Bounty Hunter Archive
Thread: The Jedi Problem examined a call to reason
ShaikeRamjet wrote:
Too damn long... I skipped reading this just because of its length.
and..
Someuser wrote:
Still too long. Skipped this one too
I don't know what scare me the most, the lack of respect you guys have for reason or the fact you are proud of it.
Daeges , thank you!!
I think youcorrectly expose the problem we have about the game vs the community behavior toward the Jedi issue.
But I think Prozac bring a good point: Jedi by it number may destroy the game mecanic at its core. Which is the crafting/economic system.
But these problem could beeasily be fix by letting the other class create some componenets for Jedi's ligthsabers and robe.(Taylor,ranger and BE for robe and chips from Droid engineer.)
andnice workagain Daeges.
Message Edited by Neutrinoide on 07-22-2005 05:00 PM
ok let me spread the joy here and throw around my brain power ......
Daeges wrote:
I have posted this here because this seems to be the place where much of those who advance the cause of the "jedi problem" congregate.
I would like to take a moment and delve into the logic of those who bemoan the existence of jedi or their population. I do not share that view, and struggle to rationalize it beyond emotional positions. From my perspective, I group the objections in variations or combinations of what follows:
“There should be no jedi for player characters.” - this position seems to fall into two broad categories:
“Jedi should be rare and/or exhibit certain characteristics, and permitting players to assume these roles would violate one or both of these.” – This is the mantra of the fan of the movies who view jedi as the principle characters of an epic struggle, and therefore jedi need to be defined much as they were in the films. However, this is a massively multiplayer online role playing game (MMORPG), where there are no central characters and you can not easily compel players to play their characters in any particular way. As a result, people holding this view conclude that jedi should be the purview of non-player characters.
( exactly its not the movies its an MMORPG, so why do we stick to this time bomb which is the jedi proffession?.....
why must this game adhere to the idea jedi must be so much more powerful thanall other beings in the galaxy when clearly every other rule given to us by the movies have been violated?....
why arent we allowed to spread our wings and enjoy variety? uniqueness? a sense that we are apart from others? ...
as it stands to be the most powerful you can be in this game you have one option and one option only .. JEDI ... every single other mmorpg emphasizes CROSSDEPENDECY between its different career choices... you need healers .. tanks ... nukers .. mezzers ( to those less experience mmorpg'ers high damage dealing people, damage taking people, people who are powerful in rooting ect) it provides for the richest group dynamic possible .. and creates an INTERLOCKED sense of community ...
yet SWG again and again refuses to allow any other profession to bloom orspread its wings and growaside from JEDI ...
they refuse to make this game's end goal anything else but JEDI ... its a one dimensional bland experience ..this may not be our devs fault ..but someone maybe even lucas himself refuses to allowan alternativeplay experience... they refuse to allow any other profession challenge jedi .... and let me tell you ... for those who say star wars is jedi .... i GUARANTEE you if there were other uber professions available people would be flocking to them like moses and his people to the holy land ....
i say lucas arts should just give upcreative control and let this game follow the flow of its communityandgrow beyond the shallow cash crop which is "jedi" and maybe just maybe .. it might be an even greater hit and make MORE money than it is now ...
Clearly there can not be 10,000 Lukes running around SWG at the center of the plot, each independently controlling their own destiny. However, one of the defining characteristics of a MMORPG is that there is no central character nor preordained conclusion, and to lesser or greater extents, each player changes the world. By building a world with the factions and environment based upon a milieu, but leaving the course of events as an open question, those of us playing are empowered to feel ownership, and this is the attraction of this kind of game over a single player offering.
( your conclusions here are hypocritical at best ....you say in an mmorpg there can be no central character ... BUT IN SWG THERE IS ITS CALLED JEDI )
Should all characters have equal power? If so, then you have removed many of the motives for the game. Why accumulate wealth or experience?
( why not leave it up to player skill and his ability to gather top end equipment dictate POWER instead of rewarding players with power for an extra month of mindless grinding?)
Message Edited by Thassk on 07-23-2005 03:28 AM
Neutrinoide wrote:
ShaikeRamjet wrote:
Too damn long... I skipped reading this just because of its length.
and..
Someuser wrote:
Still too long. Skipped this one too
I don't know what scare me the most, the lack of respect you guys have for reason or the fact you are proud of it.
