Bounty Hunter Archive
Thread: BH Vs Jedi : risk vs reward. A balanced discussion
OPENING :
First let me start by stating my credientails and asking for your understanding. I have been playing this game since closed beta, bought the game day 1. I've played many different professions and I've seen alot of changes to the game. My current two characters are very fotm as it goes, with one being a Jedi and the other being a Bounty Hunter. My Jedi mastered BH a long time ago, when vehicals wherent even in game, and player bountys where not in. I am not trying to be biased in my post to one side or another, simply trying to make a suggestion based on an idea, and open a discussion about that idea. I ask for your understanding, either Jedi or Bounty hunter, in this being an IDEA, and while it may do no good, I ask you hold your flames. Disagreement with me is one thing, I do ask we keep the thread a decent read.
THE CONCEPT :
The other night I was reading the forums and I relized alot of the hate between Bounty Hunters and Jedi will never go away. The reason is becuase a balanced system isint in place anymore. Bounty Hunters feel that Jedi are thier content as given by the devs, to be able to keep population and Jedi advancement in check. While MOST jedi understand they will be hunted by becoming a Jedi, the simple fact is as time has gone by, the Jedi skill set has become much less powerfull then it once was. I see Jedi as starting to get upset becuase they feel the risk is not greater then the reward anymore.
The problem is both sides present themselves badlly in either case. Jedi complain about BH's being stronger in many cases then they feel BH's should be, and BH's complain Jedi are strong enough and need to stop crying. Its a cycle thats getting worse and worse, with anger and nerf calling comming from every side.
Now before I begin I would like to ask a question. No one has to answer if they dont want to, and while some will answer and tell me Im wrong, I belive I am right.
Bounty Hunters : How many times have you fought a Jedi ( In this case lets say full template, but any template works ) and had a very close fight? Regardless of who won or lost, you OR the Jedi, how many close fights have you had? As either my Jedi or my Bounty Hunter, I know personally I have had alot of them. Many ending in eithers favour, but the thought stems from this.
Bounty Hunters are getting more powerfull as times go on. Im all for this. Many feel they work hard and deserve thier strength. Many pick a certain template just to fight Jedi. Im not arguing against your right to use any tactics you can to win.
Jedi are getting weaker as time goes on. No one can argue this. While still a strong profession to be by game standerds, they are not the powerhouses of PvP they once where.
The problem arises based on risk vs reward. The way the current system is, Jedi have all the risk, while Bounty Hunters have all the reward. Jedi understand this is what they are getting into when they unlock and begin to become a Jedi, but many begin to think that the reward is not as great as the risk as time goes on. There is no balance in terms of the Jedi / BH relationship. This is what this is all about . . .
So I sat and thought about what could be done to make things alittle more even for both sides. While many have suggested that taking away the Jedi XP debt is a way to solve this issue, I do not agree. We all know there are many jedi in the game now, the XP loss, while it can be very fustrating at times, is a way ( however nominal ) to keep Jedi in check and try and curb the advancment of thier profession. Besides, to be honest, even if you remove the XP loss on death, you still have an imbalance in the system. Jedi would have no risk and no reward, while Bounty hunters would have no risk, and all the reward. Needless to say, it begins to make Jedi bitter that while they have all the risk, thier profession gets weaker and weaker, while no risk goes to Bounty Hunters and they still get the reward.
I belive that XP loss IS the Jedi risk. Jedi risk XP loss, and the reward is keeping it, in contrast though, Bounty hunters risk nothing, and thier reward is a large sum of credits. This is the imbalance.
So I began to think, what would be a fair and balanced risk to the Bounty hunter? Many ideas went through my head. The one some have suggested is Bounty Hunters lossing skills or XP when they die. I dont think this would work. First of all actual SKILL loss is contridicting to the game, taking away something that one spent thier time and energy on, and we saw the removal of Jedi skill loss for this reason. Besides, lets face it BH's, the loss of one skill ( say master box ) is kinda moot when its easlly countered by an hour of grinding. Taking away Bounty hunter XP is pointless, as they are already finished with thier templates most times as not, and it wouldnt effect them at all.
