Bounty Hunter Archive
Thread: $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Deus-ex-Mechanicus
Sun Jul 18, 2004 9:22 pm
#27
Ok, this has gotten stupid.
/whap Specter
/whap Princess
The original point of the post was to make a statement that hunting jedi is expensive, probably too expensive for what BH's get in return. BH's run a lot of money on things such as armor, travel, weapons, buffs, droids, etc. Jedi also run up credits, but at least with the jedi there is no armor to maintain andno one-use droids to constantly replace. As for buffs and travel, well we all spend money on those on a prett regular basis. Weapons for both profs are different, but no less expensive comparitvely. BH's buy high powered, very expensive weapons (aka, mind fire geo blasters and such) just to match a jedi's destructive capability and hopefully gain an edge. Jedi buy 50-100k crystals for their weapons.
Whatever the case, BOTH professions use money, but a jedi can at least break even (or usually profit massively)with it. BH's can only lose money by taking jedi missions until the devs reset the jedi mission rewards.
sketch123
Sun Jul 18, 2004 9:22 pm
#28
Princess_Chibi wrote:
Get screenshots, prove me wrong. Then you do your own math. You post it here, and prove me wrong...
--Princess Chibi
There is no reason to attempt to prove wrong someone who guessed a bunch of numbers and posted them wrong. You do not support your argument with any proof. You don't even show your math so you proved yourself wrong. Try making a real argument first before you want anyone to prove you wrong. Its not our job to prove you wrong, its your job to prove yourself right when you make a baseless argument.
Message Edited by sketch123 on 07-18-2004 09:23 PM
Deus-ex-Mechanicus
Sun Jul 18, 2004 9:28 pm
#29
How much did you make during that whole time while grinding? Not a flame, just curious.
KillaernAnderling wrote:
the whole robe not decaying thing is inadequate as we take massive damage witghout armour..
as for costs...
I had 48 million in credits before i started my grind...
30 profs later...6 million left.....
now for the jedi grind...
grinded guardian 4-4-4-4 in 3 months of old ssystem...
9 composite kinetic armour suits -- 4.9 million sliced....
additional 12 chest pieces -- 600,000 unsliced
sabers grinded through -- 7
28 crystals @ going price then of 500,000 each.... 14 million
PVP saber with 4 krayt pearls -- 9 million (got great deal )
---------
TOTAL COST : 68 Million
* price does not include millions spent on doctor buffs, musician buffs, brandy,synthsteak , thakitillo...travel.
add another 10 million for safe measure
hehe
mcgirk
Sun Jul 18, 2004 9:36 pm
#30
Princess_Chibi wrote:
Attacking me because the argument has no flaws. Always wondered why I got A's in Debate. Now I know why.
--Princess Chibi
obviously you didn't get A's in reading since JustG and TH have BOTH stated thatthe current BH payoutis a TEMPORARY situation... but i will give you an A+ in ranting
also... are you sure you don't work on Bush's economic team? because it seems to me that what you are insinuating should be done (increasing BH payouts just tocompensate for the totally broken economy that exists on most servers) would just be throwing gasoline on the fire.
i am sorry that your server's economy resembles a 3rd world country going through its 5th revolution in a week... but inflation is not the fault of the Jedi... blame credit-dupers and uber-crafters for that...
there are lotsof things that can be said about your "rant"... least of whichthat you fail to mention (at least i didn't see it anywhere) that you get 9k per mission in the beginning then 15k per mission.... so you more then pay for your buffs for those missions... i am not even going to bother looking at your other numbers cause once you said 100k for a PSG i, being a former armorsmith who sold 47% base imp prototype PSG's for 18k, just totally lost it...
obviously i am not on your server so maybe things ARE that bad... if so you should post on the core systems board and push for some sort of price regulation in the economy...
Seshemw
Sun Jul 18, 2004 10:16 pm
#31
Works as a worst case cost estimate for getting to where you can kill Jedi. But it's flawed for a practical case.
First flaw? Most of the investigation tree BEFORE 3 can be done on one planet. In fact, I've got a friend who's putting I3 back on one of his characters (his other's already a master), and he pulls missions the smart way. His marks are, usually, within 100m of where he's standing. If not, he pulls another mission, and repeats.
Second flaw? Money is the next best thing to irrelevant. When you can pull down 30k per mission, in a 'solo group', painlessly (not counting sellable loot like crystals), any argument based on the credit cost vs. credit reward, when the price to the other guy is experience (and you can kill him repeatedly should you get the urge) is going to be pretty well fundamentally flawed from the start. Credits are easy, renewable resources. Much moreso than experience.