The original post Daeges made was:
1. W-A-Y too long (focus is good but get to the point)
2. Boring (the post's vocabulary "level"was unnecessarily high)
3. The font color was VERY irritating to the eyes
Nuff said on the original post.
Vezek oh my gosh!!!! what a freakin genius!!! exactly! who cares if someone else is a jedi! you can still do whatever it was your were doing and that should not affect you in any dramatic way.
Daeges wrote:
"You seem to forget that regardless of the timeline, faith to the movies, canon, whatever. It's just BAD game design to have an alpha class like jedi that isn't "very very very rare"
Is that what we have? One Alfa class? Aren't there 5 different masteries in Jedi, withmany moredifferent combination of double masteries? What comes after? The new FRS hasn't determined what more may come. That aside, let's examine the heart of your statement:
'It's bad game design to have such a class(es) that aren't very rare.' How? Why? What happens? Saying "it's just bad" doesn't help us understand the problem. What does the jedi population at anysize, do to you playing the game? Is all the content consumed? Can you not persue your ambitions? What doors close to you as the jedi population rises?
I am absolutely to lazy to rip your post apart in great length so I'll do it in short and only partly - for now, I'm tired.:
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Should all characters have equal power? If so, then you have removed many of the motives for the game. Why accumulate wealth or experience? If you are guaranteed to have equal power, what good are such things? And if you need not accumulate wealth or experience to have equal power, then you have removed the underpinnings of the economy and the reason for many of the quests. Your guaranteed equal power would give you all you need to do anything in the game, leaving only the thinnest shell of plot and prestige as motives. The game at that point may as well be a first person shooter or single player fantasy game.
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Not the point, to go on let me quote your next part
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This game is unique from other MMORPG’s in that it is not predicated on a table-top game like Dungeons and Dragons. You would not likely hear a “fairness” objection of a level 20 mage being more powerful than a level 7 mage. However, those making the jedi objection based upon the “balance” question seem to be trying to make such a claim, as few can rationally argue that jedi characters with more power then their conventional counterparts have not invested significantly more effort to earn their increased power. Just as a level 80 combat character non-jedi has powers that give him access to opportunities not yet available to a level 10 novice marksman, so too does jedi have advantages over others, and a knight beyond that.
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You can not compare this. The point with SWG is that it is a single class which is dominating the game. Yes, there is effort (in terms of time) invested in a jedi, but that is not the point when it comes to PvP since it should be possible for a, to grab your metaphor, level 80 bounty to fight a level 80 jedi under "fair" and "equal" conditions power wise. You totally fail to get the point of what is really being discussed among the more mature BH/Jedi community.
The problem is not that we have our level 7 mages bitching about our level 20 mages, we have a class which is dominating other classes which is clearly not as it should be like.
To go on with that, we will have to expand your question:
Is it appropriate that a level 20 paladin complains about a level 20 mage who roots him and then kills him off by getting out of his range and throwing fireballs at him? No, for as long as the paladin has appropriate counter-measures, there is no problem; With jedi, the issue is different, there are no counter-measures and jedi are just more powerful in all prospects than any normal class.
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ut in a MMORPG, you have to consider that a community needs equal opportunity, and there are not very many attractive ways to ration the number of jedi that does not lead to inequality of opportunity. Also, you need to leave the goal in tact, even if some never can put in enough effort to attain it. Though many may not make the full journey, it may be rewarding enough for many to travel some of the road. Taking away the destination, or limiting it to some circumstance of luck, removes motive for many to keep striving forward.
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No problem at all. Implement a pseudo-perma-death system where there can only be X jedi per X*Y (say 100) people registered on that server.
Everyone who fulfilled/fulfills the requirements, whatever they might be, gets a second slot with a jedi he is allowed to train - however, whenever he dies he is penalised by losing (say) a certain amount of exp based on his level and suspended until another slot opens up due to another jedi dying.
Wouldn't that be an option?
