Bio Engineer Archive
Thread: Combat Droids, A Bio-Engineer's Take
rosstherodian wrote:
all the droid's i've seen, well the post-nerf ones, all suck in combat.
Ture... as do all lvl 10 and below pets...
Fugee,
Don't even go there man. Everyone can use pets (wider market). Only people that sink points intoDE will be able to use Combat Droids. We don't even know how powerful they'll be yet. People may need to sink a LOT of points into the class to have decently strong droid.
There's a difference between creatures that need to be tamed and droids that are programmed when they are created. DE's have both software and hardware engineering skills. If they can program it they should be able to use it.
Also, don't forget that some high level droid components can only be made by a Master Artisan. That means a DE needs to either buy them or spend an extra 43 skill points for the rest of the Artisan tree. If they are planning on reaching MDE that means they've alreadymaxed 2 of their 3.5 professions.
Finally, asking for another profession to be nerfedis not cool. Ask the BE/CH's on this board. They're feeling pretty beat up right about now. Instead we should be concentrating on making sure our fixes are finished and then enjoying what we have. Let's end the vicious cycle of nerf baiting.
Haggis
I have no problem with DE's being able to use combat droids. I know several DE's who are working on Master DE/Master Merchant. They are giving up so many combat and scout skills (Maskscent) skills to achieve this that they can barely fend off a gnort. Being able to use a combat droid or 2 should put them right back in line with a mid-level Marksman.
Withold judgement until the details are known. Until we know what these "combat modules" are we are merely speculating and probably getting folks riled up over nothing. No need to jump to false conclusions at this point.
HaggisofAhazi wrote:
Fugee,
Don't even go there man. Everyone can use pets (wider market). Only people that sink points intoDE will be able to use Combat Droids. We don't even know how powerful they'll be yet. People may need to sink a LOT of points into the class to have decently strong droid.
There's a difference between creatures that need to be tamed and droids that are programmed when they are created. DE's have both software and hardware engineering skills. If they can program it they should be able to use it.
Also, don't forget that some high level droid components can only be made by a Master Artisan. That means a DE needs to either buy them or spend an extra 43 skill points for the rest of the Artisan tree. If they are planning on reaching MDE that means they've alreadymaxed 2 of their 3.5 professions.
Finally, asking for another profession to be nerfedis not cool. Ask the BE/CH's on this board. They're feeling pretty beat up right about now. Instead we should be concentrating on making sure our fixes are finished and then enjoying what we have. Let's end the vicious cycle of nerf baiting.
Haggis
First off, you can't nerf what's not already there. If it's not in the game, then how can you nerf it.
Secondly, you complain about needing Artisan skills for high level droid components. Well... we BE need aCH with at least 0/0/4/0 be able to sell mounts. Don't even get me started on counting skill points.
Lastly, programming a droid is actually quite the same as training a pet, I kow, I have a droid which I have programmed. Yet again something else we BE need a CH to.
I am not a BE or a DE. I am working up a combat class.
To fight, I have to learn the skills to be an effective fighter.
A CH has to go up a tree to be able to use the pets they use.
A BE has to go a tree to be able to use their creations.
A DE should have to go up a tree to fight...period.
Effective fighting is not a priviledge, it's earned. DE's need to earn the skill to fight. I don't see what the problem is with that.
Strongbow wrote:I have no problem with DE's being able to use combat droids. I know several DE's who are working on Master DE/Master Merchant. They are giving up so many combat and scout skills (Maskscent) skills to achieve this that they can barely fend off a gnort. Being able to use a combat droid or 2 should put them right back in line with a mid-level Marksman.
Withold judgement until the details are known. Until we know what these "combat modules" are we are merely speculating and probably getting folks riled up over nothing. No need to jump to false conclusions at this point.
I dont know. This just seems to be very dangerous thinking. I mean, how can you justify giving a pure artisan class combat skill or abilities. I mean, whats next. Architects asking to drop walls on mobs, Tailors wanting to towel whip mobs? And all of this could be justified by saying this particular (DE) artisan class gets added combat abilities, so they should to. I just think its a real fine line they are trying to walk and it would be best if they didnt walk it.
