CUEmu - Thread Posts

Tal-N

Wed Mar 03, 2004 3:52 pm

Ok, this was sparked off by that other topic about someones 5k/3k/2k dewback not actually doing all that well against their probots on live. At first it seems like the current probots are actually wildly overpowered but the more you look at it you come to realise that the current ones do have a slight bonus but not huge. The new probots that are coming in however are wildly overpowered for their CL10 rating as the math and hard evidence shows they'll be more like a CL20 pet.

Anyway, getting back to the topic at hand. We have a problem, not with overpowered pets but with this cloning system actually not allowing proper migrations of stats. I've been saying for a long long time that 6k HAM animals with 30-40 damage are overpowered tanks, I'm about to kick myself in the teeth for not looking at this closer but the fact is they're UNDERPOWERED.

As you all know two CL10 mobs/pets should be an even match for one another more or less, if you pit them against each other the one with better kinetic protection and better melee focussed specials will win. However in the overall scheme of things they should work out balanced based on what types of enemies they fight. The trouble as I see is that we're not seeing a fair trade off as we migrate damage and general DPS towards the HAM. If the CL rating was staying the same then it would mean (specials set aside) that the two CL10 mobs would still end up nearly at a draw. The 'power' mob would be causing alot of damage but not be able to take much, the 'protection' mob would be able to take alot of damage but not be dealing much. It's a very simple concept really and the evidence is when you duel a probot against a pet.

Probots are ideal for establishing a baseline. They use and cannot be effected by any special attacks other than posture changes. They are evenly balanced between power and protection too in my opinion. Yet as you will find with the current crop of non-ch pets they will lose pretty much every time. Now don't assume that I'm saying all are underpowered, by my estimates due to the limitations on resistances a non-chpet should be allowed around 15000 total HAM points and a DPS of around 50. If you use the currentProbot as an opponent you'll see what I mean.

Lets assume for the moment that someone makes a clone with 5k/5k/5k and a DPS of 35. Thrown against a current probot the result would be roughly as follows:

Probot kills clone ina minimum of156 seconds.

Clone kills probot in a minimum of 142 seconds.

Now of course in terms of raw numbers you'd think that the clone would only just lose this however remember two things, clones can have special attacks such as knockdown and they can counter attacks giving them additional hits. So this is actually very fair. Now from the guide I produced and seems to hold true for valid pets after the last shift you'd get around 100 points of extra HAM for every 10 points of damage you sacrified. However it also drops the speed to around 2.5 as you know meaning that you're getting only another 1100 points of HAM for dropping your DPS to 16. Under that situation the animal is actually weaker.

So what would be a valid trade off, well remember of course that a fair trade of damage for HAM should lead to a longer fight but still one with a 50/50 chance of going either way against a current probot. Now a DPS of 35 is roughly 70-80 damage every 2.25 seconds. This would be what I'd call a middle-ground damage since it also means decent HAM as well. Because of how bio-engineering works it's fair to say we have 15,000 points of HAM to play around with this example. Dumping as much of the mind pool and action pool into the health will lead to a nice PvE pet however in PvP where pools can be targetting they are becoming weaker as people will target the lowest pool. That is called balance, focus on PvE or PvP.

For thisissue though I'm talking about creating a fair trade between damage and total HAM though since we should be allowed to create well rounded pets which aren't being weakened by the trade off.

Lets try something slow at first, an increase of 1500 total HAM points in exchange for damage, a total of 5.5k/5.5k/5.5k. That means against the probot it would take a minimum of 157 seconds to kill the clone. That means the clone needs to also take around about the same time to kill the probot. Working that out the DPS needs to be roughly33.5 as 5466/33.5 = 163 seconds. You might then say for every 1.5 reduction in the DPS we should gain around 1500 additional points to the HAM. Lets follow this through and see....

DPS lowered to 10 from 35. Loss of 15 dps =11250 extra HAM. Split that between all three pools for a total of8750 per pool. (yes I know this sounds incredible but hang on and watch this)

Probot takes250 seconds to kill clone.

