Bio Engineer Archive
Thread: Regarding the push by some to have MCH/MBE be considered CL80...
, or numerous bug fixes and other issues we have raised.however, to my understanding - CL equates to combat level. not elite combat mastery, as you put it.
i don't think anyone here is requesting damage-dealing special attacks, which are gained by mastery of elite combat professions.
we are asking for a respectable level, something that - in context of this game's storyline - we should have gained while "in the field".
a CL that will keep us from becoming incapacitated, to some degree.
in regards to game mechanics, we are a part of the base-raiding process. we are expected to have combat exposure.
i don't know if that changes your mind at all... but it puts a much different spin on what you are trying to convey, in my opinion.
goatt_13 wrote:
i can't address every single issue brought up here. your thoughts are appreciated.
however, to my understanding - CL equates to combat level. not elite combat mastery, as you put it.
nod, I agree - I was simply stating I had no idea how CL is calculated beyond "double elite combat mastery == 80", and I suppose single elite master == 54. I know there are bits shoved in here and there which take my BE/R/CH template to 61, but the whole system is far from transparent. I think we agree, however, that CL equates to (or is meant to by SOE, anyway) combat worthiness. It obviously has several holes, such as MCH sans pets being rather inept in combat aside from being able to use non-profession-specific weapons linked to CL. I use an advanced laser rifle myself, purely by virtue of being above CL54. From that model one could perhaps infer that I can use this due to my extensive field experience, even though CH doesn't stem from marksman nor do any other skills I have. However, I _could_ bring some combo of pets equal to CL70 to bear in which case I am indeed combat worthy to that level.
A pure BE may have storyline "field experience", but there is no in-game mechanic for gaining such relating to what you actually do. They could just as well have yardtrash sampling experience coupled with macro crafting experience. No combat exp or actual killing is required, and BE provides nothing aside from the ever-powerful Sample of Death in the way of combat any morethansomeonewith 0040 scout. I can't convince myself that a BE is unto themselves "combat worthy" much at all, and certainly not that MBE == CL54. I raised a couple of issues with where such CL would show up as well, and there are at least two lines it would make no sense in (tissues and experimentation) IMO. That leaves cloning and sampling, but cloning advances with generic med crafting exp, meaning it is just down to having the resources. It'd also be the obvious thing to do to grind that out to IV first before starting sampling, which is logical from a meta POV but not the storyline reason for having any CL granted there. Aside from sampling and MBE (which is just more sampling bonuses anyway, but doesn't require ANY exp to get much less more sampling [dev forbid!]) it's hard to pick where it'd fall "from a storyline POV" that is also balanced to how folks will actually approach it. And with just 1-2 lines out of 4 even vaguely "field experience" I again can't see CL54 from MBE.
i don't think anyone here is requesting damage-dealing special attacks, which are gained by mastery of elite combat professions.
Nope, though I feel a better approach would be to ask for defense mods, tranq rifles, and other things to help subdue our prey. Maybe a burst run or terrain negotiation bonus, and of course maskscent mods. We could at least have the exploration scout branch as a requirement instead of hunter....
we are asking for a respectable level, something that - in context of this game's storyline - we should have gained while "in the field".
I just can't wrap my head around that without similar things being doled out to anyone with survey skills, for instance, which certainly requires field work (even if it's not specifically looking for critters and then fiddling with them...), etc. If there are resources out there which tell the CL gained at each box or better explain it perhaps I could see this more from your POV, although MBE == CL54 would still seem silly to me do to the far reaching implications.
a CL that will keep us from becoming incapacitated, to some degree.
Tools which make that less likely would be more creature specific (ie, not a PVP boost), and IMO make the profession more of a challenge rather than just getting a blanket "I'm CL80 and mask'ed, so I can walk around most planets with nary a worry about aggro". Making maskscent non-dependent on CL, and changing aggro (I've been chased for absurd distances on Dath as a CH trying to tame stuff, with more to lose as the baby may despawn - at least as a BE sampling stuff I can run away and come back without similar concerns since the whole nest won't likely be unsample-able (I think that's right) babies.
in regards to game mechanics, we are a part of the base-raiding process. we are expected to have combat exposure.
