Bounty Hunter Archive
Thread: I'm not sure where the Nerf is...
Ok, I'll be gentle because obviously you guys don't have this skill and don't understand the implications of the change:
At the moment cloak is being used three ways, 1) Exploiting loot in PvE and Base shutdowns 2) Used to sneak up on overt players for the Alpha Strike attack (similar to a BH's alpha on Jedi) 3) Use to escape combat when the Jedi is either losing therefore they can recharge under cloak and come back or escape completely so they don't die (mostly used on BH's) 4) sometimes they could heal/d/b people while cloaked (exploit IMO)
Devs have now come out and said the intended use for Cloak all along was an Alpha STrike attack. So, the "fixes" they are giving to Cloak are not only fixing the ability to exploit heals, looting, base shutdown, they are also making it impossible to be used as an escape tactic. This is done by a -snare-, similar to what Avoid Incap recieved. It is the strongest possible snare in the game to where you are horridly slow to the point you look like a turtle. Also as an added benefit to prevent Cloak being used for ANY benefit, you may not buff yourself, run, or heal (self) with Cloak. Any action breaks it, and you are once again attackable.
Problems that I knowwill more than likely arise from this, Cloak takes force while the Jedi is under the stealth buff. Jedi is supposed to be using an Alpha strike however IF the -snare- being applied is as strong as the one for AI, you will NEVER get close enough to anyone to have an alpha strike. I'm not joking, a person walking around would be impossible to catch. Nevermind the whole time you are trying to catch up to your enemy to surprise them your force bar is dropping like a rock. Finally you might be lucky, have them within 5m to start actually attacking by then your force is gone. You'll more than likely need a holo. Adding a Snare to this skill makes ZERO sense since Jedi is a Melee combat profession. You may be under the dellusion that Powers is a med-ranged combat profession, as someone said good luck using the alpha strike and lightning.....you'll basically be tickling them to death.
Now that I explained how the intended purpose of the skill will be completely worthless, lets look at the huge negatives using cloak. A BH shows up, a Jedi cloaks:
1) If a CM, they can throw ALL DoTs on the Jedi, incap them as if they heal it breaks the cloak and are attackable again
2) Any BH can just follow the -snared- Jedi using the /follow command or droids. The Jedi is NOT allowed to logout or the Cloak will drop and you can kill them, sound like fun yet?
3) Any player while following the -snared- Jedi can easily do area attacks with friends to hit the Jedi, BH's will be using this one for sure.
So tell me again how you don't see this as a big nerf. It not only makes the skill worthless as what it was supposedly designed to do, but it's a death trap the moment a Jedi does infact Cloak.
**and please, don't sit here and tell me they are going to fix any of the above...Devs have spoken and in no way are they going to allow it to be used as an escape/healing tactic**
Well if this feature (cloak) was meant as a first strike for jedi... how about having 'cloak' disabled once a jedi enters combat?
Seems to me if you do that you dont have to worry/change anything else about it...
Ulrek_Oden wrote:
hmmmm
Well if this feature (cloak) was meant as a first strike for jedi... how about having 'cloak' disabled once a jedi enters combat?
Seems to me if you do that you dont have to worry/change anything else about it...
Actually that would be more in line with a legit first strike *only* attack. If you are in combat you are not allowed to cloak. Yes itwill not help in BH encounters if a change like this is made (frankly at this point who cares) but it will at least make it a viable first attack option which if put under snare & with the current forcecosts, it is not viable.
Besides, if the devs do fix any way to attack/track a cloaked Jedi (I have zero faith this will ever work right, we are 5 months into the CURB and it's still broken) it will be used more to evade combat or remove oneself from combat if they are losing.
WookieOgre wrote:
Ulrek_Oden wrote:
hmmmm
Well if this feature (cloak) was meant as a first strike for jedi... how about having 'cloak' disabled once a jedi enters combat?