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An interesting counter-question to this objection is “how does this impact your ability to play your character? If you woke up tomorrow and the whole server was jedi except you, could you still go out and play?” The answer to such a question is really telling about the underlying objection. In terms of PVE, there is no impact of course, and the number and power of the NPC’s is constant. Indeed, if anything, this development would be beneficial, as anyone in your party would be very helpful in meeting your goals. In terms of PVP, there would be disadvantages in terms of opponents, and advantages in terms of allies. Then of course in JTL, there are no advantages to being a jedi. The honest answer to this is that the population of jedi, be it large or small, has little to do with the gaming experience except the emotional elements of status and ego. Pride aside, the rational arguments do not meet with the reality of the game.
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Err.. sorry.. there is little I can say about this but something vulgar which would include male cattle and their dejecta.
It does make a difference if you are a [insert random combat class here] and involved in the GCW - and all you can fight (player wise) are jedi. It is not just an advantage in allies and a disadvantage in foes, it's an integral problem which excludes you from the GCW and pvp if you have no jedi friends and/or do not want to become one yourself.
Message Edited by Nullified on 07-23-2005 03:17 AM
Thassk wrote:
the most important lesson we can learn in this life ... the most important power in our human world ... is perception ...
not money nor land ... not votes or support.... passion .. anger ...fear .... even science ..can yield more power than the ability to control ones perception .. once you control what one percieves to be as truth .. you dictate their terms of existence to them .. they cease being sentient ...
all those other things will follow .. money .. power ... control ...once you attain the ability to control perception ....
remember that next time while analyzing our government ... or an individuals agenda ... or your place on this earth ....
just the simple fact we are convinced to worship little decorated pieces of paper as power ... the fact we are made to slave for theselittle fancy pieces of paper ... shows how powerful perception is ... because we percieve the dollar bill to hold our salvation .. we all slave towards it ... once you become enlightened youll realize its not that monetary piece of paper the people in power want ... its your inability to see past it ... your devotion to it ... your addiction to those pieces of paper we call money that they want ... its the system .. the machine ....that gives them their wealth and standing ....their ability to control
now im not talking about star wars galaxies or the devs ... the devs dont have anything to do with this ...
all im saying is .. george lucas is a nazi ... and he peddles jedi out to people like crack ...
kenner toys ... cartoons for the kids ... two trilogies ... t-shirts .. replica lightsabers ...jedi cereal .. jedi special edition license plates ... jedi tattoos ...video games... soundtracks ...TV shows ...you name it, you can find a special edition with a jedi engraved into it
movie maker my butt ... hes a fantasy drug dealer
and i dont care how fancy and how well articulated your post is daeges ... your just an ADDICT! ... first sign is DENIAL!
Message Edited by Thassk on 07-22-2005 05:33 PM
I dont mean to be rude, but your nuts!! George lucas a nazi??? you must be high, he just made a freakin movie and a bunch of cool stuff to go with it. How does that compare him to the biggest mass murderers of all time??? If you compare this game, or Jedi or whatever to crack, or drugs, or whatever then you seriously need to find something else to do. Get a support group or something, no Im seriously concerned for you! Its just a freaking game, and alot of people have fun in it.
my character is a jedi and that is alot of fun for me, no I dont act all uber, but even if I did thats none of your business anyway so dont try to tell me what to do!! Just play the game, and if you have concerns about it then dont play, its a free country. Spend your time on things that dont make you sound raving mad!
Message Edited by JakeA007 on 07-22-2005 08:38 PM
JakeA007 wrote:
cibode wrote:
oh my gosh!!!! what a freakin genius!!! exactly! who cares if someone else is a jedi! you can still do whatever it was your were doing and that should not affect you in any dramatic way.
How about if I want to participate in the GCW? Who wants to PvP against a player (or group of players) who is 1.5 times stronger (as stated by the devs) than them?
Oddly put, but amen.
Daeges wrote:
I have posted this here because this seems to be the place where much of those who advance the cause of the "jedi problem" congregate.
I would like to take a moment and delve into the logic of those who bemoan the existence of jedi or their population. I do not share that view, and struggle to rationalize it beyond emotional positions. From my perspective, I group the objections in variations or combinations of what follows:
“There should be no jedi for player characters.” - this position seems to fall into two broad categories:
“Jedi should be rare and/or exhibit certain characteristics, and permitting players to assume these roles would violate one or both of these.” – This is the mantra of the fan of the movies who view jedi as the principle characters of an epic struggle, and therefore jedi need to be defined much as they were in the films. However, this is a massively multiplayer online role playing game (MMORPG), where there are no central characters and you can not easily compel players to play their characters in any particular way. As a result, people holding this view conclude that jedi should be the purview of non-player characters.