Tilen
Scylla
Oaktree,
I think I've included my professions in anumber of replies to your posts, but to be more specific I am:
- BE 2-2-4-1 (probably2-2-4-2 by tomorrow)
- CH 1-2-1-1
- Pistol Specialist
and a few other assorted odds and ends in Scout and Marksman. I am a BE first, but have been spending more time lately pushing for dual pets so I can take advantage of the double CH xp's before the nerf takes them away (same thing I did before the DNA Sample nerf), as well as harvest more meat topush further up the BE Experimentation tree. I rarely buy meat on the bazaar. I prefer to collect it myself.
Hopefully that sheds a little more light for you on why I take particulary postions regarding BE and CH. I'm not one of those uber combat players looking to make CH my second combat mastery. My pets have been and will be the fruits of my experimentation, and are my primary protection when I'm working in the field. I complement themwith my meager pistol skills. My goal is totake BE and CH all the way to master.
Cheers,
Haggis
Fugee,
First off, you can't nerf what's not already there. If it's not in the game, then how can you nerf it.
Secondly, you complain about needing Artisan skills for high level droid components. Well... we BE need aCH with at least 0/0/4/0 be able to sell mounts. Don't even get me started on counting skill points.
Lastly, programming a droid is actually quite the same as training a pet, I kow, I have a droid which I have programmed. Yet again something else we BE need a CH to.
-Roger
Lowca
Kadaraa, Naboo
My appologies if I was a bit harsh in my original post. I still have to disagree with your first point though. A design has been put on the table for a fix to the DE profession. You may not be asking for live content to be nerfed, but you are certainly asking for the design to be nerfed. Try to think of it from their perspective. That's like one of them asking the devs to scrap the wonderful plans they have for our clone line and only letting us make non-CH pets. Not very cool, is it?
If I can try to sum up your basic arguement it sounds like you're saying
"They can train their own creations. Why can't we?"
I think the answer lies in the difference between a droid and a pet.A droid is essentially a mobile computer built to do exactly what you tell it to.A pethas a mind of it's own,and without behaviour modification it will do whatever it wants. It's easier to browse the web than it is to potty train a puppy.
Think about the real world professions thatBE, CH and DEare based on."Dog Trainer" and "Genetic Engineer" are two very different professions requiring differentskill sets.The scientists that cloned Dolly the sheep probably don't have weekend jobs assheep herders. A "Hardware Engineer" on the other hand, has to have a pretty good understanding of the software required to make his creations work. If he doesn't then he's just building expensive paperweights.
I think the devs are just applying common sense to the problem. The "science" is what makes science fiction believeable. Of course "The Force" isn't science, or at least it wasn't until the whole midichlorian thing, but that is another topic for another day. Utimately not all professions will have the same abilities, otherwise we'd all be carbon copies of each other.Where's the fun in that?
A couple of minor items:
- I'm not complaining about the need for Artisan skills. A lot of folks are focusing onthe factthat it only takes one tree in artisan to reach DE, whileBE's must take two trees (plus novice)in separate professions. I'm merelypointing out that there are hidden costs to excelling as a DE that people are overlooking when comparing the cost to BE/CH.
- I have a droid as well and am familiar with the programming interface. I comes in handy for crafting in the field and is probably one of the best investments I've ever made. Every BE should own one.
Haggis
My appologies if I was a bit harsh in my original post. I still have to disagree with your first point though. A design has been put on the table for a fix to the DE profession. You may not be asking for live content to be nerfed, but you are certainly asking for the design to be nerfed. Try to think of it from their perspective. That's like one of them asking the devs to scrap the wonderful plans they have for our clone line and only letting us make non-CH pets. Not very cool, is it?
If I can try to sum up your basic arguement it sounds like you're saying
"They can train their own creations. Why can't we?"
I think the answer lies in the difference between a droid and a pet.A droid is essentially a mobile computer built to do exactly what you tell it to.A pethas a mind of it's own,and without behaviour modification it will do whatever it wants. It's easier to browse the web than it is to potty train a puppy.
Think about the real world professions thatBE, CH and DEare based on."Dog Trainer" and "Genetic Engineer" are two very different professions requiring differentskill sets.The scientists that cloned Dolly the sheep probably don't have weekend jobs assheep herders. A "Hardware Engineer" on the other hand, has to have a pretty good understanding of the software required to make his creations work. If he doesn't then he's just building expensive paperweights.
