Bounty Hunter Archive
Thread: Jedi keep talking about the risk....I THINK I figured it out..
When did anyone care about ethics? BH's are supposed to kill jedi any place any where. And for those people that say that regular proffessions dont get such great skills. You must remember. Jedis give up alot of stuff to get to that point. Jedi is not one tree. its 5 trees that you will have to choose from. a regular proffession can be grinded in 2 days tops. Jedi takes alot longer and requires alot of prerequisites.
Yes. AFK grinding is lame as hell. I personally wish they would get rid of afk macroing. Also cant wait for the removal of group visibility. So I can get my butt off of Kassykk. Miss solo grinding on Yavin.
Leatherneck_of_Alderaan wrote:
Tucheck wrote:
Kalandra wrote:
I don't know why BHs complain about this so much, its not ONLY jedi that grind there. in fact once, I took a group down consisting of purely non-jedi. Witha couple LVL 80 FS grinders, and the rest still grinding up to a lvl 80 template. The only reason you see so many jedi down there, is becuase the jedi grind is so much longer, yet we get so much less xp.Everyone wants to grind xp, because its more fun to play as a full template than it is to lay on your backside every ten minutes. Don't hate jedi who grind here, at the keyboard, or away from the keyboard, because everybody does it, not just jedi. If you want something to hate, hate the jedi who run and hide on the bridge when they get a BH inbound.
VERY SIMPLE....WHEN NORMAL PROFESSIONS ARE DONE GRINDING, THEY DON'T HAVE POWERS LIKE CLOAK, STASIS, AND MASTER SABERS
There is a BIG difference (to me) between being able to grind out a normal profession that I actually stand a chance against in a fight....and a Jedi being granted much stronger powers for doing "NOTHING". I DO take it as an insult to ALL of us who have been around longer then at LEAST a year....but like I said...some Jedi as suppose to take longer then others....at THIS rate, all the SWG Devs have introduced is the NEXT installment in the Star Wars saga : Star Wars Ep. 3.8 : Jedi Clone Farming
Jedi...I'll even say the ones who used shady means (because by todays standard, the exploits of yesterday are childs play compared to what goes on now...that and it's SO flagrant) deserved to be a Jedi WITH Jedi powers...all the people in this thread bitching about the fact that I, one player, have a problem with there being NO risk in obtaining a Jedi need to know ONE thing....you DON'T deserve it. To top everything off, you KNOW you don't deserve it, and you are delighted in the fact that you can achieve what YOU may perceive as "end game" (I do not) with little to NO effort. If it's not the NUMBER of Jedi that's is a big problem for the SWG community, then it is most certainly "that attitude". I swear...I wish the Devs would do a server wipe of all Jedi less then 4 months old, let you cancel your accounts, destroy the village, and hide the path to Jedi once again. The more these Jedi whine and complain because I'm more "in your face" about how they don't deserve it, the more fuel it thows on the fire, because it's obvious that it hits a nerve...and I'll just keep on hitting.
Flame away "care bear fan boys"....you talking to a guy who doesn't make it a habit to "fix" his hair to impress strangers in public, you really think ANYTHING you say to me is going to change the way I feel about the means to which you insult this game?
Stasis = ParalyzeMSabers < MSwordsman.
Cloak > Conceal, I agree.
Wrong my friend:
Paralyze does NO damage
Stasis has hit me for 300+ damage and last at least TWICE as long.
Let's compare Master Swords and Master Sabers:
Gen Melee Acc Sw:85 Sa:75 Swords wins
Gen Melee defense Sw:85 Sa:25 (saber block) Swords wins
Gen Melee speed Sw:25 Sa:20 Swords wins
Swords wins this one
One handed acc Sw:65 Sa:140 Sabers Wins
One handed speed Sw:30 Sa:100 Sabers Wins
One handed def Sw:40 Sa:0 Swords win
Sabers wins this one
Two handed acc Sw:110 Sa:140 Sabers win
Two handed speed Sw:75 Sa:100 Sabers wins
Two handed def Sw:50 Sa:0 Swords wins
Sabers wins this one
Both come with just about the same specials: Armor break, Head hit, Power hit...Sabers does have a ranged KD though and SOME pre-CU sabers have been seen hitting for 900-1000 per hit AFTER armor mitigation. To the BEST of my knowledge...NO Master Swordsman has come close to this.
I didn't even do the double bladed skills...that's just a choice of weapons and I find it to be moot.
Sorry, but I would have to say that Master Lightsabers BEATS Master Swordsman.
Finally we come to Cloak vs. Conceal:
Conceal is limited to the prone position and cannot be engaged with anyone (sometimes anything...like speeders and droids) within a 30m radius. Conceal also breaks when anyone (and once again, anything) comes within, I believe 20 or 15m, of the players using conceal.