I view BE's inclusion there as upping the challenge, not making us a combat class. I've helped take down a few bases pre-CU and even then I was back-line, to be called in after things had settled. We're just the techs the combat guys need to make the base fall down, not neccessarily combatants. Even pre-CU as MCH/R0030/MBE doing GCW stuff I wasn't likely to be up for terribly long, so I don't see that this function has changed just because there is a CL to look at now. Also, we are not individually expected to have combat exposure, and there are plenty of templates which _contain_ MBE which would be far more effective in such conflicts than an MCH/MBE (which seems to be the root of this particular push).
i don't know if that changes your mind at all... but it puts a much different spin on what you are trying to convey, in my opinion.
Not really Sorry, I just think BE asking for changes should focus on things more profession specific. The timing now is especially bad as it does look like some non-com MCH looking for a way to justify an exception to the CL80 requirement for the new quest for CL70+ critter control. I don't recall seeing much in the way of posts asking for CL previously, but I took a break during the period the CU was really breaking stuff so perhaps it came up then and this is a resurgence
From an outsider's (and dare I say developer's?) standpoint, I would be inclined to somewhat agree with the original poster. Take it as you will.
Dev's would be reluctant to give BE's a CL, partly because of base raids. The theory goes that you need a squishy guy that is somehow crucial, and that everybody needs to protect, in order to up the challenge a notch. Practice may be different, but that's the theory.
Philosophically, BE's are really crafters. They do not have any abilities that would directly affect combat such as damage dealing or healing. Yes, you do go out into the fields to sample. But other crafters also have "field experience" trying to get to that harvestor in the middle of that bunch of rancors. The only difference is that you have to actually stick a needle in them!
Isolating the problem, the issue is survival when out sampling the high level mobs. The most straightforward thing to do is add skills to the BE to help mitigate this risk. Perhaps, the ability to administer an animal-only sedative (with a chance of failure), that would render the creature docile for 20-30 seconds, time enough to grab a few samples and run? Perhaps some added +masked scent modifiers to the DNA sampling line as well?
The other issue, that pushes quite a few BEs to be CHs as well may be the difficulty in selling pets. You only really sell to one profession, CHs. Everybody else needs to track down a CH to train the pet for them. And all they want is usually a mount. I doubt they really care if it's CL 1 or CL 10, as long as it moves just as speedily.
Make mountable pets full-sized and saddled upon production, even if only CL 1. That's one solution. Make pets redeedable. This would ease the supply chain from BE->CH->Customer. That's another solution.
Hybrid Crafter/CH's may have their own set of problems with regards to the new high-CL pets they can quest for. I won't hesitate to say that I haven't even looked at their class in any detail, so I shall not comment on that one, other than to say I'm sure similar profession-specific fixes can be found.
As I said, I'm not major expert in either of the professions, so take it as you will.
AJedimasterNow wrote:
I would just like to point out that 54+54 is 108... Not 80... the difference between 54 and 80 is 26 pts. So, BE only needs to give 26 pts to get to lvl 80. Considering alone each combat profession is CL 54 I don't think this is too much to ask for. As a BE/CH I am biased I admit it. I also have a BH/CH so I meet the CL req on another character. CL is very very important in survival in this post CU world. If I as a 61 (MBE/CH/Ranger 0030) were to sample say a 75... I can expect to be incapped in one to two hits. Right now, maskscent does not effect this equation because these critters are non-aggro (bull maklocs to be specific) Now, when this expansion comes out this might change as I will probably go dna hunting there, then again maybe not. But the point is we need those 26 pts to be all we can be, in both CH (we didn't lose anything, but effectively they gained something so how can I not feel that as a loss?) and as an active DNA gathering BE.