THE IDEA :
Many Jedi have asked for a Bounty Hunter to be put on the terms when they lose to a Jedi. While a good suggestion, it lacked anything else concrete. Just throwing them on the terms wouldnt effect any risk at all, as they would simply die to another Bounty Hunter who would get paid, while lossing nothing. The basic concept is easily exploitable. So lets expand on it :
Step 1 : Jedi vs Bounty hunter fight. = The jedi and Bounty hunter fight.The Jedi risks XP loss, the Bounty Hunter risks going on the terms. If the Jedi wins, his reward is a failed mission for the Bounty hunter resultuing in the bounty hunter going himself on the terms. The Bounty hunter risks going on the terms themselves, if he wins his reward is a large sum of credits.
Step 2 : Bounty Hunter vs Bounty Hunter = The bounty hunter above (bh1) lost his fight. He is now on the terminals himself for lets say half the original payout of the Jedi. (lets say 100k). BH2 goes after him and they fight. If BH1 wins, he is removed from the terms, this is now his reward. if BH2 wins, BH2 gets the mission reward (100k ) , and BH1 moves on to Step 2a.
Step 2a : Bounty Hunter risk = My first idea was to have the sum paid to BH2 taken directlly from bank or cash balance of BH1 , but I relized this was as unfair as skill loss, taking something someone had already spent a large portion of time and energy to aquire. This lead to my 2nd idea. DEBT. In the case of BH1 lossing to BH2, BH1 would incure debt TO THE BOUNTY HUNTERS GUILD ONLY. The idea is that the bounty hunters guild would want the BH to pay off thier own bounty. So if BH1 dies, he would need to do a undetermined amount of bounty's , either Jedi or NPC, untill the amount his bounty was worth was paid off ( in this case 100k ).
Step 3 : Further Debt = Lets face it, many Bounty Hunters are in it for reason other then cash payout. So to them the debt wouldnt effect them as heavily as others. To this end I suggest at a preset amount of debt ( lets say 500k credits for a base idea ), the Bounty hunters guild stops offering high paying missions to the BH untill the debt is paid off. Be honest, would you continue to employ a private contractor if they failed all the time at thier job? No, you would look elsewhere ( at least I know I would lol ). Bounty Hunters would still have access to all the non PvP content in an effort for them to " grind " off thier debt to the Bounty Hunters guild , much in the same way jedi must grind off the XP debt they suffer for a loss.
FURTHER SUGGESTIONS AND CONCLUSION :
Bounty Hunters would have the ability to " work off " thier debt while on the terms, much as Jedi can loss visability. If they can manage to work off the debt they have at any given time , either via Jedi or NPC missions, before another bounty hunter comes for them, they will be removed from the terms.
Remove the " Jedi " Tag from Bounty hunter mission terminals. In place put " Player issued Bounty " or some such ( this will also work well if and when someday they put Smuggler Bounty's in as well ). Bounty Hunters shouldnt have a choice of if they go after Jedi or Bounty hunters, to them it should just be a job. Keep faction tabs, as I do understand some not wanting to hunt thier own faction.
By all means PLEASE feel free to offer your own suggesstions / ideas, and dont be afraid to be contrary. I only ask once again you do it in a civiliazed manner.
A copy of this post will be in both the Bounty Hunter and Jedi Profession specific forums. Feel free to comment in either one.
OPENING :
First let me start by stating my credientails and asking for your understanding. I have been playing this game since closed beta, bought the game day 1. I've played many different professions and I've seen alot of changes to the game. My current two characters are very fotm as it goes, with one being a Jedi and the other being a Bounty Hunter. My Jedi mastered BH a long time ago, when vehicals wherent even in game, and player bountys where not in. I am not trying to be biased in my post to one side or another, simply trying to make a suggestion based on an idea, and open a discussion about that idea. I ask for your understanding, either Jedi or Bounty hunter, in this being an IDEA, and while it may do no good, I ask you hold your flames. Disagreement with me is one thing, I do ask we keep the thread a decent read.
THE CONCEPT :
The other night I was reading the forums and I relized alot of the hate between Bounty Hunters and Jedi will never go away. The reason is becuase a balanced system isint in place anymore. Bounty Hunters feel that Jedi are thier content as given by the devs, to be able to keep population and Jedi advancement in check. While MOST jedi understand they will be hunted by becoming a Jedi, the simple fact is as time has gone by, the Jedi skill set has become much less powerfull then it once was. I see Jedi as starting to get upset becuase they feel the risk is not greater then the reward anymore.