Cloak is ONLY dependent only on the amount of Force the player has. It can be used at anytime and can be used while walking and less then 0m from other players. The cost is so low currently, that I and 3 friends fought a Jedi last night while he stayed cloaked for roughly 10 - 12 minutes with all of us standing around...I DO understand that to use cloak to THAT extent it is dependent on Force channeling. Furthermore....Cloak is located on the 4th tier, where as Conceal is located on the 1st tier.
Nonetheless....I think it's SAFE to say that the versatility of Cloak over Conceal makes it a much more powerful ability. Cloak wins.
So let's re-cap with the newly added "supporting arguments"....
Stasis > Paralyze
MLS > Master Swordsman
Cloak > Conceal
Nice try, but you really didn't expect me to "roll over" for THIS one did you. Give me some credit please.
Tucheck wrote:
Leatherneck_of_Alderaan wrote:
Tucheck wrote:
Kalandra wrote:
I don't know why BHs complain about this so much, its not ONLY jedi that grind there. in fact once, I took a group down consisting of purely non-jedi. With
a couple LVL 80 FS grinders, and the rest still grinding up to a lvl 80 template. The only reason you see so many jedi down there, is becuase the jedi grind is so much longer, yet we get so much less xp.
Everyone wants to grind xp, because its more fun to play as a full template than it is to lay on your backside every ten minutes. Don't hate jedi who grind here, at the keyboard, or away from the keyboard, because everybody does it, not just jedi. If you want something to hate, hate the jedi who run and hide on the bridge when they get a BH inbound.
VERY SIMPLE....WHEN NORMAL PROFESSIONS ARE DONE GRINDING, THEY DON'T HAVE POWERS LIKE CLOAK, STASIS, AND MASTER SABERS
There is a BIG difference (to me) between being able to grind out a normal profession that I actually stand a chance against in a fight....and a Jedi being granted much stronger powers for doing "NOTHING". I DO take it as an insult to ALL of us who have been around longer then at LEAST a year....but like I said...some Jedi as suppose to take longer then others....at THIS rate, all the SWG Devs have introduced is the NEXT installment in the Star Wars saga : Star Wars Ep. 3.8 : Jedi Clone Farming
Jedi...I'll even say the ones who used shady means (because by todays standard, the exploits of yesterday are childs play compared to what goes on now...that and it's SO flagrant) deserved to be a Jedi WITH Jedi powers...all the people in this thread bitching about the fact that I, one player, have a problem with there being NO risk in obtaining a Jedi need to know ONE thing....you DON'T deserve it. To top everything off, you KNOW you don't deserve it, and you are delighted in the fact that you can achieve what YOU may perceive as "end game" (I do not) with little to NO effort. If it's not the NUMBER of Jedi that's is a big problem for the SWG community, then it is most certainly "that attitude". I swear...I wish the Devs would do a server wipe of all Jedi less then 4 months old, let you cancel your accounts, destroy the village, and hide the path to Jedi once again. The more these Jedi whine and complain because I'm more "in your face" about how they don't deserve it, the more fuel it thows on the fire, because it's obvious that it hits a nerve...and I'll just keep on hitting.
Flame away "care bear fan boys"....you talking to a guy who doesn't make it a habit to "fix" his hair to impress strangers in public, you really think ANYTHING you say to me is going to change the way I feel about the means to which you insult this game?
Stasis = Paralyze
MSabers < MSwordsman.
Cloak > Conceal, I agree.
Wrong my friend:
Paralyze does NO damage
Stasis has hit me for 300+ damage and last at least TWICE as long.
Let's compare Master Swords and Master Sabers:
Gen Melee Acc Sw:85 Sa:75 Swords wins
Gen Melee defense Sw:85 Sa:25 (saber block) Swords wins
Gen Melee speed Sw:25 Sa:20 Swords wins
Swords wins this one
One handed acc Sw:65 Sa:140 Sabers Wins
One handed speed Sw:30 Sa:100 Sabers Wins
One handed def Sw:40 Sa:0 Swords win
Sabers wins this one
Two handed acc Sw:110 Sa:140 Sabers win
Two handed speed Sw:75 Sa:100 Sabers wins
Two handed def Sw:50 Sa:0 Swords wins
Sabers wins this one
Both come with just about the same specials: Armor break, Head hit, Power hit...Sabers does have a ranged KD though and SOME pre-CU sabers have been seen hitting for 900-1000 per hit AFTER armor mitigation. To the BEST of my knowledge...NO Master Swordsman has come close to this.
I didn't even do the double bladed skills...that's just a choice of weapons and I find it to be moot.
Sorry, but I would have to say that Master Lightsabers BEATS Master Swordsman.
Finally we come to Cloak vs. Conceal:
Conceal is limited to the prone position and cannot be engaged with anyone (sometimes anything...like speeders and droids) within a 30m radius. Conceal also breaks when anyone (and once again, anything) comes within, I believe 20 or 15m, of the players using conceal.