Seems to me if you do that you dont have to worry/change anything else about it...
Actually that would be more in line with a legit first strike *only* attack. If you are in combat you are not allowed to cloak. Yes itwill not help in BH encounters if a change like this is made (frankly at this point who cares) but it will at least make it a viable first attack option which if put under snare & with the current forcecosts, it is not viable.Besides, if the devs do fix any way to attack/track a cloaked Jedi (I have zero faith this will ever work right, we are 5 months into the CURB and it's still broken) it will be used more to evade combat or remove oneself from combat if they are losing.
My only complaint is people are complaining about the skill, asking for it to be nerfed without actually looking at the repercusions of the nerf. It won't be a viable skill and this is unfortunately located in a Jedi disicipline (Powers) that is already gimped. What most BH's are going to find out is after people retemplate to Master Defenders or Master Enhancers they'll wish Cloak remained because you'll either die to the Master Defenders (maybe never kill them) or never catch the Stasis/FR3 Enhancers. This is why I laughed at all the BH's asking for cloak to be nerfed, all it will do is drive everyone to the FOTM template.
I somewhat agree... but the problem is... is as cloak stands now... it is IMPOSSIBLE to kill a jedi that has it... IMPOSSIBLE... unless they actually want to fight.
So something needs to be adjusted...
From my understanding, Cloak is supposed to be the jedi distracting the weak minds around them...... How could it work against a droid? It would be retarded to make droids not work against a jedi with cloak turned on. As it stands it is an "I can't lose button". Now with this it would make it nearly impossible to find a Jedi at all, so long as he cloaks for a little bitevery 5 minutes. The seeker will not find him and either report that the biosig was not found on this planet..... or that he's offline..... or better yet "Due to the unusually cloaked life form on this planet, your target could be anyware.... good luck. Try running around asking if anyone has seen any cloaked jedi"
WookieOgre wrote:
Grunzer wrote:
It came in the form of bugs that were being exploited by BH's to continue following their targets and attacking them. However, these bugs are now going to be fixed as well, so it's not a big issue anymore.
What?!?
You mean you will not be allowed to track a cloaked Jedi with droids when this is done?
Well, that might actually be balanced if this is true. Now forgive me as I go look for flying pigs.
**also, I'm glad you're here to say all the mutliple exploits BH's use currently are going to be fixed.....I mean after all it's only been 5 months. And we also know how much the community supports Jedi fixes evertime Jedi is mentioned in the patch notes. With the BH community behind Jedi to get it fixed, I'm sure the devs are going to get right on those exploits....I mean they would never nerf something before they fix underlying exploits right? Noooo, not the devs.**
Message Edited by WookieOgre on 09-21-2005 07:17 AM
Ulrek_Oden wrote:
hmmmm
Well if this feature (cloak) was meant as a first strike for jedi... how about having 'cloak' disabled once a jedi enters combat?
Seems to me if you do that you dont have to worry/change anything else about it...
or just include the snare aspect of it after the Jedi has a TEF in any engagement. This way they get better non combat movement in cloak, but severely reduced movement in cloak. Another solution might be just giving jedi an escape option where it drains all their force to cloak (kind of like last ditch) and lasts for a couple of minutes to get away. Then remove force regen and healing from cloak. Still gives the BH an opportunity if they are tenacious and also gives the jedi an out, not an out and in tactic like it used now.
Algren_Earth-Stormer wrote:
From my understanding, Cloak is supposed to be the jedi distracting the weak minds around them...... How could it work against a droid? It would be retarded to make droids not work against a jedi with cloak turned on. As it stands it is an "I can't lose button". Now with this it would make it nearly impossible to find a Jedi at all, so long as he cloaks for a little bitevery 5 minutes. The seeker will not find him and either report that the biosig was not found on this planet..... or that he's offline..... or better yet "Due to the unusually cloaked life form on this planet, your target could be anyware.... good luck. Try running around asking if anyone has seen any cloaked jedi"
WookieOgre wrote:
Grunzer wrote:
It came in the form of bugs that were being exploited by BH's to continue following their targets and attacking them. However, these bugs are now going to be fixed as well, so it's not a big issue anymore.
