Bio Engineer Archive
Thread: Combat Droids, A Bio-Engineer's Take
EricTheGreat - a sludge panther is a level 23 pet. I have several of them.
To be able to use my pets, I had to spend some points. Anyone wanting to use anything over level 15 has to spends some points to do it.
By giving DEs the ability to have a level 23 pet, you get a free ticket to content you "should" not be able to have until you earned the right. This is the main reason why everyone else was nerfed.
So tell me exactly why DEs should be any different?
And as far as DEs being dependent on other classes, there are other crafting professions in the same boat. As a tailor if I want tissues, I need a BE. As an armorsmith I need tailoring skills. The list goes on. Do I agree with this? Absolutely not, but that's the way it is and I doubt it's going to change.
Combat droids are an excellent idea. But keeping them for DEs only is one of the dumbest ideas I've heard yet. You just said that your skill relies on artisan- meaning you are a crafter, period. Fighters should be able to use the droids, and DEs should be able to make power combat droids just like BEs will be able to make power pets.
But DEs should never be allowed to use their creations unless they spend some points...just like everyone else.
Let's do the math.
For a CH to be able to go get the biggest, baddest pet in the game, train it, and use it in any way they see fit requires the following skill credits:
15 for novice scout, 14 to climb the hunter tree, 14 to climb the explorer tree, 6 for novice CH, 14*4 for the 4 CH trees, and 1 for master.
Adding that all up, we get 106 skill credits.
In order for a droid engineer to be able to create the biggest, baddest droid in the game, the droid engineer needs BOTH master artisan AND master DE. That's:
15 for novice artisan, 14*4 for the four artisan trees, 6 for master artisan, 6 for novice DE, 14*4 for the four DE trees, and 1 for master DE.
Adding that all up, we get 140 skill credits.
DE is paying MORE for their mastery than CH is - why shouldn't they reap benefits of similar caliber? DE's should be a little less effective in combat because they get other things with those skill credits (the ability to build basic harvestors, the ability to survey, etc), but to argue "you're a crafter you should have to spend skill credits to use your creations" is silly.
A Creature Handler DOES NOT have to spend skill credits to use his creation. Once he's able to create the pet, he's able to use it. If that's fair, then allowing DE's to use their creations is fair as well.
--Insomnia
You guys are cruel. We droid engineers have been broken for what seems to be an eternity and the first silver lining to the droid profession and you're all whining nerf.
Just for the record Wanji not all of us are crying nerf. I think DE's are long overdue for a fix, just like our clone line is. Hang in there, and may you get everything you need for your profession to become a great one.
Haggis
Actually I agree completely that Droid Engineers are in desperate need of fixes and attention, and I dont think you'll find anyone (thats rational) ingame or on these boards that would disagree with that. I think a majority of people who disagree with the move to make a DEs a combat/crafting hybrid class take issue with the equity of it, nothing else.
And I really fail to see how questioning the proposed fixes that are maybe going to be implemented at a indeterminate future date is nerfing the class.
As a fan and user of droids, with a friend who finally just made master DE, I wish the proposal would have included many more solid bug fixes and ways of making the class more viable and desirous as far as its wares - not something that basically will move it towards a whole new paradigm.
For the record, I agree for fixing a broken profession. I just don't agree to a MDE being able to create and use some uber combat droid. While Insomnia may argue that it take Master Artisan to create these droids, I don't find that to be a valid arguement. Sure, if you want to make these droids with no outside help, then yes you'll need to spend those extra points there. But, the majority will not spend those points and simply buy what they need to spend those precious skill points elsewhere.
While some argue that CH tame and train these creatures, it's not the same as making them. CHs are stuck with what is available to themin the wild. They don't create a thing. While a BE (with the promised improved cloning) can create creatures with specific resistances, armor rating, color, etc. That ther in lies the major difference. If I, as a BE, were able to use the creatures that I create w/o spending a single skillpoint in CH, I would be more than happy to see a DE do the same thing with a combat droid. While in my opinion, if that were true, DEs would get the betterof the deal, but it would suit me nonetheless.
While some argue that CH tame and train these creatures, it's not the same as making them. CHs are stuck with what is available to themin the wild. They don't create a thing. While a BE (with the promised improved cloning) can create creatures with specific resistances, armor rating, color, etc. That ther in lies the major difference. If I, as a BE, were able to use the creatures that I create w/o spending a single skillpoint in CH, I would be more than happy to see a DE do the same thing with a combat droid. While in my opinion, if that were true, DEs would get the betterof the deal, but it would suit me nonetheless.