Cloak is ONLY dependent only on the amount of Force the player has. It can be used at anytime and can be used while walking and less then 0m from other players. The cost is so low currently, that I and 3 friends fought a Jedi last night while he stayed cloaked for roughly 10 - 12 minutes with all of us standing around...I DO understand that to use cloak to THAT extent it is dependent on Force channeling. Furthermore....Cloak is located on the 4th tier, where as Conceal is located on the 1st tier.
Nonetheless....I think it's SAFE to say that the versatility of Cloak over Conceal makes it a much more powerful ability. Cloak wins.
So let's re-cap with the newly added "supporting arguments"....
Stasis > Paralyze
MLS > Master Swordsman
Cloak > Conceal
Nice try, but you really didn't expect me to "roll over" for THIS one did you. Give me some credit please.
Good attempt, however.
Your post did say 'powers like stasis, MLS and Cloak'. All of those are like them. I ceded you conceal vs cloak.
300 damage is a pittance when talking about player vs player. Would you use a gun that only did 300 damage? I suspect you'd turn your nose up at it and rightly so.
Further, the swordsman vs saber comparison is incomplete. Let's talk about damage. let's talk about the fact that a swordsman gets innate defenses with their discipline whereas a MLS gets virtually none.
CIO_TalonD wrote:
aekeem wrote:
ImageAccess wrote:
Tucheck wrote:
Leatherneck_of_Alderaan wrote:
Tucheck wrote:
Kalandra wrote:
.
Stasis = Paralyze
MSabers < MSwordsman.
Cloak > Conceal, I agree.
Wrong my friend:
Paralyze does NO damage
Stasis has hit me for 300+ damage and last at least TWICE as long.
Could you also compare concussion and other mezzes/roots? (I'm ignorant to the damage they do)
Let's compare Master Swords and Master Sabers: Your numbers are flawed, in part, because I think you're reading what you want into it. Look at it in the scope of combat (simply damage vs damage + mods because really, what mswords would use 1h?).
Swordsman Def MLS
Melee 135 (50 from class specific + 85 from general) Melee 0
Ranged 60 (all general) Ranged 0
Even if we consider block - advantage Swordsman
Swordsman Speed/Accuracy MLS
Speed 100 (75 class specific + 25 general) Speed for all 120 (100 per style +20 general)
Accuracy 195 (110 class specific + 85 general) Accuracy 215 (140 per style + 75 general)
Advantage MLS
If you will consider this a tie,what should the tie breaker be? The fact MSwords can wear armor? Or how about weapons? Should we consider damage? And if so how do we rate them based on weapons? At whatpointdo we factor indiminishing returns? Do we consider tapes and foods? Should we consider skill enhancing stims? What aboutcybernetics? **a littlesilly isn't it?**
And seeing as MLS is clearly outclassed in damage yet only mildlybetter in accuracy and speed...is it truly a tie?
Gen Melee Acc Sw:85 Sa:75 Swords wins
Gen Melee defense Sw:85 Sa:25 (saber block) Swords wins
Gen Melee speed Sw:25 Sa:20 Swords wins
Swords wins this one
One handed acc Sw:65 Sa:140 Sabers Wins
One handed speed Sw:30 Sa:100 Sabers Wins
One handed def Sw:40 Sa:0 Swords win
Sabers wins this one
Two handed acc Sw:110 Sa:140 Sabers win
Two handed speed Sw:75 Sa:100 Sabers wins
Two handed def Sw:50 Sa:0 Swords wins
Sabers wins this one
Both come with just about the same specials: Armor break, Head hit, Power hit...Sabers does have a ranged KD though and SOME pre-CU sabers have been seen hitting for 900-1000 per hit AFTER armor mitigation. To the BEST of my knowledge...NO Master Swordsman has come close to this.
I didn't even do the double bladed skills...that's just a choice of weapons and I find it to be moot.
Sorry, but I would have to say that Master Lightsabers BEATS Master Swordsman.
Finally we come to Cloak vs. Conceal:
Conceal is limited to the prone position and cannot be engaged with anyone (sometimes anything...like speeders and droids) within a 30m radius. Conceal also breaks when anyone (and once again, anything) comes within, I believe 20 or 15m, of the players using conceal. This is being changed to allow group members in on it...
Cloak is ONLY dependent only on the amount of Force the player has. It can be used at anytime (must be at minimum 20 m from anyone/npc or thing *yes there are cases of bikes causing the cloak to fail*) **taken from the Jedi FAQ's in the Jedi forum
Name FC FC Drain (per player within 22m) States/Effects
Force Cloak 150 25/cycle(10 secs) User becomes invisible, cannot attack/be attacked
and can be used while walking and less then 0m from other players. The cost is so low currently, that I and 3 friends fought a Jedi last night while he stayed cloaked for roughly 10 - 12 minutes with all of us standing around...I DO understand that to use cloak to THAT extent it is dependent on Force channeling. Furthermore....Cloak is located on the 4th tier, where as Conceal is located on the 1st tier.