I take exception to the premise that forms these conclusions. If it was to be that our circumstances are to mirror those of the movies, it removes much of the purpose of us playing our characters. If one can not influence the course of events of the environment in any meaningful way, what is the motive of playing? If the outcome is preordained, why not skip ahead to the conclusion, blow up the Death Star, kill the emperor, and proclaim Luke the hero of the day. Indeed, why not just shut off the computer and fire up the DVD player?
Clearly there can not be 10,000 Lukes running around SWG at the center of the plot, each independently controlling their own destiny. However, one of the defining characteristics of a MMORPG is that there is no central character nor preordained conclusion, and to lesser or greater extents, each player changes the world. By building a world with the factions and environment based upon a milieu, but leaving the course of events as an open question, those of us playing are empowered to feel ownership, and this is the attraction of this kind of game over a single player offering.
Lucas tells the tale of a few characters in an epic struggle, and heightens the drama by setting into motion of course of events whereby the choices of a very select few will impact the entire galaxy. It is seemingly always the last of the jedi fighting the last of the sith, the only surviving X-wing with its last torpedo, etc… This makes for good movie drama, but is not reasonable for a community of thousands each wanting to feel some level of ownership.
For this reason in SWG the force is not the exclusive domain of a nearly extinct sect, and exploration of other Star Wars books validates this. Since the force is everywhere, it is only reasonable that there are other factions aside from the jedi and sith who have learned to harness it, as witnessed the Nightsisters on Dathomir. It might be more appropriate terminology to call the characters “force wielders” rather than “jedi”, a term referring to a rank of a particular faction, but it does not alter the premise that if such power exists everywhere, more than just a handful of users will materialize.
While those of us who are fans of the movies are drawn to this game for our love of the characters and the dramas they faced, its plot limitations can not form the basis of a MMORPG that will attract and retain people wanting to make their own way in such a world. While our stories share some similar setting characteristics to those in the movies, our destinies lie along a different path.
“Jedi are too powerful, too unbalancing to the game” is the other common objection to the existence of jedi player characters. This objection is centered upon the game mechanics and the question of “fairness”. Fair, as they say, is a four letter word, but let’s delve into the logic of this objection. In order to make the assertion, one has to operate from the premise that all things should be equal, a socialized perspective of the game. While nobody can argue that fairness in terms of a game’s mechanics is a necessary component to prevent alienation of those treated “unfairly”, the difference of opinion is how to define “fair.”
Should all characters have equal power? If so, then you have removed many of the motives for the game. Why accumulate wealth or experience? If you are guaranteed to have equal power, what good are such things? And if you need not accumulate wealth or experience to have equal power, then you have removed the underpinnings of the economy and the reason for many of the quests. Your guaranteed equal power would give you all you need to do anything in the game, leaving only the thinnest shell of plot and prestige as motives. The game at that point may as well be a first person shooter or single player fantasy game.
MMORPGs give you a sense of entitlement based upon effort. The experience you earn and the wealth you amass give you leverage to improve yourself, thus opening even more avenues to explore. The fairness offered is not one of power, but opportunity. That bears repeating. Fairness exists in SWG in that all players have equal opportunity to achieve. There are no doors that are closed, and everyone has the ability to do whatever anyone else may do provided they exert similar levels of effort. This is one of the main attractions of the MMORPG, and to try to change it would be ruinous.
When pressed, the pretext for this objection is often not that player’s characters should not vary in power, but usually that said power should never significantly exceed the person objecting. This centric view is hinged upon the somewhat hypocritical stance that those voicing the objection are certainly entitled to whatever advantages they currently hold as well earned, but those with more power somehow have not earned it, or at the very least, have the advantage of significantly more free time to invest in earning their reward.
This game is unique from other MMORPG’s in that it is not predicated on a table-top game like Dungeons and Dragons. You would not likely hear a “fairness” objection of a level 20 mage being more powerful than a level 7 mage. However, those making the jedi objection based upon the “balance” question seem to be trying to make such a claim, as few can rationally argue that jedi characters with more power then their conventional counterparts have not invested significantly more effort to earn their increased power. Just as a level 80 combat character non-jedi has powers that give him access to opportunities not yet available to a level 10 novice marksman, so too does jedi have advantages over others, and a knight beyond that.