Clone takes 546 seconds to kill probot.

Clearly here you aren't seeing a fair trade of though, the droid would still be at roughly 50% for any single pool when the clone is defeated. Even with the counter attack capabilities that doesn't justify such a trade off from damage for HAM. The number needs to be raised. So lets try 1 dps = 2500.

DPS lowered to 10 from 35, loss of 15dps = 37500. split 3 ways is 17500 per pool. (looking like a CL50 mobs now you'd think.. look again)

Probot takes 500 seconds to kill clone.

Clone takes 546 seconds to kill probot.

This now sounds a bit better, the probot has almost a whole minutes worth of additional hits against the clone to compensate for animals having the counterattack. So what you now have is two evenly matched CL10 pets, both crafted, who stand a good 50/50 chance of defeating one another. This pet naturally has no resistances as I'm talking about raw HAM here compared with the probots effective HAM of 5466 per pool.

Now this obviously assumes that both the clone and the probot have the same To Hit chance so they'll miss and hit as much as one another, also since specials don't work on the droid you just have raw number crunching which is what we want as that is the rawest and most balanced way to determine if two CL10 pets are evenly matched in all ways. The probot because of its balanced HAM and all around resists is effective for PvP since it has no weaknesses to target, the pet here is also good for PvP and PvE as it's HAM is balanced. So yes, both are CL10 and both are balanced.

Lets now put this into reverse, pumping as much HAM to boost the damage as possible. This isn't a simple case of swapping 2500 for an increase of 1 DPS either. Running the math for that you'll see that changing 5k/5k/5k and DPS 35 into 2.5/2.5/2.5 and DPS36 leads to some messy results against the probot.

Probot takes 71 seconds to kill clone

Clone takes 151 seconds to kill Probot.

So yeah, it's not that simple. 2500 of HAM should transfer into roughly +30DPS. So when you have 2.5/2.5/2.5 you'd now find the DPS is 65. Now it works properly as you'll see. (Another way to say it is for every 83 points of HAM you gain 1dps.)

Probot takes 71 seconds to kill clone.

Clone takes 84 seconds to kill probot.

How much is 65dps in terms of damage and speed? Well it can be many things but lets assume you have the2 second limit for animals, the damage is actually 130. Not that extreme when you look at it eh? Who would think by dropping that to 30-40 damageevery 4.0 seconds you'd gain over 35k of extra HAM to spend and STILL find that a CL15 mob could wipe the floor with your pet.

But anyway, we're being screwed for damage in exchange for HAM under the current system, it's actually creatingfalse CL readings.

Tal-N Chratk
Ahazi Master Bioengineer / Hunt Master / Rifleman
______________________
Tal'N Chratk
Shadowfire Bounterhunter / Commando

ArthurDentOnBria

Wed Mar 03, 2004 4:07 pm

#2

Tal-N,

I think the biggest problem with this argument is that I don't believe probots are CL 10, they are still like CL 15-CL 20 are they not? That's why I pretty much dismissed that whole argument in the other thread, because we're comparing apples to oranges, and even at the higher CL 19 out of 20 people would still pick the CL 10 pet to have in battle, simply because of the other advantages.

Message Edited by ArthurDentOnBria on 03-03-2004 03:09 PM

ArthurDent - former Bio Engineer, Tailor, and Droid Engineer
Account cancelled 7/8/05 due to game breaking bugs in these professions that have been neglected for FAR too long. Last day July 27 2005
custom tailoring and droid orders welcome. "making Evil products since July 2003"
Achiever: 80%, Explorer: 60%, Socializer: 46%, Killa 13%

Tal-N

Wed Mar 03, 2004 4:20 pm

#3

Current probots can fight at a CL15 level, just like our CL10 pets have stats of wild CL15 when you balance the pools and damage out. I will agree that animals have other advantages (ie. poisons and intimidation specials ect...) The fact about the probots fighting at that level not only works from the math but also in practice. When I sent the probot after a CL14 peko peko it won with a decent amount of damage left. When I sent it against a CL17 it lost but made a significant dent in the opponent. So fact is, it's somewhere between CL14 and CL17. Yet as you will find, send one of our non-ch'tank' animals with minimum damage and maxium HAM and it'll lose because we actually made the animal weaker without lowering it's CL rating. That is the flaw I'm talking about.