Nonetheless....I think it's SAFE to say that the versatility of Cloak over Conceal makes it a much more powerful ability. Cloak wins. As it should be. Even if a rifleman afk's his profession and a jedi does the same...it would take longer to gain cloak compared to conceal. Now, if you want to not insult all Jedi, those that earned it have deserved to use it. I would say the same for the lesser powerful conceal.
So let's re-cap with the newly added "supporting arguments"....
Stasis > Paralyze got me there if you strictly consider "damage"
MLS > Master Swordsman I disagree completely
Cloak > Conceal If you don't consider the downsides to cloak (force cost/activation) yeah its better as it should be
If we simply look at these skills I would agree with stasis and cloak. However, they should be more powerful for the excess "time" required to gain them. Now, if you want to argue that no afk player should be able to gain xp, then fine...I'd agree with you (as thats the only thing I and others, can ascertain from this thread).
As for MLS vs Master Swords...I'd totally disagree. MLS is crap alone. Whereas Swords is pretty decent alone. Argue with the real numbers all you want and consider the additional highlighted arguements and address them. Or better yet dismiss me as usual.
Nice try, but you really didn't expect me to "roll over" for THIS one did you. Give me some credit please.
Probably won't be able to follow my train of thought but oh well right?
one thing you aren't considering is skill point investment, mswords is 106 skill pts, mls is 89. that's the big problem here is that jedi want to compare their skills to a profession that invests more skill points to get slightly better skills, but jedi have access to a huge variety of skills that they can pick up for relatively few skill points.
cover is 54, cloak is 28, need i go on?
106 sp for master swords includes the brawler skills needed to get to swordsman some by that same line of though yes it is 89sp for master lightsaber but add in the criteria needed to get padawan(24sp worth of fs skills) and the total xp needed to obtain master lightsabers is 113sp which by my calculations is 7 sp more that it take to get master swords.
but let us go a bit further in our comparrison MLS takes 8.82 million jedi xp which is roughly one fifth of the normally xp earned by a normall profession(Swords) so in actuality is is equivilant to 44.1 million xp that swordsman would have to earn if they wanted to be equivilant to jedi but lets go a bit further our precurser requirements FS XP for FS boxes 6 lines of FS @ a combined total of 7.35 million fs xp needed before you can even think about going MLS. Now lets add in the time element of 18 weeks if you have to do the entire village and see six phases.
So MLS= 8.82 mil jedi XP\
7.35 mil FS XP
and 113 skill points and consuming no less than 18 weeks to achieve(and that's if you become padawan and can grind quickly enough to get MLS in the same week(not likely))
Swordsman= 3.89 mil 2handed xp
415k combat XP
106 skillpoints and about a day to master(if that, I did it in about 3 hours on Dant in groups)
So i guess what i'm saying is your so right...MLS shouldn't be anywhere near as strong as a swordsman with all the time and effort put into getting swordsman. /sarcasm off
OH, i almost forgot the realists point of view. Don't ya think that a weapon made of focussed energy should outdamage a big hammer? Just thought i'd throw that in there with all the other nuggets i just threw at ya.
/flame on (I love saying that..makes me feel like the fire guy from fantasic 4)
Message Edited by aekeem on 07-14-2005 01:43 PM
aekeem wrote:
ok instead of using amount of skill points lets use percentage then, jedi we'll say have 226 available skill points, normals have 250
mls = 39% of your available skill pts
mswords = 42% of your available skill pts
now lets take this a bit further and lets say i wanted to attempt to recreate a jedi-like toon without any fs skills
mswords + cover line of rifles = 160 of 250 available skill points, so 64% of my skill points are used up
mls + cloak = 117 of 226 available skill points, so 51% of my skill points are used up
There is a flaw in everyone's logic when comparing % of skill points used in Jedi and in Regular professions.
Jedi pick skills from disciplines and Non-Jedi pick skills from complete professsions. If you find my logic flawed this is the very reason Tanks explained to all Jedi why they have to invest into Defender if they want to get defense when Jedi complained regular profession got them automatically.
IMO Jedi should be dismanteled as it makes no sense in the current combat system. What should happen is they bring 3 or4 complete templates for a Jedi (just like non-Jedi) and let them choose which ones they want. Each profession will provide everything like non-Jedi templates do and will excell at ceratin areas such as Crowdcontrol, damage dealing, defense ect... It's easier to balance that way against normal professions. That way when doing direct comparisons of how much skill points ones uses for X skill can be balanced between Jedi and non-Jedi.