If there are to be variances in power, then there are going to be those with significantly more power. Provided that there is opportunity for all to earn such powers, and that all levels of characters have material available to them to enjoy the game, then the position of unfairness is hard to defend.
The other group of those offering objection are those who acknowledge the availability of jedi characters to players, but object to how it is currently implemented, and often fall into categories similar to those above:
“There are too many jedi / it is too easy to become a jedi” – this objection draws upon the some of the same premises as the “Jedi should be rare” group above, but differ in that they wish to leave an avenue open for some select subset of players to be jedi. They cite many of the same specifics of the movie plot/timeline as the “Jedi should be rare” group, and therefore I’ll refer back to similar logic to refute it. The reason I put this group in separately is because it is worthwhile to explore how they come to a different conclusion than those advocating an outright prohibition.
The logic twist of leaving an avenue open but in some way making it more rare becomes more telling when you discover if they themselves are or wish to be a jedi. I liken this line of thinking to “the traffic problems in this area would be solved if everyone else would simply stay off the road so I can get to where I am going.” The allure of the prestige of being one of the few, or putting yourself in the hero or villains shoes, is very compelling.
But in a MMORPG, you have to consider that a community needs equal opportunity, and there are not very many attractive ways to ration the number of jedi that does not lead to inequality of opportunity. Also, you need to leave the goal in tact, even if some never can put in enough effort to attain it. Though many may not make the full journey, it may be rewarding enough for many to travel some of the road. Taking away the destination, or limiting it to some circumstance of luck, removes motive for many to keep striving forward.
The other reality that comes into play here is time. You can make the journey as long as you like, but as time goes on, more and more will reach the end. The number of characters attaining any level, including jedi, is going to grow with the passing of time, if only as a result of it being one of the last avenues for veteran players in which to invest. Any artificial limitations on the jedi population will have to account for the fact that with time more are going to qualify no matter how high you set the bar, and if there is to be relative rarity of jedi, something will have to artificially limit or systematically remove jedi. Such measure would also lead to inequality of opportunity.
An interesting counter-question to this objection is “how does this impact your ability to play your character? If you woke up tomorrow and the whole server was jedi except you, could you still go out and play?” The answer to such a question is really telling about the underlying objection. In terms of PVE, there is no impact of course, and the number and power of the NPC’s is constant. Indeed, if anything, this development would be beneficial, as anyone in your party would be very helpful in meeting your goals. In terms of PVP, there would be disadvantages in terms of opponents, and advantages in terms of allies. Then of course in JTL, there are no advantages to being a jedi. The honest answer to this is that the population of jedi, be it large or small, has little to do with the gaming experience except the emotional elements of status and ego. Pride aside, the rational arguments do not meet with the reality of the game.
“Jedis should not be more powerful than any other player.” This mirrors the pretext of the “jedis would be unbalancing” crowd, but differs in its conclusion, deciding instead of precluding them as a player character, simply make them equal to any other high level character. The logic behind this objection is a parallel to the one above, so again I’ll offer the same counter, but would like to explore the difference in conclusion.
This group is clearly on the bandwagon of there being a “jedi problem”, but is diametrically opposite of the movie purists in terms of the rarity of Jedi. For one would have to reasonably conclude that if a jedi is to be no more or less powerful than a master rifleman for instance, then there should be no different requirement in terms of attaining jedi than that of the any other master combat class. To that end, there would be as many jedi as there would any other class, more perhaps accounting for prestige.
Indeed, there would also have to be a serious redesign of the purpose of the bounty hunter, of which the primary game mechanic is to add some difficulty to the attainment of jedi. But if there is not going to be any more power to jedi, and therefore the road need not be any harder to get it, then there is no need for bounty hunters to hunt them. One has to muse about how many of the people holding this position are bounty hunters who have not thought their position all the way to its conclusion. I also ponder how many of the movie purists and nerf the jedi crowd know they are in the same “jedi problem” camp but wanting conclusions that are at opposite ends of the spectrum.
Those are the main groups of objections I have witnessed to the so-called “jedi problem”. I understand them, and on some emotional levels even identify with a bit of the sentiment that is expressed within them. But rationally thinking about the overall welfare of the community, I do not subscribe to the premises that form those conclusions.