What?!?
You mean you will not be allowed to track a cloaked Jedi with droids when this is done?
Well, that might actually be balanced if this is true. Now forgive me as I go look for flying pigs.
**also, I'm glad you're here to say all the mutliple exploits BH's use currently are going to be fixed.....I mean after all it's only been 5 months. And we also know how much the community supports Jedi fixes evertime Jedi is mentioned in the patch notes. With the BH community behind Jedi to get it fixed, I'm sure the devs are going to get right on those exploits....I mean they would never nerf something before they fix underlying exploits right? Noooo, not the devs.**
Message Edited by WookieOgre on 09-21-2005 07:17 AM
Actually I have no idea how it works against a droid. Rangers will be able to decloak a Jedi from what it seems but my seekers somehow can't track them....hmmmm. Yes it doesn't make sense however you have to look at it from the Jedi's end, if you can track a cloaked Jedi (in anyway) while they are snared, can't heal, can't channel, can't run ect.....the skill has now become worthless. All you need to do is just follow the Jedi until the force runs out. The Jedi can't not log or he will decloak.
That's why I said putting a snare on the skill is the stupidest thing in the world. It made Avoid Incap skill worthless, it's now a death trap for any Jedi to use it. In the new vision of cloak, it will just make you an invisible turtle with a horrendous forcecost. Sure unattackable, untrackable by anyone, but the purpose of the skill being a first strike attack has now been made worthless. If Jedi had the power of a Rifleman at 65m, yeah the skill would be cool. Trying to get within 5m of someone with the biggest snare in the game....I really can't wait till they test it and find out the skill will be a joke.....oh I forgot, Testing is something they do on live.
Just keep on saying the same thing over and over again, and someone will eventually take your side.....
This is ridiculous. No one can possbily know how it's going to be at this point. Everyone here is basing their opinions on this from a few obscure developer posts on the subject. NO ONE can say who is right or wrong right now.
You simply do NOT have the information to comment knowledgeably whether or not it will be the worst root in the game, or whether it can be used effectively for first strike or not. You cannot know these things, since it's yet to reach a test phase. Right now, it's nothing but unsubstantiated conjecture.
bmill wrote:
Just keep on saying the same thing over and over again, and someone will eventually take your side.....
This is ridiculous. No one can possbily know how it's going to be at this point. Everyone here is basing their opinions on this from a few obscure developer posts on the subject. NO ONE can say who is right or wrong right now.
You simply do NOT have the information to comment knowledgeably whether or not it will be the worst root in the game, or whether it can be used effectively for first strike or not. You cannot know these things, since it's yet to reach a test phase. Right now, it's nothing but unsubstantiated conjecture.
Reason I can accurately guess how this snare will affect the skill is because I have Master Defender. I know EXACTLY what the snare does, it makes you walk like a turtle. Cloak (and yes, I have cloak but I don't even use it) under a snare will remove it's effectiveness. See, I have a skill that has the snare they intend to use and the skill they intend to nerf. They announced how they intend to nerf it therefore I can give you my opinion on why their logic is flawed.
Maybe people who are not Jedi that do not have the skill can't guess what this change will do but I have the skills in jedi. I can tell you how it will turn out based on previous nerfs. If the Devs were to suddenly announce they intend to bring 85% block back to MLS, can you predict what would happen? According to you BH's should just shut up, wait till it hits Test where things somehow magically find themselves on Live without any changes more times than not.
Besides, I didn't make this post. Another BH asked what's the big deal, they saw no nerf. I then explained why it was a big deal. Telling me it's unsubstantiated conjecture, well I'm basing everything off what the devs have stated up to this point. Can that change, of course. It still does NOT remove the fact that their current vision of Cloak will be borked.