I agree, with the number of skill points needed to master the profession and the fact that much of the BE's "work" is done in the field, I dont think it is a stretch to give some CL. If they are going to give us no CL then put us on par with all other crafting professions and give us some skillpoints back.
AJedimasterNow wrote:
I would just like to point out that 54+54 is 108... Not 80... the difference between 54 and 80 is 26 pts. So, BE only needs to give 26 pts to get to lvl 80. Considering alone each combat profession is CL 54 I don't think this is too much to ask for. As a BE/CH I am biased I admit it. I also have a BH/CH so I meet the CL req on another character. CL is very very important in survival in this post CU world. If I as a 61 (MBE/CH/Ranger 0030) were to sample say a 75... I can expect to be incapped in one to two hits. Right now, maskscent does not effect this equation because these critters are non-aggro (bull maklocs to be specific) Now, when this expansion comes out this might change as I will probably go dna hunting there, then again maybe not. But the point is we need those 26 pts to be all we can be, in both CH (we didn't lose anything, but effectively they gained something so how can I not feel that as a loss?) and as an active DNA gathering BE.
Like I said in my earlier post we (BioE's) are the only hybrid crafters left post CU. We spend 29 more skill points to open up our novice box than any other crafter! If we are to be crafters fine make us crafters and be done with it give us back the 29 skill points so we can place them in something usefull!! If we are to be Hybrid proffesion (part combat part crafter) as they say we are for now then bring our base CL for BioE up to 27 half that of a complete combat proffesion.
diepa wrote:
AJedimasterNow wrote:
I would just like to point out that 54+54 is 108... Not 80... the difference between 54 and 80 is 26 pts. So, BE only needs to give 26 pts to get to lvl 80. Considering alone each combat profession is CL 54 I don't think this is too much to ask for. As a BE/CH I am biased I admit it. I also have a BH/CH so I meet the CL req on another character. CL is very very important in survival in this post CU world. If I as a 61 (MBE/CH/Ranger 0030) were to sample say a 75... I can expect to be incapped in one to two hits. Right now, maskscent does not effect this equation because these critters are non-aggro (bull maklocs to be specific) Now, when this expansion comes out this might change as I will probably go dna hunting there, then again maybe not. But the point is we need those 26 pts to be all we can be, in both CH (we didn't lose anything, but effectively they gained something so how can I not feel that as a loss?) and as an active DNA gathering BE.
I agree, with the number of skill points needed to master the profession and the fact that much of the BE's "work" is done in the field, I dont think it is a stretch to give some CL. If they are going to give us no CL then put us on par with all other crafting professions and give us some skillpoints back.
I agree with these two posters. No specials, no offensive mods,etc. Just a small CL bump so lvl 80 is possible when combined with another elite combat mastery.
Either bring our pre-reqs inline with other crafting profs or give usthe 26 cl bump.
Iski_Orziro wrote:
From an outsider's (and dare I say developer's?) standpoint, I would be inclined to somewhat agree with the original poster. Take it as you will.
i find it interesting that you would take that standpoint, knowing the track record of how and when profession "supplements" are added to this game.
Message Edited by goatt_13 on 10-14-2005 11:55 AM
Roycroft wrote:
diepa wrote:
AJedimasterNow wrote:
I would just like to point out that 54+54 is 108... Not 80... the difference between 54 and 80 is 26 pts. So, BE only needs to give 26 pts to get to lvl 80. Considering alone each combat profession is CL 54 I don't think this is too much to ask for. As a BE/CH I am biased I admit it. I also have a BH/CH so I meet the CL req on another character. CL is very very important in survival in this post CU world. If I as a 61 (MBE/CH/Ranger 0030) were to sample say a 75... I can expect to be incapped in one to two hits. Right now, maskscent does not effect this equation because these critters are non-aggro (bull maklocs to be specific) Now, when this expansion comes out this might change as I will probably go dna hunting there, then again maybe not. But the point is we need those 26 pts to be all we can be, in both CH (we didn't lose anything, but effectively they gained something so how can I not feel that as a loss?) and as an active DNA gathering BE.