I don't expect any non-Jedi to understand why I think a Jedi who spreads himself out all over the place to get multiple skills from every discipline is dumbbut trust me they are in the end gimping themselves. This I know from experience when I tried out this combination in an attempt to get everything:
MLS / Ehancer 4xx4 / Defense xx4x / Powers x4xx / Healer 4xxx
I can say I didn't have much success as the DEfenses were minimal and found I needed to heal and cloak more than fight.
aekeem wrote:
CIO_TalonD wrote:
aekeem wrote:
ImageAccess wrote:
Tucheck wrote:
Leatherneck_of_Alderaan wrote:
Tucheck wrote:
Kalandra wrote:
.
Stasis = Paralyze
MSabers < MSwordsman.
Cloak > Conceal, I agree.
Wrong my friend:
Paralyze does NO damage
Stasis has hit me for 300+ damage and last at least TWICE as long.
Could you also compare concussion and other mezzes/roots? (I'm ignorant to the damage they do)
Let's compare Master Swords and Master Sabers: Your numbers are flawed, in part, because I think you're reading what you want into it. Look at it in the scope of combat (simply damage vs damage + mods because really, what mswords would use 1h?).
Swordsman Def MLS
Melee 135 (50 from class specific + 85 from general) Melee 0
Ranged 60 (all general) Ranged 0
Even if we consider block - advantage Swordsman
Swordsman Speed/Accuracy MLS
Speed 100 (75 class specific + 25 general) Speed for all 120 (100 per style +20 general)
Accuracy 195 (110 class specific + 85 general) Accuracy 215 (140 per style + 75 general)
Advantage MLS
If you will consider this a tie,what should the tie breaker be? The fact MSwords can wear armor? Or how about weapons? Should we consider damage? And if so how do we rate them based on weapons? At whatpointdo we factor indiminishing returns? Do we consider tapes and foods? Should we consider skill enhancing stims? What aboutcybernetics? **a littlesilly isn't it?**
And seeing as MLS is clearly outclassed in damage yet only mildlybetter in accuracy and speed...is it truly a tie?
Gen Melee Acc Sw:85 Sa:75 Swords wins
Gen Melee defense Sw:85 Sa:25 (saber block) Swords wins
Gen Melee speed Sw:25 Sa:20 Swords wins
Swords wins this one
One handed acc Sw:65 Sa:140 Sabers Wins
One handed speed Sw:30 Sa:100 Sabers Wins
One handed def Sw:40 Sa:0 Swords win
Sabers wins this one
Two handed acc Sw:110 Sa:140 Sabers win
Two handed speed Sw:75 Sa:100 Sabers wins
Two handed def Sw:50 Sa:0 Swords wins
Sabers wins this one
Both come with just about the same specials: Armor break, Head hit, Power hit...Sabers does have a ranged KD though and SOME pre-CU sabers have been seen hitting for 900-1000 per hit AFTER armor mitigation. To the BEST of my knowledge...NO Master Swordsman has come close to this.
I didn't even do the double bladed skills...that's just a choice of weapons and I find it to be moot.
Sorry, but I would have to say that Master Lightsabers BEATS Master Swordsman.
Finally we come to Cloak vs. Conceal:
Conceal is limited to the prone position and cannot be engaged with anyone (sometimes anything...like speeders and droids) within a 30m radius. Conceal also breaks when anyone (and once again, anything) comes within, I believe 20 or 15m, of the players using conceal. This is being changed to allow group members in on it...
Cloak is ONLY dependent only on the amount of Force the player has. It can be used at anytime (must be at minimum 20 m from anyone/npc or thing *yes there are cases of bikes causing the cloak to fail*) **taken from the Jedi FAQ's in the Jedi forum
Name FC FC Drain (per player within 22m) States/Effects
Force Cloak 150 25/cycle(10 secs) User becomes invisible, cannot attack/be attacked
and can be used while walking and less then 0m from other players. The cost is so low currently, that I and 3 friends fought a Jedi last night while he stayed cloaked for roughly 10 - 12 minutes with all of us standing around...I DO understand that to use cloak to THAT extent it is dependent on Force channeling. Furthermore....Cloak is located on the 4th tier, where as Conceal is located on the 1st tier.
Nonetheless....I think it's SAFE to say that the versatility of Cloak over Conceal makes it a much more powerful ability. Cloak wins. As it should be. Even if a rifleman afk's his profession and a jedi does the same...it would take longer to gain cloak compared to conceal. Now, if you want to not insult all Jedi, those that earned it have deserved to use it. I would say the same for the lesser powerful conceal.
So let's re-cap with the newly added "supporting arguments"....
Stasis > Paralyze got me there if you strictly consider "damage"
MLS > Master Swordsman I disagree completely
Cloak > Conceal If you don't consider the downsides to cloak (force cost/activation) yeah its better as it should be
If we simply look at these skills I would agree with stasis and cloak. However, they should be more powerful for the excess "time" required to gain them. Now, if you want to argue that no afk player should be able to gain xp, then fine...I'd agree with you (as thats the only thing I and others, can ascertain from this thread).