WookieOgre wrote:
bmill wrote:
Just keep on saying the same thing over and over again, and someone will eventually take your side.....
This is ridiculous. No one can possbily know how it's going to be at this point. Everyone here is basing their opinions on this from a few obscure developer posts on the subject. NO ONE can say who is right or wrong right now.
You simply do NOT have the information to comment knowledgeably whether or not it will be the worst root in the game, or whether it can be used effectively for first strike or not. You cannot know these things, since it's yet to reach a test phase. Right now, it's nothing but unsubstantiated conjecture.
Reason I can accurately guess how this snare will affect the skill is because I have Master Defender. I know EXACTLY what the snare does, it makes you walk like a turtle. Cloak (and yes, I have cloak but I don't even use it) under a snare will remove it's effectiveness. See, I have a skill that has the snare they intend to use and the skill they intend to nerf. They announced how they intend to nerf it therefore I can give you my opinion on why their logic is flawed.
Maybe people who are not Jedi that do not have the skill can't guess what this change will do but I have the skills in jedi. I can tell you how it will turn out based on previous nerfs. If the Devs were to suddenly announce they intend to bring 85% block back to MLS, can you predict what would happen? According to you BH's should just shut up, wait till it hits Test where things somehow magically find themselves on Live without any changes more times than not.
Besides, I didn't make this post. Another BH asked what's the big deal, they saw no nerf. I then explained why it was a big deal. Telling me it's unsubstantiated conjecture, well I'm basing everything off what the devs have stated up to this point. Can that change, of course. It still does NOT remove the fact that their current vision of Cloak will be borked.
You sealed your argument up for yourself personally. You admitted that you do not use cloak, so why are you getting so testy about it? You have been advocating using it as a frist strike weapon, but you then say that you "don't even use it." You are fighting the good fight for the rest of the Jedi population that DO use cloak?
It's not as if the developers didn't think this through. The more I think about it, the more it looks like a punishment for all the Jedi who exploited the cloak bugs.
Is there any developer comment that says you will not be able to use at least FR 1 undercloak? Currently force run negates any snare that an opponent lands on you anyhow.
I absolutely and 100% agree that the cloak should drop if a Jedi heals/buffs/changes clothing/etc. All you should be able to do is eat, like the rifleman cover. Anything else will bounce you out of it. Jedi cloak should be no different. Currently, a Bounty Hunter attacks a Jedi, get's him down to 10% force and very little health, the Jedi can cloak, regen, heal, rebuff and re-enter combat. All in the span of a few seconds to minutes depending on how bad the situation is.
The Hunter on the other hand does not have this option. Can you realistically tell me that you think this is reasonable?
The snare issue is of no consiquence to me... either it gets one or it doesn't. I don't care.... ifa Jedi cloaks out of a fight and walks/runs away, it makes no difference to me. I still cannot attack them.
You sound like you so are upset about this because the developers took away your cloak looting exploit....
bmill wrote:
You sealed your argument up for yourself personally. You admitted that you do not use cloak, so why are you getting so testy about it? You have been advocating using it as a frist strike weapon, but you then say that you "don't even use it." You are fighting the good fight for the rest of the Jedi population that DO use cloak?
I don't ever cloak, I kill any BH who comes for me. Yep, I have a 700+ damage saber + Master Defender, that's why I almost feel I waisted my skills on Cloak however it is fun to jump people when I used to use it on overt Jedi. I will defend against any kind of nerf that is not needed whether or not I use/have the skill. Nerfing in general is bad IMO. Some balancing was obviously needed, people exploiting Cloak was seriously bad but an overboard nerf, sorry I'll fight that.
It's not as if the developers didn't think this through. The more I think about it, the more it looks like a punishment for all the Jedi who exploited the cloak bugs.