I think the devs are just applying common sense to the problem. The "science" is what makes science fiction believeable. Of course "The Force" isn't science, or at least it wasn't until the whole midichlorian thing, but that is another topic for another day. Utimately not all professions will have the same abilities, otherwise we'd all be carbon copies of each other.Where's the fun in that?
A couple of minor items:
- I'm not complaining about the need for Artisan skills. A lot of folks are focusing onthe factthat it only takes one tree in artisan to reach DE, whileBE's must take two trees (plus novice)in separate professions. I'm merelypointing out that there are hidden costs to excelling as a DE that people are overlooking when comparing the cost to BE/CH.
- I have a droid as well and am familiar with the programming interface. I comes in handy for crafting in the field and is probably one of the best investments I've ever made. Every BE should own one.
Haggis
Good points all. In essence, most everyone basicly what to know, "What's In I t For Me." I'm not a DE so I do not know all the is entailed in making droids. I am a 1/1/3/0 BE, 1/1/0/3 CH, and a Novice Swordsman. I have been playing to be an BE from the start. I took up CH to be able to use my creations. Yet a BE is not all about making pets. We make specialized things so Tailors and Chefs can make enhanced items (when it's working) and med products for use on pets.
"They can train their own creations. Why can't we?"
Well... for the amount of skill points we BE have to use to get there, why the hell can't we? The only professions that use more skill points than we do are BH, CM, and Commandos, all combat classes. Asa matter of fact, BE is the only crafting class that requires more than 29 points in the starting professions.
If the proposition for DE only combat droid is allowed, then there will be a mass exodus to the DE profession. For only 92 skill points, anyone can make and use an ubercombat droid with no risk. Even a CH needs more than that and they have to put themselves at risk to get those pets.
Creature Handlers are able to take nothing but raw resources and turn them into combat machines. Sure, the raw resources look like baby creatures and the combat machines look like adult creatures, but the process is the same.
DE's would be no more powerful than CH's already are. There is already precedent in the game for a class that crafts its own weapons - Creature Handlers are that class.
We can argue that CH's are too powerful. That's a fine thing to argue about.
But I think we all agree that nerfs suck. Period.
So what do you do when you have an impalance? What do you do when your developers make a collosal mistake and end up with one class vastly out-pacing every other one in terms of combat effectiveness? Nerfing them is the answer most commonly chosen - and it's an example of intellectual laziness.
The better answer is to leave the overpowered class alone and scale the rest of the classes up to that same level. It takes more effort to design, consequently it's almost never done in the modern MMORPG world, but it is the RIGHT answer.
So don't nerf CH. Make everyone else as powerful as CH. If this will make DE's as powerful as CH's, then good for them. Now go make sure every other combat class has the same power to skill credit ratio as CH.
--Insomnia
Anyone can control a droid because droidsare sentient, can function properly on their own, whereas your creatures just poop all over the place. It takes skills to tame a animal.
But honestly, as a DE I want a decent combat droid. KEYWORD: DECENT. I do NOT want an "uber" droid. I, and other DE's, do not want super droids that will create a "mass exodus" to DE. What I see as a decent droid is nowhere near a master CH pet. I'm hoping for near sludge panther level (different resists for droids of course) or that of a low faction pet (more rebel trooper strength than imperial). We do NOT want to make DE the "new CH." Giving us a super droid, or a droid near a master CH pet is completely unfair to the CH's. I really don't want to see the current pet wars change from creatures to droids. My biggest fear is seeing armies of droidekas rolling across the battlefields.....
And for anyone serious about being a DE, especially a Master DE, master artisan is required. It takes like 8 separate master artisan parts to make the barest bones advanced probot, and more for certain modules. I've used a lot of skills points just to make a bunch of droids, most of which are worthless because they all do similar things. Our most expensive droid to make, which takes a lot of rare steel, the binary load lifter, does NOTHING! I think some usefull combat droids are good, as long as they arent "uber."
I posted this the Droid Engineer forum. I figures I'd post ithere as well to keep Bio-Enginner's informed.
From a Bio-Engineer's standpoint, I must argue against DE only combat droids. As a BE, we too get to create pets. The only problem with our pets is that we need to aquire a whole new set of skills to use them. Even weaponsmiths require a different skill set to use thier weapons. Why should DE be any different? If DE are allowed to use thier pets with no additional skills, then that would make them over-powered as they are a crafting profession.
"But we are a broken profession," they cry!
Yeah... well so are we Bio-Engineers...