Third flaw? That armor cost, over 1 million credits for the set, isn't needed. Hell, you don't even need the lightning cannon. Especially in this age of BH having more skillpoints (so potentially more support profession skills), and doctor buffs being what they are, your real cost is a recurring 10k per 3 hours. Without expensive armor, but with a combat profession that isn't bounty hunter, your marks are easy as hell to drop. Using my friend again as an example, he does unarmed knockdown 2, and the fight is fundamentally over. He doesn't use buffs, btw. It costs him about 120-150 action per mark to finish the mission.
4th flaw? You alternate between pre-jedi costs, and adding costs 'if the jedi nails you'. If you're doing a cost analysis to get to that first jedi, the second category is irrelevant.
5th flaw? Your basic costs are out of line anyway. 2 weapons between novice BH and I3? WTH are you doing, using overcharge for every attack? 900k for composite, and 300k for slicing? Are you getting that gold plated? My last set of composite cost me 75k to get sliced (including repeat pieces for the ones that got effective sliced instead of encumberance). The set itself didn't cost 900k either, but still had 80% kinetic, 60% other resists. I think it cost me about half as much as your price mark (and my current set was free. The value of knowing armorsmiths who LIKE you). So all told, you inflated the cost of composite by more than double.
Since all my heavy weapons, including krayt pieces, have been free (the value of having weaponsmiths who actually LIKE you), I can't say if your price on LLCs is anywhere near accurate... but since I also know my successful BH friends, including jedi killers, stopped using LLCs on their marks (or the jedi targets) as soon as they got the extra skillpoints and crosstrained.
I'm not even going to touch your droid costs. We'll even ignore the longstanding bug that makes your seekers infinite past a certain point. Or the fact that the current seeker updates are /fast/ and actually accurate, resulting in less churn on that.
I know your name, I know you're rep. I usually ignore the latter, but it's pretty plainly obvious that you've tried to craft an argument based on worst case numbers, trying to paint it as the norm, and trying to use it as a crutch for 'why it needs to pay more out'. We even have Dev mention, in threads past, that multiplanet mission payouts (for non-BH) were supposed to run at a loss, and BH missions that involved multiple planets (for NPC marks) weren't supposed to make you rich. The part many BHs seem to consistantly miss is that there's more to the equation when other PCs are involved. More in skill (NPC ai is predictable), more in costs (BTW: Against jedi targets, since armor is irrelevant, you can take it off. You don't even need it on them), more in prep and recovery (I can't think of the last time an NPC has waxed me successfully. Jedi can win, even if they don't win as much as some people say), but most importantly: The target has something to lose, and the target is another paying customer who is 'just as important' as a customer, to SOE.
What seems 'just' to you, has to be balanced against the price to other customers. A rich payout that encourages people to hunt Jedi for financial reward, again and again, is justified on some levels, but it adds to the burden on the Jedi players (who pay for the BH success in more concrete terms. 200k per death that can only be had from xp grinding, instead of the many ways to make cash).
IMO, as someone who's friendly to the hunting-of-jedi concept, I think BHs should get no significantly tangible rewards at all. I want the BHs hunting jedi for the reasons my friends hunt them. It's fun, it's challenging, it can be a right pain in the ass, and it leads to bragging rights on the memorable encounters. GCW leads to very few tangible rewards, yet before CM assassins and FRS bottom feeding, seemed to be doing pretty well. I think GCW will do better as fixes are actually applied to it... but the real reward there are the fights themselves, successes and losses, and the stories after. Why can't it be something similar for Jedi, hmm? The BH doesn't have real losses on a lose, the Jedi always does, and the current climate has a GREAT many BHs taking the cheap shots for extra kills via exploiting bugs.
If you want a climate where rewards and incentives to be increased, first you're going to have to address the griefing. If people only kill Jedi for the paycheck, instead of 'I already killed him once, but as long as I have a TEF, he's going to die and die and die', there's a better chance your paycheck can go up. Look at it this way: Devs may have a ratio in mind. X Jedi deaths per week, say. Let's say 3000 Jedi deaths per server per week.