As I said above, if they want to punish the people who exploited, why not ban them? Why would you destroy a skill out of spite?
Is there any developer comment that says you will not be able to use at least FR 1 undercloak? Currently force run negates any snare that an opponent lands on you anyhow.
Yes, a Jedi asked the dev who has created the new stealth rules and one of the buffs he asked about was FR. Supposedly FR will break Cloak. Now does that mean you can't FR away from the BH and once clear, Cloak....nope you'll still be able to do that. Once you can't track a Jedi, that's all the skill will be good for, leaving battle so you don't die. At least that is currently where we are at from the information the devs have realeased. So it won't be a first strike as they want it to be, it'll be won't die 1vs1 ever (as I said, for now)
I absolutely and 100% agree that the cloak should drop if a Jedi heals/buffs/changes clothing/etc. All you should be able to do is eat, like the rifleman cover. Anything else will bounce you out of it. Jedi cloak should be no different. Currently, a Bounty Hunter attacks a Jedi, get's him down to 10% force and very little health, the Jedi can cloak, regen, heal, rebuff and re-enter combat. All in the span of a few seconds to minutes depending on how bad the situation is.
/agree. I 100% agree with you, if the Devs were to make it a legit first strike attack, they should (and currently from the devs description it will) be prevented from healing/buffing.
The Hunter on the other hand does not have this option. Can you realistically tell me that you think this is reasonable?
Currently IMO it's reasonable for those people who choose Master Powers as their offense. You have to understand, high force/action/mind template. While I think it's unfair say for my template to have the ability, it's not for the poor gimped templates. Of course the easy solution is to make Powers less gimped and then no one should have a reason to cloak to recover unless they are bad at PvP.
The snare issue is of no consiquence to me... either it gets one or it doesn't. I don't care.... ifa Jedi cloaks out of a fight and walks/runs away, it makes no difference to me. I still cannot attack them.
That's exactly my point, it's still an escape method from everything I've read.....nothing is going to change that (if they fix the exploits hitting and any tracking methods)
You sound like you so are upset about this because the developers took away your cloak looting exploit....
Actually that is the dumbest thing I've heard of people doing. They can't possibly get good loot, well not as much loot as I get on my MBH. I've played my Jedi a whole 2 times the past month. My BH has been a loot machine. Trust me, I'm laughing at the people who took Cloak for looting, it servers them right. I'm crying though for the people who are going be gimped or lose a viable skill.
Message Edited by SpaceSnail on 09-21-2005 09:50 AM
Sounds like are beginning to agree here. I'm thinking the snare didn't have much to do with PvP though. I can guess and say it has to do with GCW base busting where a cloaked jedi FR's into the base, get's all the npcs and them comes out while the base bomb goes in alone and takes it down without a shot being fired at them. The other issue really is the DWB and the Avatar too. CloakedJedi can get past the security doors and loot containers and chests without ever dropping their cloak down. That can't be intended and rather than removing the skill altogether they added a snare that will resolve both issues in one solution.
I also don't agree that the developers should constantly be changing things based on the outcry of the community. And while I may not personally like the fact that Jedi can run away from me with Cloak any time they chose, that doesn't make it wrong. We all have to remember that it's the Bounty Hunter's agenda to terminate Jedi, and it's the Jedi's responsibility to stop this. If the Jedi fights and loses, that's one thing. But should the Jedi decide the hunter is superior or not be prepared to fight, I don't think that he should be forced to. There SHOULD be a way to leave the scene, however, I don't think cloak should be it... at least not at 20m in the middle of combat.
I agree with some of the others though that this will "herd" the Jedi towards a limited number of templates, thus removing the individualilty of the profession in PvP. Just last night after all this hit the awareness of my guild, at least 4 Jedi began dropping skills and re-grinding templates that did not include cloak.... it's already began changing things, and it's nowhere near live yet. Funny, right?
And about your name.... I keep thinking it says Wookie Orgy! lol 