As for MLS vs Master Swords...I'd totally disagree. MLS is crap alone. Whereas Swords is pretty decent alone. Argue with the real numbers all you want and consider the additional highlighted arguements and address them. Or better yet dismiss me as usual.
Nice try, but you really didn't expect me to "roll over" for THIS one did you. Give me some credit please.
Probably won't be able to follow my train of thought but oh well right?
one thing you aren't considering is skill point investment, mswords is 106 skill pts, mls is 89. that's the big problem here is that jedi want to compare their skills to a profession that invests more skill points to get slightly better skills, but jedi have access to a huge variety of skills that they can pick up for relatively few skill points.
cover is 54, cloak is 28, need i go on?
106 sp for master swords includes the brawler skills needed to get to swordsman some by that same line of though yes it is 89sp for master lightsaber but add in the criteria needed to get padawan(24sp worth of fs skills) and the total xp needed to obtain master lightsabers is 113sp which by my calculations is 7 sp more that it take to get master swords.
but let us go a bit further in our comparrison MLS takes 8.82 million jedi xp which is roughly one fifth of the normally xp earned by a normall profession(Swords) so in actuality is is equivilant to 44.1 million xp that swordsman would have to earn if they wanted to be equivilant to jedi but lets go a bit further our precurser requirements FS XP for FS boxes 6 lines of FS @ a combined total of 7.35 million fs xp needed before you can even think about going MLS. Now lets add in the time element of 18 weeks if you have to do the entire village and see six phases.
So MLS= 8.82 mil jedi XP\
7.35 mil FS XP
and 113 skill points and consuming no less than 18 weeks to achieve(and that's if you become padawan and can grind quickly enough to get MLS in the same week(not likely))
Swordsman= 3.89 mil 2handed xp
415k combat XP
106 skillpoints and about a day to master(if that, I did it in about 3 hours on Dant in groups)
So i guess what i'm saying is your so right...MLS shouldn't be anywhere near as strong as a swordsman with all the time and effort put into getting swordsman. /sarcasm off
OH, i almost forgot the realists point of view. Don't ya think that a weapon made of focussed energy should outdamage a big hammer? Just thought i'd throw that in there with all the other nuggets i just threw at ya.
/flame on (I love saying that..makes me feel like the fire guy from fantasic 4)
ok instead of using amount of skill points lets use percentage then, jedi we'll say have 226 available skill points, normals have 250
mls = 39% of your available skill pts
mswords = 42% of your available skill pts
now lets take this a bit further and lets say i wanted to attempt to recreate a jedi-like toon without any fs skills
mswords + cover line of rifles = 160 of 250 available skill points, so 64% of my skill points are used up
mls + cloak = 117 of 226 available skill points, so 51% of my skill points are used up
it shouldn't be that difficult to see how unbalancing it is to give jedi access to so many skills at such low skill point investment
edit- alrght, just noticed this little gem here in bold, i like how you claim 18 weeks for mls and 3 days for mswords, that isn't biased at all lol. i've said this in previous threads, we all know that each fs quest can be completed in about an hour, so 6 hours for all 6 quests, then i was quite generous in giving you 5 days to fill those 6 trees, then i'd say about 3-5 days after that to get master lightsaber. so if my math is right that would be 8-10 days, 6 hours, for master lightsaber, the days you spent waiting for the phase to change don't exactly count as time it takes to grind a prof......
Message Edited by aekeem on 07-14-2005 01:43 PM
It absolutely counts. Two scenarios:
"I wanna play a character with Swordsman". About a week later, you've got a master swordsman. You get what you want in a week.
"I wanna play a character with Master Lightsaber". About 18 weeks later, you've got a master lightsaber. You get what you want 18 weeks later.
18 weeks > 1 week.
Substantial difference.
Leatherneck_of_Alderaan wrote:
aekeem wrote:
CIO_TalonD wrote:
aekeem wrote:
ImageAccess wrote:
Tucheck wrote:
Leatherneck_of_Alderaan wrote:
Tucheck wrote:
Kalandra wrote:
.
Stasis = Paralyze
MSabers < MSwordsman.
Cloak > Conceal, I agree.
Wrong my friend:
Paralyze does NO damage
Stasis has hit me for 300+ damage and last at least TWICE as long.
Could you also compare concussion and other mezzes/roots? (I'm ignorant to the damage they do)
Let's compare Master Swords and Master Sabers: Your numbers are flawed, in part, because I think you're reading what you want into it. Look at it in the scope of combat (simply damage vs damage + mods because really, what mswords would use 1h?).