I agree, with the number of skill points needed to master the profession and the fact that much of the BE's "work" is done in the field, I dont think it is a stretch to give some CL. If they are going to give us no CL then put us on par with all other crafting professions and give us some skillpoints back.
I agree with these two posters. No specials, no offensive mods,etc. Just a small CL bump so lvl 80 is possible when combined with another elite combat mastery.
Either bring our pre-reqs inline with other crafting profs or give usthe 26 cl bump.
Unfortunately, while I don'tfully understand how CL is computedI do know enough to know that CL doesn't work that way. CL80 == two elite combat masteries, not 1.5. If you are master pistoleer and TK 4400 you aren't 80. According to Kodan's Profession Calc [cu version, 1.4.2, data last updated in the last 7 days, available from here in thedownload section] that'd be CL65, even though MPistoleer is CL54 alone and TK4400 is CL32 alone. It isn't simple addition.
That tool isoff by two for MCH/MBE/R0030 (59 rather than 61), so I don't think it's dead on accurate, but it is illustrative.
Where AJedimasterNow states that 54+54 == 108, not 80, should be plentyproofof this. TKM is CL54, MPistoleer is CL54, but a TKM/MPistoleer is 80. It's not merely a cap at 80, andthere is surely magic involved,but I've yet to see any good explanation of said magic. Thus, even if MBE alone was CL26 (which seems more accurate than CL54) it would not add to an actual elite combat mastery which would alone be CL54 to become CL80. Anything shy of a double mastery is less than CL80.
Any one line of scout gets you a CL of 7, although two lines comes to 9, three to 12, four to 14, and Master Scout grants a CL of 15 if that is all you are - not 7*4 + something for Master Scout. Thus, an MBE has about half of the CL of a Master Scout, and a Master Scout has no intrinsicstraight combat mods or weapon proficiencies, but they must do quite a bit of hunting (ie, actual exposure to combat even if they themselves don't take part) to get there. We get close to animals, but aren't actually fighting them, and get no combat mods at all (not even the +7/+7 melee and ranged defense MDancers get). Since we're 3/4's crafting, that doesn't seem too wrong to me, especially since the last 1/4 isn't exactly full-on combat but just putting oneself in dangerous situations to be able to do one type of crafting we do.
According to KPC-CU, an MBE with no other skills is CL7. This comes entirely from the hunting line in scout; there is no CL granted for having Organic Chemistry IV, which makes sense because it is purely crafting. Novice BE is also crafting, as are 3 out of 4 BE lines. While the Cloning line can be used in conjunction with Sampling, it doesn't require it and IMO would need to be a different sort of exp linked to making critters rather than making tissues or med components. BE has a single line which puts us somewhat in harm's way - Sampling. That's one out of 4 lines. A Basic combat profession like Scout or Marksman grants about 7 CL per line (when considered alone), and an Elite gives about 9 for the first line, and 3 for the master box. Applying that same logic to BE and being generous enough to count the "free" master box (in a more cruel world it'd require Sampling exp, as it only grants bonuses to Sampling, or a ton of Med Crafting exp), we'd get 9+3 CL "points" from mastering BE, and add in the 7CL from Scout for CL19.
The best I can figure from playing around with KPC-CU is that the 7CL from Scout is only that high if that is your first full line in a Basic combat prof. Each subsequent line is worth less no matter if it is from another Basic profession or not - the totals are approximately:
first basic line: CL7
second basic line: CL9 (in some cases 10)
third basic line: CL12 (regardless of whether the second was 9 or 10)
fourth basic line: CL14
5th: CL15, 6th: CL16, 7th: CL17... up to CL20 where you run out of skill points.
So, from this approach MBE itself is worth either 9 or 12 points, depending on whether or not a free master box should be worth 3CL, plus some amount from the scout line which could be from 1 to 7 CL. It seems that elite lines are also worth varying amounts depending on how many you have. The first three are worth 9 points each, but the 4th line completed (in any elite combat profession) is worth only 7, then 6, then 5 each.