If that mark is being hit with paychecks for missions low, due to gtef, due to mark tefs persisting when they're supposed to go away, whatever, they're not going to add extra incentives (leading to extra deaths) for the jedi. So... if you get the people racking up 'free' kills with no mission attached to stop, they'd be getting few enough deaths they might actually ramp up the reward, as an incentive to get more BHs out there killing.
Right now, for the vast majority, it appears no extra incentives are needed. The hunt goes on, daily, on all servers, even if it's 'too expensive' for folks like you. Even if Jedi are 'god mode', in the beliefs of some of these folk (which they're not. I see Jedi die all the time).
First flaw? Most of the investigation tree BEFORE 3 can be done on one planet. In fact, I've got a friend who's putting I3 back on one of his characters (his other's already a master), and he pulls missions the smart way. His marks are, usually, within 100m of where he's standing. If not, he pulls another mission, and repeats.
Second flaw? Money is the next best thing to irrelevant. When you can pull down 30k per mission, in a 'solo group', painlessly (not counting sellable loot like crystals), any argument based on the credit cost vs. credit reward, when the price to the other guy is experience (and you can kill him repeatedly should you get the urge) is going to be pretty well fundamentally flawed from the start. Credits are easy, renewable resources. Much moreso than experience.
Third flaw? That armor cost, over 1 million credits for the set, isn't needed. Hell, you don't even need the lightning cannon. Especially in this age of BH having more skillpoints (so potentially more support profession skills), and doctor buffs being what they are, your real cost is a recurring 10k per 3 hours. Without expensive armor, but with a combat profession that isn't bounty hunter, your marks are easy as hell to drop. Using my friend again as an example, he does unarmed knockdown 2, and the fight is fundamentally over. He doesn't use buffs, btw. It costs him about 120-150 action per mark to finish the mission.
4th flaw? You alternate between pre-jedi costs, and adding costs 'if the jedi nails you'. If you're doing a cost analysis to get to that first jedi, the second category is irrelevant.
5th flaw? Your basic costs are out of line anyway. 2 weapons between novice BH and I3? WTH are you doing, using overcharge for every attack? 900k for composite, and 300k for slicing? Are you getting that gold plated? My last set of composite cost me 75k to get sliced (including repeat pieces for the ones that got effective sliced instead of encumberance). The set itself didn't cost 900k either, but still had 80% kinetic, 60% other resists. I think it cost me about half as much as your price mark (and my current set was free. The value of knowing armorsmiths who LIKE you). So all told, you inflated the cost of composite by more than double.
Since all my heavy weapons, including krayt pieces, have been free (the value of having weaponsmiths who actually LIKE you), I can't say if your price on LLCs is anywhere near accurate... but since I also know my successful BH friends, including jedi killers, stopped using LLCs on their marks (or the jedi targets) as soon as they got the extra skillpoints and crosstrained.
I'm not even going to touch your droid costs. We'll even ignore the longstanding bug that makes your seekers infinite past a certain point. Or the fact that the current seeker updates are /fast/ and actually accurate, resulting in less churn on that.
I know your name, I know you're rep. I usually ignore the latter, but it's pretty plainly obvious that you've tried to craft an argument based on worst case numbers, trying to paint it as the norm, and trying to use it as a crutch for 'why it needs to pay more out'. We even have Dev mention, in threads past, that multiplanet mission payouts (for non-BH) were supposed to run at a loss, and BH missions that involved multiple planets (for NPC marks) weren't supposed to make you rich. The part many BHs seem to consistantly miss is that there's more to the equation when other PCs are involved. More in skill (NPC ai is predictable), more in costs (BTW: Against jedi targets, since armor is irrelevant, you can take it off. You don't even need it on them), more in prep and recovery (I can't think of the last time an NPC has waxed me successfully. Jedi can win, even if they don't win as much as some people say), but most importantly: The target has something to lose, and the target is another paying customer who is 'just as important' as a customer, to SOE.
What seems 'just' to you, has to be balanced against the price to other customers. A rich payout that encourages people to hunt Jedi for financial reward, again and again, is justified on some levels, but it adds to the burden on the Jedi players (who pay for the BH success in more concrete terms. 200k per death that can only be had from xp grinding, instead of the many ways to make cash).