That is afterall what the CL rating system is about. If you take specials out (since we know they don't appear to add to the CL anyway) and throw two CL50 kinetic animals at one another they'll practically kill each other. If you take one CL50 animal with nice kinetic resists and throw it against two CL25 animals also with nice kinetics you'd find an even fight there as well. That is CL, it determines balance. Obviously resistances and DPS come into the equasion far higher up and as know that a mob with apoison or intimidationis more powerful than another of the same CL which doesn't have those, but in the end CL = power.

Tal-N Chratk
Ahazi Master Bioengineer / Hunt Master / Rifleman
______________________
Tal'N Chratk
Shadowfire Bounterhunter / Commando

ArthurDentOnBria

Wed Mar 03, 2004 4:39 pm

#4

Tal,

I'm not saying that a probot "fights like CL 15", I'm saying from memory, itis in fact CL 15 (I could be wrong, this is from memory, been a long time since I've actually used my probots since they're pretty much useless). The assumption that you and Nancy seem to be making is that it somehow "should" be CL 10, and therefore "should" be an even match for a CL 10 animal. I just don't think that this is the case.

I have a ranger character, I'll check the CL on his probot tonight and see what it says, but when they nerfed non-CH animals down from CL 15 to CL 10 I don't think they bothered to change the probot.

Message Edited by ArthurDentOnBria on 03-03-2004 03:41 PM

ArthurDent - former Bio Engineer, Tailor, and Droid Engineer
Account cancelled 7/8/05 due to game breaking bugs in these professions that have been neglected for FAR too long. Last day July 27 2005
custom tailoring and droid orders welcome. "making Evil products since July 2003"
Achiever: 80%, Explorer: 60%, Socializer: 46%, Killa 13%

Pahbi

Wed Mar 03, 2004 4:48 pm

#5

Tal-n seldom misses a opportunity to call for nerfage.

I'm sure he's already leading the, 'nerf de' charge somewhere else on the forums.

- Pahbi

Tal-N

Wed Mar 03, 2004 5:41 pm

#6

I'm not saying that a probot "fights like CL 15", I'm saying from memory, itis in fact CL 15 (I could be wrong, this is from memory, been a long time since I've actually used my probots since they're pretty much useless). The assumption that you and Nancy seem to be making is that it somehow "should" be CL 10, and therefore "should" be an even match for a CL 10 animal. I just don't think that this is the case.

Errr no, I'm sayingit is equalCL15 and thats how it should be because our CL10 clones have the stats of CL15 wild animals. Thats what I'm saying here, it's a great means of working out a balance for trading off damage for HAM in our clones.

Tal-n seldom misses a opportunity to call for nerfage. I'm sure he's already leading the, 'nerf de' charge somewhere else on the forums.

I swear the average IQ has dropped lower than normal for some people today, I'm asking for an INCREASE for our clones here by proving a point that a pet with no resistances, 35k of HAM and 30-40 damage would still lose to a CL15+ mob when it goes one on one with them.

Tal-N Chratk
Ahazi Master Bioengineer / Hunt Master / Rifleman
______________________
Tal'N Chratk
Shadowfire Bounterhunter / Commando

Gribnitz

Wed Mar 03, 2004 6:04 pm

#7

Tal-N wrote:

I swear the average IQ has dropped lower than normal for some people today,

Yes it has. You are forgetting to add in the inherent advantage of allowing bio-pets to be buffed by doctors, fed master made chef food, and the inherent bonus of CH's buffing thier pets HAM and attack for short periods of time.