Swordsman Def MLS
Melee 135 (50 from class specific + 85 from general) Melee 0
Ranged 60 (all general) Ranged 0
Even if we consider block - advantage Swordsman
Swordsman Speed/Accuracy MLS
Speed 100 (75 class specific + 25 general) Speed for all 120 (100 per style +20 general)
Accuracy 195 (110 class specific + 85 general) Accuracy 215 (140 per style + 75 general)
Advantage MLS
If you will consider this a tie,what should the tie breaker be? The fact MSwords can wear armor? Or how about weapons? Should we consider damage? And if so how do we rate them based on weapons? At whatpointdo we factor indiminishing returns? Do we consider tapes and foods? Should we consider skill enhancing stims? What aboutcybernetics? **a littlesilly isn't it?**
And seeing as MLS is clearly outclassed in damage yet only mildlybetter in accuracy and speed...is it truly a tie?
Gen Melee Acc Sw:85 Sa:75 Swords wins
Gen Melee defense Sw:85 Sa:25 (saber block) Swords wins
Gen Melee speed Sw:25 Sa:20 Swords wins
Swords wins this one
One handed acc Sw:65 Sa:140 Sabers Wins
One handed speed Sw:30 Sa:100 Sabers Wins
One handed def Sw:40 Sa:0 Swords win
Sabers wins this one
Two handed acc Sw:110 Sa:140 Sabers win
Two handed speed Sw:75 Sa:100 Sabers wins
Two handed def Sw:50 Sa:0 Swords wins
Sabers wins this one
Both come with just about the same specials: Armor break, Head hit, Power hit...Sabers does have a ranged KD though and SOME pre-CU sabers have been seen hitting for 900-1000 per hit AFTER armor mitigation. To the BEST of my knowledge...NO Master Swordsman has come close to this.
I didn't even do the double bladed skills...that's just a choice of weapons and I find it to be moot.
Sorry, but I would have to say that Master Lightsabers BEATS Master Swordsman.
Finally we come to Cloak vs. Conceal:
Conceal is limited to the prone position and cannot be engaged with anyone (sometimes anything...like speeders and droids) within a 30m radius. Conceal also breaks when anyone (and once again, anything) comes within, I believe 20 or 15m, of the players using conceal. This is being changed to allow group members in on it...
Cloak is ONLY dependent only on the amount of Force the player has. It can be used at anytime (must be at minimum 20 m from anyone/npc or thing *yes there are cases of bikes causing the cloak to fail*) **taken from the Jedi FAQ's in the Jedi forum
Name FC FC Drain (per player within 22m) States/Effects
Force Cloak 150 25/cycle(10 secs) User becomes invisible, cannot attack/be attacked
and can be used while walking and less then 0m from other players. The cost is so low currently, that I and 3 friends fought a Jedi last night while he stayed cloaked for roughly 10 - 12 minutes with all of us standing around...I DO understand that to use cloak to THAT extent it is dependent on Force channeling. Furthermore....Cloak is located on the 4th tier, where as Conceal is located on the 1st tier.
Nonetheless....I think it's SAFE to say that the versatility of Cloak over Conceal makes it a much more powerful ability. Cloak wins. As it should be. Even if a rifleman afk's his profession and a jedi does the same...it would take longer to gain cloak compared to conceal. Now, if you want to not insult all Jedi, those that earned it have deserved to use it. I would say the same for the lesser powerful conceal.
So let's re-cap with the newly added "supporting arguments"....
Stasis > Paralyze got me there if you strictly consider "damage"
MLS > Master Swordsman I disagree completely
Cloak > Conceal If you don't consider the downsides to cloak (force cost/activation) yeah its better as it should be
If we simply look at these skills I would agree with stasis and cloak. However, they should be more powerful for the excess "time" required to gain them. Now, if you want to argue that no afk player should be able to gain xp, then fine...I'd agree with you (as thats the only thing I and others, can ascertain from this thread).
As for MLS vs Master Swords...I'd totally disagree. MLS is crap alone. Whereas Swords is pretty decent alone. Argue with the real numbers all you want and consider the additional highlighted arguements and address them. Or better yet dismiss me as usual.
Nice try, but you really didn't expect me to "roll over" for THIS one did you. Give me some credit please.
Probably won't be able to follow my train of thought but oh well right?
one thing you aren't considering is skill point investment, mswords is 106 skill pts, mls is 89. that's the big problem here is that jedi want to compare their skills to a profession that invests more skill points to get slightly better skills, but jedi have access to a huge variety of skills that they can pick up for relatively few skill points.
cover is 54, cloak is 28, need i go on?