The problem is both sides present themselves badlly in either case. Jedi complain about BH's being stronger in many cases then they feel BH's should be, and BH's complain Jedi are strong enough and need to stop crying. Its a cycle thats getting worse and worse, with anger and nerf calling comming from every side.
Now before I begin I would like to ask a question. No one has to answer if they dont want to, and while some will answer and tell me Im wrong, I belive I am right.
Bounty Hunters : How many times have you fought a Jedi ( In this case lets say full template, but any template works ) and had a very close fight? Regardless of who won or lost, you OR the Jedi, how many close fights have you had? As either my Jedi or my Bounty Hunter, I know personally I have had alot of them. Many ending in eithers favour, but the thought stems from this.
Bounty Hunters are getting more powerfull as times go on. Im all for this. Many feel they work hard and deserve thier strength. Many pick a certain template just to fight Jedi. Im not arguing against your right to use any tactics you can to win.
Jedi are getting weaker as time goes on. No one can argue this. While still a strong profession to be by game standerds, they are not the powerhouses of PvP they once where.
The problem arises based on risk vs reward. The way the current system is, Jedi have all the risk, while Bounty Hunters have all the reward. Jedi understand this is what they are getting into when they unlock and begin to become a Jedi, but many begin to think that the reward is not as great as the risk as time goes on. There is no balance in terms of the Jedi / BH relationship. This is what this is all about . . .
So I sat and thought about what could be done to make things alittle more even for both sides. While many have suggested that taking away the Jedi XP debt is a way to solve this issue, I do not agree. We all know there are many jedi in the game now, the XP loss, while it can be very fustrating at times, is a way ( however nominal ) to keep Jedi in check and try and curb the advancment of thier profession. Besides, to be honest, even if you remove the XP loss on death, you still have an imbalance in the system. Jedi would have no risk and no reward, while Bounty hunters would have no risk, and all the reward. Needless to say, it begins to make Jedi bitter that while they have all the risk, thier profession gets weaker and weaker, while no risk goes to Bounty Hunters and they still get the reward.
I belive that XP loss IS the Jedi risk. Jedi risk XP loss, and the reward is keeping it, in contrast though, Bounty hunters risk nothing, and thier reward is a large sum of credits. This is the imbalance.
So I began to think, what would be a fair and balanced risk to the Bounty hunter? Many ideas went through my head. The one some have suggested is Bounty Hunters lossing skills or XP when they die. I dont think this would work. First of all actual SKILL loss is contridicting to the game, taking away something that one spent thier time and energy on, and we saw the removal of Jedi skill loss for this reason. Besides, lets face it BH's, the loss of one skill ( say master box ) is kinda moot when its easlly countered by an hour of grinding. Taking away Bounty hunter XP is pointless, as they are already finished with thier templates most times as not, and it wouldnt effect them at all.
THE IDEA :
Many Jedi have asked for a Bounty Hunter to be put on the terms when they lose to a Jedi. While a good suggestion, it lacked anything else concrete. Just throwing them on the terms wouldnt effect any risk at all, as they would simply die to another Bounty Hunter who would get paid, while lossing nothing. The basic concept is easily exploitable. So lets expand on it :
Step 1 : Jedi vs Bounty hunter fight. = The jedi and Bounty hunter fight.The Jedi risks XP loss, the Bounty Hunter risks going on the terms. If the Jedi wins, his reward is a failed mission for the Bounty hunter resultuing in the bounty hunter going himself on the terms. The Bounty hunter risks going on the terms themselves, if he wins his reward is a large sum of credits.
Step 2 : Bounty Hunter vs Bounty Hunter = The bounty hunter above (bh1) lost his fight. He is now on the terminals himself for lets say half the original payout of the Jedi. (lets say 100k). BH2 goes after him and they fight. If BH1 wins, he is removed from the terms, this is now his reward. if BH2 wins, BH2 gets the mission reward (100k ) , and BH1 moves on to Step 2a.