Now is a doctors buffs and chef foods being used on pets a bug or on purpose ? Droids don't get either of these, yet you want to swing the nerf bat even before anything goes live because you choose to see an inherent imbalance. Maybe this should be shouted from the tree tops like you chose to do on the DE forum.

Leave DE's alone. We haven't had anything but nerfs since launch and you are just trying to stir up controversy so we stay that way.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gribnitz the Rodian with the glasses
Master Droid Engineer - Master Artisan

Did you know it is physically impossible to lick your own elbow?

Kauri Server shop located at -1155, -4532 only 900 meters South of Bestine

Cocomono

Wed Mar 03, 2004 6:14 pm

#8

I still NEVER see probots being used in combat. NEVER see them being used. They are too slow, unhealable and ranged, bad for a tank that is suppose to take damage. Droids won't be used in combat until they are faster. Comparing the two is a moot point, no one uses a probot anymore.

Kru'gar
You might be a Red-Neck Jedi if......you hear "Luke I'm your Father, and your Uncle too."

Tal-N

Wed Mar 03, 2004 6:31 pm

#9

I still NEVER see probots being used in combat. NEVER see them being used. They are too slow, unhealable and ranged, bad for a tank that is suppose to take damage. Droids won't be used in combat until they are faster. Comparing the two is a moot point, no one uses a probot anymore.

Well if you look at the current TC probots they are faster, stronger and more powerful. Frankly if they become legacy droids I'm gonna make sure I pick one up for myself over there since it would come in handy.

Looks like I've built up another bunch of fans from the DE forum who are gonna follow me around 1 starring things now as well. Maybe you guys should speak to the 2 or 3 from theCH group that is still stalking me from4 months ago and create a 'We H8 Tal-N' website with fanclub membership. I don't try to be controversial, however the fact is that I have my opinion and I don't care if you don't like it.

Tal-N Chratk
Ahazi Master Bioengineer / Hunt Master / Rifleman
______________________
Tal'N Chratk
Shadowfire Bounterhunter / Commando

Pahbi

Wed Mar 03, 2004 7:03 pm

#10

Honestly Tal, you are without a doubt, the most fanatical nerf herder I have ever seen. Ever forumI see you visit, from CH to TK, you do little more then cry that this is to powerful or that is to powerful and needs to be nerfed.

Without a doubt, DE's have been beyond patient in the game, suffering from broken promises, broken schematics and broken droids since day 1 of release.

Frankly, I'm *HAPPY* DEs are getting a boost, and if one of their boosts is particularly good, then *GREAT* for them and if it means I end up making one less non-ch pet then who cares. I'm sick of making non ch pets anyways.

Anything that is non ch or close to non ch in this game is strictly to help n00bies. So what if the DE droid fights like a CL 15 pet or even if it IS a CL 15 droid. Its still little more than a roadbump against CL 50 or higher creatures on the adventure planets, and it certainly won't do squat against the hyper powerful stuff in the geo bunker.

For pete sakes Tal, quit your nerf-herding, everyone is quit sick of nerfs.

- Pahbi

Windsplitter

Wed Mar 03, 2004 7:50 pm

#11

Gribnitz wrote:

Tal-N wrote:

I swear the average IQ has dropped lower than normal for some people today,

Yes it has. You are forgetting to add in the inherent advantage of allowing bio-pets to be buffed by doctors, fed master made chef food, and the inherent bonus of CH's buffing thier pets HAM and attack for short periods of time.

Now is a doctors buffs and chef foods being used on pets a bug or on purpose ? Droids don't get either of these, yet you want to swing the nerf bat even before anything goes live because you choose to see an inherent imbalance. Maybe this should be shouted from the tree tops like you chose to do on the DE forum.

Leave DE's alone. We haven't had anything but nerfs since launch and you are just trying to stir up controversy so we stay that way.