IMO, as someone who's friendly to the hunting-of-jedi concept, I think BHs should get no significantly tangible rewards at all. I want the BHs hunting jedi for the reasons my friends hunt them. It's fun, it's challenging, it can be a right pain in the ass, and it leads to bragging rights on the memorable encounters. GCW leads to very few tangible rewards, yet before CM assassins and FRS bottom feeding, seemed to be doing pretty well. I think GCW will do better as fixes are actually applied to it... but the real reward there are the fights themselves, successes and losses, and the stories after. Why can't it be something similar for Jedi, hmm? The BH doesn't have real losses on a lose, the Jedi always does, and the current climate has a GREAT many BHs taking the cheap shots for extra kills via exploiting bugs.
If you want a climate where rewards and incentives to be increased, first you're going to have to address the griefing. If people only kill Jedi for the paycheck, instead of 'I already killed him once, but as long as I have a TEF, he's going to die and die and die', there's a better chance your paycheck can go up. Look at it this way: Devs may have a ratio in mind. X Jedi deaths per week, say. Let's say 3000 Jedi deaths per server per week.
If that mark is being hit with paychecks for missions low, due to gtef, due to mark tefs persisting when they're supposed to go away, whatever, they're not going to add extra incentives (leading to extra deaths) for the jedi. So... if you get the people racking up 'free' kills with no mission attached to stop, they'd be getting few enough deaths they might actually ramp up the reward, as an incentive to get more BHs out there killing.
Right now, for the vast majority, it appears no extra incentives are needed. The hunt goes on, daily, on all servers, even if it's 'too expensive' for folks like you. Even if Jedi are 'god mode', in the beliefs of some of these folk (which they're not. I see Jedi die all the time).
Zonku
Sun Jul 18, 2004 10:30 pm
#33
Im just gonna say that either you dont know what your talkin about or your servers prices are way way way too expensive (I play on Starsider). On Starsider, a swoop biek costs about 15k, not 30k, good PVP stun composite armor (full suit) (about 65% stun) without slice is 400-500k, slice costs about 30k for an entire set(Haven't trained Investigation 1 yet for droids lol). Another thing, did you consider before getting investigation 1 to keep usin the first missions (the ones that dont require droids) until you hit the max exp until you train (which I believe is 10,000). I do believe though that jedi overpower the Bounty Hunters too much of course, but just sayin, atleast on my server, your prices are outrageous. 
Zonku
Sun Jul 18, 2004 10:36 pm
#34
Damn no edit button, I mean on the last line "but just sayin, atleastcompared my server, your prices are outrageous"
MarksPerson
Mon Jul 19, 2004 1:16 am
#36
I'm not upset about this. If I was, killing jedi makes me happier. And money can't buy happiness.
Message Edited by MarksPerson on 07-19-2004 01:16 AM
Darth_Mateo
Mon Jul 19, 2004 1:40 am
#37
Bah, you're completely off. I usually spend twice that when I factor in stopping at shops and buying un-needed crap along the way.
What's this, cheap crates of Blueleaf Temple paintings... woohoo!!
And I hope this is not supposed to be a serious thread, Princess Chibi.
What's this, cheap crates of Blueleaf Temple paintings... woohoo!!
And I hope this is not supposed to be a serious thread, Princess Chibi.
alephen
Mon Jul 19, 2004 2:33 am
#38
very funny
see devs you need to raise jedi missions to 100m per so the BH can profit. lol
lets see um, the 1st 10k of investigation xp, costs far less then the pay if you are doing same planet (novice missions)
i thought you were serious on some of your posts and couldnt understand your reasoning. duh, i am so slow. i didnt realize they were all jokes.
cost to BH master around 2.3 million creds:
1/2 suit grinding armor (since it had over half condition when done) 300k +15k for half cost of the slice
bike 25k
weapons 200k (100k carbine, 75k pistol, 25k llc, because who uses a llc? hehe)
buffs avg about 1 per 6 successful missions (what i got prepatch) less then 200k
clone? no 8k npc will kill me
food? wasted on an 8k npc
travel 500k (when taking missions on dath, yavin, or endor)
droids about 400k
actual costs for the jedi hunt 15k for a good bivoli buff, 5k for mind buff, MAYBE 10k for food buffs
WOW! it costs 100m to get investigation 3 and only about 2.3m to get master BH!
mind you this is skewed a bit. i didnt subtract from the cost the money i made killing marks and doing the missions for weapons xp.
thanks for the laugh. btw i spent 4 million just on my saber prepatch, and it was a very average saber.
Massadonious
Mon Jul 19, 2004 2:35 am
#39
What I got out of it was this...
Unless you want to open up a can of whoop ass on a Jedi, don't do it, because the monetary benefits are crap.
That sound about right? 