Step 2a : Bounty Hunter risk = My first idea was to have the sum paid to BH2 taken directlly from bank or cash balance of BH1 , but I relized this was as unfair as skill loss, taking something someone had already spent a large portion of time and energy to aquire. This lead to my 2nd idea. DEBT. In the case of BH1 lossing to BH2, BH1 would incure debt TO THE BOUNTY HUNTERS GUILD ONLY. The idea is that the bounty hunters guild would want the BH to pay off thier own bounty. So if BH1 dies, he would need to do a undetermined amount of bounty's , either Jedi or NPC, untill the amount his bounty was worth was paid off ( in this case 100k ).
Step 3 : Further Debt = Lets face it, many Bounty Hunters are in it for reason other then cash payout. So to them the debt wouldnt effect them as heavily as others. To this end I suggest at a preset amount of debt ( lets say 500k credits for a base idea ), the Bounty hunters guild stops offering high paying missions to the BH untill the debt is paid off. Be honest, would you continue to employ a private contractor if they failed all the time at thier job? No, you would look elsewhere ( at least I know I would lol ). Bounty Hunters would still have access to all the non PvP content in an effort for them to " grind " off thier debt to the Bounty Hunters guild , much in the same way jedi must grind off the XP debt they suffer for a loss.
FURTHER SUGGESTIONS AND CONCLUSION :
Bounty Hunters would have the ability to " work off " thier debt while on the terms, much as Jedi can loss visability. If they can manage to work off the debt they have at any given time , either via Jedi or NPC missions, before another bounty hunter comes for them, they will be removed from the terms.
Remove the " Jedi " Tag from Bounty hunter mission terminals. In place put " Player issued Bounty " or some such ( this will also work well if and when someday they put Smuggler Bounty's in as well ). Bounty Hunters shouldnt have a choice of if they go after Jedi or Bounty hunters, to them it should just be a job. Keep faction tabs, as I do understand some not wanting to hunt thier own faction.
By all means PLEASE feel free to offer your own suggesstions / ideas, and dont be afraid to be contrary. I only ask once again you do it in a civiliazed manner.
A copy of this post will be in both the Bounty Hunter and Jedi Profession specific forums. Feel free to comment in either one.
DarkImitation wrote:
While MOST jedi understand they will be hunted by becoming a Jedi, the simple fact is as time has gone by, the Jedi skill set has become much less powerfull then it once was. I see Jedi as starting to get upset becuase they feel the risk is not greater then the reward anymore.
that's the life of online games. Go check the boards of every MMORPG game from WOW, Everquest, DAOC to even UO. Thereis always beetching.PVE or PVPpeople will always complain.
The problem is both sides present themselves badlly in either case. Jedi complain about BH's being stronger in many cases then they feel BH's should be, and BH's complain Jedi are strong enough and need to stop crying. Its a cycle thats getting worse and worse, with anger and nerf calling comming from every side.
It's more then BH, go check the GCW boards as well. Jedi are the most hated profession... period. Why do youthink that is? Could it be Jedi stand for all things wrong in an online game? One Alpha profession, most self sufficient class in a game that relies on other players. When I think of exploits, Jedi come to mind. When I think of Ebay, Jedi come to mind. When i think of 12 year olds and social losers in real life, jedi come to mind.
As far as the rest of your rants.. I am all for the original developers ideas....
"We'll we're really keeping Jedi, the Jedi System, under wraps right now because we want Jedi to be rare and mysterious in the game. We want it to feel like it does in the movies where Jedi are kind of a rare breed. We will say that really the core of it is becoming Force Sensitive. Once you become Force Sensitive your progression through the Jedi ranks is pretty straight forward and follows a lot of the rules we've established already for some of our other skill systems. But the Force Sensitivity aspect is the thing that we're not really talking about. We do have a system in place, it takes into account a wide range of variables, it's different for every player, and no player is excluded from it, so you can't make a wrong choice when you're making up your character that will keep you from becoming a Jedi. That's not the way it works. Everybody has an equal opportunity."
Haden, XGR Interview
Your Jedi character lives in a world of constant danger, and when a Jedi dies, he's permanently dead (your other characters will respawn at a cloning facility). Jedi are also targets for NPCs and potentially other players. This will make surviving as a Jedi long enough to advance to Jedi Knight or Jedi Master status very difficult."