106 sp for master swords includes the brawler skills needed to get to swordsman some by that same line of though yes it is 89sp for master lightsaber but add in the criteria needed to get padawan(24sp worth of fs skills) and the total xp needed to obtain master lightsabers is 113sp which by my calculations is 7 sp more that it take to get master swords.
but let us go a bit further in our comparrison MLS takes 8.82 million jedi xp which is roughly one fifth of the normally xp earned by a normall profession(Swords) so in actuality is is equivilant to 44.1 million xp that swordsman would have to earn if they wanted to be equivilant to jedi but lets go a bit further our precurser requirements FS XP for FS boxes 6 lines of FS @ a combined total of 7.35 million fs xp needed before you can even think about going MLS. Now lets add in the time element of 18 weeks if you have to do the entire village and see six phases.
So MLS= 8.82 mil jedi XP\
7.35 mil FS XP
and 113 skill points and consuming no less than 18 weeks to achieve(and that's if you become padawan and can grind quickly enough to get MLS in the same week(not likely))
Swordsman= 3.89 mil 2handed xp
415k combat XP
106 skillpoints and about a day to master(if that, I did it in about 3 hours on Dant in groups)
So i guess what i'm saying is your so right...MLS shouldn't be anywhere near as strong as a swordsman with all the time and effort put into getting swordsman. /sarcasm off
OH, i almost forgot the realists point of view. Don't ya think that a weapon made of focussed energy should outdamage a big hammer? Just thought i'd throw that in there with all the other nuggets i just threw at ya.
/flame on (I love saying that..makes me feel like the fire guy from fantasic 4)
ok instead of using amount of skill points lets use percentage then, jedi we'll say have 226 available skill points, normals have 250
mls = 39% of your available skill pts
mswords = 42% of your available skill pts
now lets take this a bit further and lets say i wanted to attempt to recreate a jedi-like toon without any fs skills
mswords + cover line of rifles = 160 of 250 available skill points, so 64% of my skill points are used up
mls + cloak = 117 of 226 available skill points, so 51% of my skill points are used up
it shouldn't be that difficult to see how unbalancing it is to give jedi access to so many skills at such low skill point investment
edit- alrght, just noticed this little gem here in bold, i like how you claim 18 weeks for mls and 3 days for mswords, that isn't biased at all lol. i've said this in previous threads, we all know that each fs quest can be completed in about an hour, so 6 hours for all 6 quests, then i was quite generous in giving you 5 days to fill those 6 trees, then i'd say about 3-5 days after that to get master lightsaber. so if my math is right that would be 8-10 days, 6 hours, for master lightsaber, the days you spent waiting for the phase to change don't exactly count as time it takes to grind a prof......
Message Edited by aekeem on 07-14-2005 01:43 PM
It absolutely counts. Two scenarios:
"I wanna play a character with Swordsman". About a week later, you've got a master swordsman. You get what you want in a week.
"I wanna play a character with Master Lightsaber". About 18 weeks later, you've got a master lightsaber. You get what you want 18 weeks later.
18 weeks > 1 week.
Substantial difference.
aekeem wrote:
Leatherneck_of_Alderaan wrote:
aekeem wrote:
ok instead of using amount of skill points lets use percentage then, jedi we'll say have 226 available skill points, normals have 250
mls = 39% of your available skill pts
mswords = 42% of your available skill pts
now lets take this a bit further and lets say i wanted to attempt to recreate a jedi-like toon without any fs skills
mswords + cover line of rifles = 160 of 250 available skill points, so 64% of my skill points are used up
mls + cloak = 117 of 226 available skill points, so 51% of my skill points are used up
it shouldn't be that difficult to see how unbalancing it is to give jedi access to so many skills at such low skill point investment
edit- alrght, just noticed this little gem here in bold, i like how you claim 18 weeks for mls and 3 days for mswords, that isn't biased at all lol. i've said this in previous threads, we all know that each fs quest can be completed in about an hour, so 6 hours for all 6 quests, then i was quite generous in giving you 5 days to fill those 6 trees, then i'd say about 3-5 days after that to get master lightsaber. so if my math is right that would be 8-10 days, 6 hours, for master lightsaber, the days you spent waiting for the phase to change don't exactly count as time it takes to grind a prof......
Message Edited by aekeem on 07-14-2005 01:43 PM
It absolutely counts. Two scenarios:
"I wanna play a character with Swordsman". About a week later, you've got a master swordsman. You get what you want in a week.
"I wanna play a character with Master Lightsaber". About 18 weeks later, you've got a master lightsaber. You get what you want 18 weeks later.
18 weeks > 1 week.
Substantial difference.
i disagree, they could use that time to: learn the mechanics of the game, practice pvping as normal professions, acquire pearls/crystals, look for aas and cas, any number of things, most just play a different game, i don't see why someone who invests 1 hour every couple of weeks into the game should be much better than a person who constantly plays, learning their profession,learning their opponents professions, learning what works/what doesn't, etc. there's no reason that playing an hour a month for a couple months should entitle someone to an alpha class
Yes, you COULD do those things, and still not play the character you want to be playing.
Meanwhile the guy who wanted to play a swordsman has been playing the profession he wants to for the last 17 weeks.