SWG is a MMORPG, and therefore can not parallel the “handful of heroes saving the galaxy opposed by a handful of ultra powerful villains” that forms plot line of the movies. Rather this game needs to offer its community equal opportunity to experience all levels of adventure, rewards supporting the level of effort, and the sense of ownership that being able to effect the environment in some meaningful way gives. By definition, this means that SWG will differ from the movies and single player adventure games with the small population character focus, and first person shooter games and its equality of power. There are games like Knights of the Old Republic and Star Wars Battlefront which offer those kinds of experiences set in the Star Wars milieu.
SWG is different. You can effect this world, even if only in a small way. There is no preordained conclusion. It is a community, and no one player or subset of players can nor should be the focus of the plot. You have equal opportunity to attain what others do, and your efforts are met with meaningful and lasting rewards, economically, politically, and in prowess. Jedi are a part of that formulation, and with good reason.
MMORPG are an incredible investment in time, and many of the frustrations in making that investment result in emotional rhetoric. I ask those of you who feel there is a Jedi problem to read this carefully what I have offered, and divorce the emotional arguments to distill the rational ones. Put aside your own current situation, and think about the thousands of other who have come to this game to experience their own brand of adventure, and the needs of the community as a whole. If you view this openly and fairly, you may come to understand the so-called “jedi problem” in a different way.
I myself have been playing this game just short of a year. When I learned what it took to become a jedi, then to amass any level of power with it, and the setbacks that bounty hunters give, I resigned very early on that I likely would never be a jedi. I knew that those who make it have either been at it for much longer than I or have much more free time to invest in the game. In either case, I don’t begrudge them for having something I don’t. Indeed, I have to give them some measure of respect for being so devoted and enduring what they had to do.
I took the time to write this because I have grown weary of thehyperbole and hatredwith only the thinnest of ration to them. We have to remember that this is not a contest, and there are no winners and no prizes. We have come together in a community to share a virtual experience in a setting we all find compelling, and that we all have much more in common than is different. With that in mind, I hope those who read here find moment to pause and reflect upon why we have gathered and our collective obligation to one another to foster our community.
Thank you for your attention.
-Daeges
dang that is deep man i agree with every word if devs read and actually did this it would have to be one of the coolest things that happend to this game.
Someone asked what Jedi have taken away from ME in the game. One of the most important things to me... the GCW PvP. If you are not a Jedi you have very little purpose PvP wise. Yeah, you may get to slice the base term.. woohoo (sarcasm). On Ahazi most PvP events end up being Jedi gank squads. I want to play star wars! I want to hear blaster fire. I want to see storm troopers and ATATs and ATSTs.
There is a major problem allowing one class to be all powerful. Everyone will want to become one and the game will become KotoR online. I mean seriously. Those of us around when there were no Jedi will remember when people played their professions and LIKED it. It wasn't a stepping stone to be an Uber Jedi. It was really cool seeing a Jedi. Especially one using their saber or the Force, which led to a TEF.
Mallize wrote:
There is a major problem allowing one class to be all powerful. Everyone will want to become one and the game will become KotoR online. I mean seriously. Those of us around when there were no Jedi will remember when people played their professions and LIKED it. It wasn't a stepping stone to be an Uber Jedi. It was really cool seeing a Jedi. Especially one using their saber or the Force, which led to a TEF.
Holy cow! I remember seeing one of the very early Jedi. It was well before the hologrind (if I remember correctly, that started in October with killing FSs and got REALLY bad when they gave EVERYONE one for Christmas!)
Jedi used to mean something significant. There was risk for being a Jedi, and the rewards matched it.
Not, the rewards are great, Jedi are in abundance, and there is very little risk (Permadeath, while not the best system, certainly would have kept the Jedi population low - remember, you didn't lose your Jedi, just the skills.) You had to make damned sure you weren't showing off at the starport. Now, everyone does it. It's pretty sad.
/sigh - the good ol' days.
Rellium123 wrote:
While we're on the topic of all this BH/Jedi hate, I'll mention my little pet peeve: the BHers who justify their gaming as "controlling the Jedi population." Got some news for ya, guys: there are exactly as many Jedi out there AFTER you DB that CL 41 new padawan as before you do it.