Haden, IGN Interview
"They will be very hard to become, and very very very rare. And we will continue to adjust the system to keep it that way. (I know, here I go tantalizing ya withuot any concrete details again... )"
Raph, Dec 2000
"Is the game going to exercise a degree of control over whether you become a Jedi? Absolutely. After all, it also exercises a degree of control over whether you become anything else in the game. Will those who wish to become Jedi be able to work towards it? Yes. Will they for sure make it? No, it is not guaranteed. But the opportunity is always there should they decide to travel that rough road. We intend to keep Jedi rare, and we will tweak the system on an ongoing basis to ensure that they stay that way (again, something we have stated before). Yes, it is our *opinion* that Jedi will be very very very rare, but we're also planning on working until they ARE because otherwise we would not be faithful to Star Wars. (And yes, we believe we can make it fun to boot). BTW, being a Jedi or Force sensitive in the time period the game is set in ain't no picnic."
Raph, April 2001
Message Edited by HeadRoll on 09-21-2005 01:55 PM
Message Edited by HeadRoll on 09-21-2005 01:56 PM
Message Edited by HeadRoll on 09-21-2005 02:01 PM
I for one, think it was very thought out and a great idea. Would make a bh think at least a extra moment before attacking a mark. Another suggestion that might be worth revisiting is if you attack a jedi the rest of the group doesnt have to stand there and watch!!
Rosobado Ohta Kettemoor
Just get rid of player bounties entirely. they do not control the Jedi population, they just waste the lives of grinding jedi forcing them to re-earn their JXP. Grinding is a waste of life IMO, it should be at most 9% of the game not 99% which is what it seems to be ATM. All the Jedi that do give up due to repeated BH deaths and XP dept just get fed up and cancel their accounts, who wants to drive players out of the game?
I really cannot understand the mentallity of someone that takes a mission on a grinding Jedi knowing that he's going to undo hours of labourious grinding, forcing that person to have to undergo the monotony of re-grinding. re-grinding!!, grinding was tedious enough but re-grinding???
The system is toally flawed. Grinding padawans are too weak to defend themselves and full-temps are too strong, Just takeplayer missionsout of the game and replace it with some better content and everyone can all stop hating each other.
That's my two cents anyway.
_Apache wrote:
The thing with BH vs Jedi, is that its the new GCW. The current GCW is for the most part dead, and isnt really working as intended. One of the main reasons is the ever growing number of Jedi. For those people like myself, and others, its not very fun entering a battle when the majority of players are Jedi. The non-Jedi usually get wiped out fast.
So what's a non-Jedi that wants to PvP to do? Besides hang around Starports and have Duels? Well, since we're going to be fighting Jedi anyway, the obvious solution would be to go BH. If we're going to be forced to face Jedi in one way or another, might as well face them on our terms. And maybe even make a few creds, and some boasting rights along the way.
Now, as far as the Risk vs Reward, many Jedi feel that they have too much to lose, referring to XP loss. They feel that BH's have nothing to lose, and if a Jedi dies at the hands of a BH, then that Jedi has to grind out all that xp that the Jedi lost. Wich is true. However once a Jedi finally becomes Full Temp, that Jedi will always stay Full Temp. No amount of being killed by a BH can ever take that away. Unless a Jedi is extremely careless about gaining Vis, and is constantly getting killed by BH's, the Jedi will eventually make Full Temp. And be basicly finished.
BH's on the other hand are in a Constant state of grinding. It takes alot of money to afford all that equipment that would be capable of facing Jedi. Everything from the best possible armors, to weapons, to foods, and droids. Unless the BH has access to alot of ADK's, the BH will be replacing all his equipment on a regular basis. Wich isnt cheap. Wich puts the BH in a continuous cash grind no matter how many Jedi the BH kills, or how long he has been a BH, or any other reason related to the BH's Skills, profession, or Template.
So in my opinion, the Risk vs Reward is already balanced. Sure the BH causes XP loss to Jedi. But you can bet that the BH is going to be spending that same amount of Creds on equipment sooner or later.
I like your idea DarkImitation, very well thought out and put together. I dont think it will get around the BH-Jedi hate issue though, as I see this as a more personal issue, meaning the situation now pits person against person, and relies on each individual to accept victory or loss on his/her own terms. And while there are people who handle both of these in a mature manner, there will always be those who do not.