I would make such an argument. I would argue that CH's are BETTER at making pets than we are. The only difference between a CH who uses creatures he tames himself and a CH who uses creatures that a BE creates is that the CH who uses creatures he tames himself has access to a lot more different kinds of creatures. The CH can't change the color of his pets (neither can we at this point), but if you ask most CH's out there if they want a tougher pet or a different colored pet, I'm guessing they'd choose the tougher one. And in each size class, the CH usually gets better pets thanwe get (for example, I don't care how good your crafted kahmurras are if they can't compete with a wild rock beetle). There's no reason DE's shouldn't be the same kind of thing as a CH - other than some kind of prejudice against professions that sit atop the artisan tree.
--Insomnia
Well from what I can see on THs point of view is that the statement about 'ONLY droid engineers can crate and use these modules' has caused some people to assume that only DEs can have combat droids while others see it meerly to mean they are the only ones to change the droids combat modes and such. This has lead to TH asking if people think DEs should be a mix of crafters and combat. In that situation I'd say no since they come from artisan which means they shouldn't have any combat effectiveness without a secondry profession.
Wanji wrote:
You guys are cruel. We droid engineers have been broken for what seems to be an eternity and the first silver lining to the droid profession and you're all whining nerf.
i wouldnt say cruel. ive had several DE's and former DE's tell me that its not near as broken as BE and never has been.
yes i would love to see combat droids in the game, but some of the arguments here are just silly...
-DE need to have master artisan to make droids.
DE cant buy components? please! do i make my own master DOC adv chemistry components for pet meds? i would love to, but unfortunately with the amount of skillpoints it takes me to be ableuse whatcreatures create i can only afford some insignificant novice medic and marksman skills. and ok, DE need master artisan to be self sufficient, but the amount of skillpoints it takes a BE to be self sufficient is more than twice the cap, so that argument holds no clout here.
-DE deserve a break! cmon guys let em have it.
i dont think they shouldnt have it, but that doesnt mean i dont think it should be done in a balanced way.
-if DE can make them they should be able to use them, but BE are scientists and know nothing of combat.
thats fine, but if a DE should be able to use his great knowlege of crafting combat droids to somehow manifest the skill to command them efficiently in combat, then why cant a BE use his great knowlege of engineering superior combat pets to manifest the skill to command them efficiently in combat? theres no reason. BE and DE are both engineers and theres no difference in the logic.
-BE can make tissues and pet meds, DE can only make droids
yes, but pets have no non-combat functionality. all the droid modules (including many that will be added) are equivalent to tissues and pet meds. pet meds have a large market, but require us to buy components from others, and tissues can only be sold to taiors and chefs. non-combatdroids have many useful functions that can benefit almost any player.
-CH skillpoints vs DE skillpoints... blah
comparing DE to CH is a problem in itself because DE is an artisan class and CH is a combat class.
if you compare the skillpoints required to make and use the bestcreature pets and be self sufficient (MBE, MCH, Ranger-camo, Artisan-survey, MMedic, MScout, Doc-chem, ect... list goes on) to the skillpoints to make and use the best combat droids and be self-sufficient (MDE, MArtisan) theres not much comparison.
as ive said before - either combat droids should be equal to and no higher than CL 15 or so (note: non-CH creature pets will be 10), or MBE should get some sort of bonus to creature lvls for clones (like a +5-10) at master, regardless of CH skills. a non-CH MBE would still need a CH to tame and train his pet, but it would be balanced (toughest DE combat droids could be CL 25, MBE non-CH can control CL 20 clones andCL 10 wild pets).
i dont want to take combat droids away from DE, but i do want it to be balanced.
Way off topic, considering the msg forum we're in, but since I am here..
DE's deserve a boost.. a significant boost. IF that boost moves them into an almost-hybrid-like profession that gains some combat capability through the use of droids, I am down with that. It will add a bit more variety to the grinding.. erm.. crafting classes, which honestly cannot be a bad thing. This is all assuming that the DE only combat droids will be within the realms of reason, perhaps the MDE versions being similar in nature to the pre-Probots(?). Just a shot in the dark, but anything for DE is better than nothing and this is another profession that has urgently required a fix for quite some time.. as long as BE's and Chef's have, definitely.
Also, for the folks who think that a Master Artisan and Master Droid Engineer combination are self sufficient, they aren't. Such a combination still requires outside help with their droids, particularily that of an Armorsmith if they want to add some protection. So, for spending more points than all other crafting professions, a DE still is incapable of being self sufficient.. which is the way it should be, since no other crafter is either.
Now the Bio-Engineer side of me has no problem with DE's getting their combat droids. As long as BE receives some fixing of their own(milk, engineered critters, etc!) then I have no cause for complaint. I do have an issue with the proposed death decay(sampling DNA will be sooooo much fun in the future!), but that is a topic for another thread. Cheers!
weaponsmiths - full weapon certs
armorsmiths - special armor only wearable by them
bio engineers - pets only usable by BE
etc etc etc