You cant force feed pets when they arent hungy and, there is no evidense that shows that chef food gives creatures the buff aside from healing their wounds. so petsmust nowrely on doctor buffs? when will they call that overpowering and nerf that too? How many CH's do you know buff their pets? No BE is asking for a DE nerf. we just want out own system fixed but not at the expense of getting others nerfed.

How else do you expect people to draw a comparison? Im sure if your combat droids were weaker than a CL10 BE creatin, you guys would be asking why your bots are underpowered too. Not like they are overpowered at all. Players dont even need pets when they are fully buffed and suited in composite

Tenrai Master Ranger | Master Rifleman Chibi's Med Supplies and Chef Suzi's Cafe
BurningFist MCH | TKM | Master Brawler located on Tattooine in Mos Luna
LittlePaw Master Bio Engineer | Ranger at -2300 -4700

Gribnitz

Wed Mar 03, 2004 8:04 pm

#12

Windsplitter wrote:

Gribnitz wrote:

Tal-N wrote:

I swear the average IQ has dropped lower than normal for some people today,

Yes it has. You are forgetting to add in the inherent advantage of allowing bio-pets to be buffed by doctors, fed master made chef food, and the inherent bonus of CH's buffing thier pets HAM and attack for short periods of time.

Now is a doctors buffs and chef foods being used on pets a bug or on purpose ? Droids don't get either of these, yet you want to swing the nerf bat even before anything goes live because you choose to see an inherent imbalance. Maybe this should be shouted from the tree tops like you chose to do on the DE forum.

Leave DE's alone. We haven't had anything but nerfs since launch and you are just trying to stir up controversy so we stay that way.

You cant force feed pets when they arent hungy and, there is no evidense that shows that chef food gives creatures the buff aside from healing their wounds. so petsmust nowrely on doctor buffs? when will they call that overpowering and nerf that too? How many CH's do you know buff their pets? No BE is asking for a DE nerf. we just want out own system fixed but not at the expense of getting others nerfed.

How else do you expect people to draw a comparison? Im sure if your combat droids were weaker than a CL10 BE creatin, you guys would be asking why your bots are underpowered too. Not like they are overpowered at all. Players dont even need pets when they are fully buffed and suited in composite

Tell that to Tal-N who is posting everywhere that the droids are overpowered so the Dev's see it. We don't even have the option to buff a droid, yet he is calling a probot overpowered compared to a "wild" CL 10 pet. a BE CL 10 pet is overpowered compared to a CL 10 pet too, and so it should be !! It is a player created item and should be more powerful than something crawling around in the wild, otherwise why even bother making one ? Try comparing a looted FWG5 to a player made FWG5. Quite a difference.

The bottom line is that pets are buffable and droids are not, plusdroids need batteries wherepets do not. There is your bonus you were looking for in an advantage of ptes over droids.

Don't scream at us. We were cheering for BE's when they got some boosts since you all were just like us but on the organic side. It is just painful for us to see a knee jerk reaction from one jerk who doesn't like someone else playing in the sand box.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gribnitz the Rodian with the glasses
Master Droid Engineer - Master Artisan

Did you know it is physically impossible to lick your own elbow?

Kauri Server shop located at -1155, -4532 only 900 meters South of Bestine

ArthurDentOnBria

Wed Mar 03, 2004 8:09 pm

#13

Ok, I dusted the cobwebs off my probot and checked the CL. I was wrong, it *does* say CL 10, which is obviously wrong. Oh well, honestly this is not a big deal to me. I think this is simply a case of probots displaying the wrong CL.

ArthurDent - former Bio Engineer, Tailor, and Droid Engineer
Account cancelled 7/8/05 due to game breaking bugs in these professions that have been neglected for FAR too long. Last day July 27 2005
custom tailoring and droid orders welcome. "making Evil products since July 2003"
Achiever: 80%, Explorer: 60%, Socializer: 46%, Killa 13%

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Thread: Evidence shows we're not getting a fair trade of power for HAM