How much further do you intend to defunct this skill and just when WOULD you "approve" of a Jedi being able to cloak?
Seriously i saw this comeing a long time ago and I warned the jedi I knew about it. They totally ignored me instead focusing in on and I quote this I want the I win button. Yes its fun to just make a bh who spent a fair bit of time stand there frustrated. All super stealth techniques get nerfed eventually. Mask scent got totally neutered a long time ago because players used it to sneak through dungeons to get into the npc blindspots or to gain access to items like chests. Now you dare not equip maskscent because if its somewhere you would rather avoid fighting say the geonosian caves and you would like to bypass the first batch of hostiles. Well it snaps fifty meters out.
1. I win buttons just hurt the game in general nobody should get a free pass, or worse get to torment other players without risk.
2. Jedi have shown they are no better then any group they got an exploitable ability and proceeded to exploit it. Be it dragging BHs through deathtraps, or useing it to snatch up loot someone else worked hard to get. Player A digs through a dungeon while player J guess who that is walks through unmolested and gets free goodies. Jedi did it to themselves. All jedi did it.
3, Cry me a river about BHs you chose to be huntable you chose to fight in a manner that would generate visibility, and do not give me this line it happens there are plenty of places with no npcs to see you. When a BH comes a calling to deliver the downside you only have yourself to blame. You played the risky way and the BH is the risk.
No its not a nerf its just putting a ability into context no move or ability in the game is one hundred percent, or without downside. That is called balance it makes for a more strategic gameing experience. Oh not being self serveing here I rarely hunt jedi and when bh had perfect knockdown i rallied against that too.
Oh wow what a hardship for jedi rangers are getting a role in the game. I mean how dare they. They were here first. They didnt need that running ability or that camo ability they should know their role they are meant to harvest meat so jedi can have good food to eat. They need the content they got the content. Gee the devs are becomeing new age robin hoods.
Spookibus wrote:
I've been away from the game for about 3 weeks due to school. I've been following the threads today about so-called nerfs to Cloak.
I think many are aware that many aspects of cloak are NOT working as intended at the present time. Jedi believe cloak should be an "I win" button and that it should be unassailable. For every "I had to give up XXX skill points" post, you see a "I stay cloaked in Theed all the time" post.
What I read is this:
--Cloak will now possibly have a counter, in Ranger.
--Cloak will now include a snare so that you have to sneak when you use it.
--Cloak will break in a variety of situations in which the Jedi is doing something obvious and noisy.
This seems much more balanced in my view. It will still be a superior skill to Rifleman Cover.
It would still be extremely powerful, but there would be risks associated with its use. As it is now, it is unbreakable, uses a laughably small amount of force, and you still know the Jedi is there 90% of the time. If these changes go through, sure some Jedi will drop it and maybe pick up MDefender.
Now THAT's a skill set that needs some balancing. And if enough Jedi start picking it up, then the cycle of nerfs will continue.
i disagree ... the nerf may be coming and there may be nothing we can do about it ... but i for one think the nerfing of cloak will have negative repercussions for BH .. if jedi are made to stand and fight ... re-balancing may occur to once again make them better equipped to fight ...
personally i think giving jedi an option like cloak if they are not inclined to PVP, is a better solution than making it harder for them to evade, therefore possiblygiving them more power to fight ..
i have no problem with jedi running ...if they cant kill me but i cannot kill them this is balanced ...
if they cannot run and are given more power to kill me without rewarding me equal change insome more power in combat tokill them, its counter productive and works towards unbalancing ..
always be careful what you ask for or complain about and always keep in mind its the END power we want .. its the ability to sustain battles, thatwe want ..
dont ask for mechanics which may make our ability to DO battle less powerful...
it is very rare changes in this game dont propel or give birth to equal changes on the opposite side ... making it harder for jedi to run .. might make it harder for us to kill them ...
forced PVP calls for a very delicate and complex balancing system
Message Edited by Thassk on 09-20-2005 11:12 PM
Spookibus wrote:
I've been away from the game for about 3 weeks due to school. I've been following the threads today about so-called nerfs to Cloak.
I think many are aware that many aspects of cloak are NOT working as intended at the present time. Jedi believe cloak should be an "I win" button and that it should be unassailable. For every "I had to give up XXX skill points" post, you see a "I stay cloaked in Theed all the time" post.
What I read is this:
--Cloak will now possibly have a counter, in Ranger.
--Cloak will now include a snare so that you have to sneak when you use it.
--Cloak will break in a variety of situations in which the Jedi is doing something obvious and noisy.
This seems much more balanced in my view. It will still be a superior skill to Rifleman Cover.
It would still be extremely powerful, but there would be risks associated with its use. As it is now, it is unbreakable, uses a laughably small amount of force, and you still know the Jedi is there 90% of the time. If these changes go through, sure some Jedi will drop it and maybe pick up MDefender.
Now THAT's a skill set that needs some balancing. And if enough Jedi start picking it up, then the cycle of nerfs will continue.
Braxius, I don't see a question there. You've summed it up fairly well. The implications of the "cloak nerf" reach beyond PvP into the PvE arena as well. With a snare, Jedi will not be able to run unadulterated past npc rich areas as easily, like the DWB and Avatar. They will not be able to manipulate objects while cloaked, ie looting containers. They will also have more things that break them from cloak, like using force powers, healing, etc.
Currenlty it's used as an "I can get away" button and an "I can heal 100%" button while the Bounty Hunter has to stand around looking silly. At any point now, a Jedi can root, run, and cloak to regenerate force, heal, etc. The Bounty Hunter can also do the same, but for them, they will be taking up precious stomach space and buffs will start wanning. This brings thingsa little bit more into balance, but a Jedi with cloak will still be able to use it to get away. I think some of this was intended for them not to be able to hide and regen, then re-enter combat fully buffed/healed/forced, etc.