Personally I would like to alter your idea just a little and instill NPC marks instead of player bountys. In other words, as a MBH we would still have the ability to draw an NPC Jedi mark, much harder than the current Boss marks, and with the NPCs soon able to use their own Special attacks and Force powers, these may prove to be as interesting and challenging as player controlled Jedi. And, of course, I would introduce the ranking system into it as well, so if a MBH has killed and collected on many NPC Jedi, the next Jedi mark will be incrementally tougher. And I would keep your idea of Debt for BH mission failures as well, so as to have a risk even in the NPC bounty missions.
For Jedi, I would like to see a similar system put in place. Depending on the number of skill points in your template, if you gain visibility, you have the chance to draw a NPC bounty hunter. Similar to the spawn of the Sith for getting into the FS village. Did any of us see them coming the first time? And of course as you progress up the Jedi skill trees, you would spawn level appropriate NPC BHs or maybe several BHs, again similar to the Sith attacks. The twist I would make as well is that once a full template, you can draw a Boss BH, or in other words an opposite faction Jedi that has come specifically for you. Afterall didn't the Jedi fear being hunted by other Jedi more than by the BHs. Failure to kill the BH that comes for you would result in a penalty of some sort, not sure if exp loss is the answer here or not. But obviously some sort of risk needs to be involved. Maybe like your suggestion for the BH, some sort of debt that can be repayed through missions or something.
And of course, in victory for all would come the opportunity for some loot from the NPC you kill.
Just my 2 cents
Pretty much my thoughts on this. A good set of armour ,a weapon that does high damage with a low sac,and foods cost lots of money.After about two fights with a jedi win or lose that armour is done. The longer the fight the more money this costs me. Jedi have inate armour and can craft their own weapon. The only way they lose their armour is when they run out of force.Plus our weapons get reduced to pee shooters that rarely hit , which is why I gave up the jedi hunt a long time ago and started to grind my own. When I get that extra character slot and grind out another bounty hunter I still won't hunt other players unless smugglers get put on the terminals.
_Apache wrote:
The thing with BH vs Jedi, is that its the new GCW. The current GCW is for the most part dead, and isnt really working as intended. One of the main reasons is the ever growing number of Jedi. For those people like myself, and others, its not very fun entering a battle when the majority of players are Jedi. The non-Jedi usually get wiped out fast.
So what's a non-Jedi that wants to PvP to do? Besides hang around Starports and have Duels? Well, since we're going to be fighting Jedi anyway, the obvious solution would be to go BH. If we're going to be forced to face Jedi in one way or another, might as well face them on our terms. And maybe even make a few creds, and some boasting rights along the way.
Now, as far as the Risk vs Reward, many Jedi feel that they have too much to lose, referring to XP loss. They feel that BH's have nothing to lose, and if a Jedi dies at the hands of a BH, then that Jedi has to grind out all that xp that the Jedi lost. Wich is true. However once a Jedi finally becomes Full Temp, that Jedi will always stay Full Temp. No amount of being killed by a BH can ever take that away. Unless a Jedi is extremely careless about gaining Vis, and is constantly getting killed by BH's, the Jedi will eventually make Full Temp. And be basicly finished.
BH's on the other hand are in a Constant state of grinding. It takes alot of money to afford all that equipment that would be capable of facing Jedi. Everything from the best possible armors, to weapons, to foods, and droids. Unless the BH has access to alot of ADK's, the BH will be replacing all his equipment on a regular basis. Wich isnt cheap. Wich puts the BH in a continuous cash grind no matter how many Jedi the BH kills, or how long he has been a BH, or any other reason related to the BH's Skills, profession, or Template.
So in my opinion, the Risk vs Reward is already balanced. Sure the BH causes XP loss to Jedi. But you can bet that the BH is going to be spending that same amount of Creds on equipment sooner or later.
If they implement the FRS don't even bother hunting them unless it's a two to one fight.They're hard enough and every fight takes about 20 to sometimes 60 minutes. And the only reason this is happening is because the pearl drops are lower.
wazooka wrote:
full temp jedi go for 225k on terms, however that is a too small amount imo, maybe when/if they fix the FRS, the amounts will rise for knights etc...