Bio Engineer Archive

goatt_13 wrote:
Ketu seems to disregard the process and danger of DNA sampling in the midst of analogy.

I don't think you know me well enough to say that with much certainty

pure crafters need to place harvesters. they can be strategic about it, or they can bring along a friend to kill any/all potential attackers.

Likewise, a BE can bring a bodyguard as well. I'm sure that plenty of pure crafters have combat alts who they could just as well give access to their harvies, but that too can be a bother. A neighbor of mine on the cliffs of Naboo has a pure crafter and several alts, including a full template Jedi, yet he tends his fields of harvies (in his backyard, no less) himself because that is more convenient. However, I've seen shaupaut take him out when he's distracted by conversation. A pure crafter does have options, but there is danger even from stuff an MBE crafter would prolly rolls their eyes at and shrug off.

a smart armorsmith or weaponsmith or chef can successfully accomplish what they need to do, without placing themselves in danger.

we have no option of assistance. mentioning all of this seems redundant.

Why wouldn't we have assistance? Sure, noone can holddown the critter while you do your work, butthere isregular mention here in the forums (CH and BE) about offering to help your BE pal while they collect DNA. Someone to heal you, drag you from danger while incapped, engage aggro'ed creatures or kite them away from you would all prove helpful to those who find it too difficult solo.

what were you sampling during your tenure as BE, Ketu?

I'm still an MBE, and I have played solo easily 90% of the time. I'm not in a PA now, and when I was it wasn't into group hunts or having someone tag along with me to watch my back - I had pets for that, after all. I've never sought nor needed aid getting DNA, and I've played since 2 weeks after launch (check my reg date) with the goal of getting MCH/MBE. I think I managed to make MBE by December 2003, but I'd have to check my old forum posts to see. My wife and I took a break after we had a daughter about a year ago, but before that we bothplayed Way Too Much.

I've still got Mutant Rancor DNA (granted, I had the nice buffs from those days to give me an edge getting it for the old MR/RY... recipe) and lots of DNAfrom variousMereks and Mantrigrues (nice specials... but no more :smileysad, and one Arachne Queen I stumbled across. I have a ton of high damage 10-14k pets made with stuff you don't get off of chubas sitting around useless(and Ilet even more vanish with my vendor many near the beginning of this year). I spent plenty of time on Dath and Endor getting DNA (nothing in Lok or Yavin4 was needed by my recipes). Nowadays I run to Kash for specific needs (I'm making new uber pets for myself, having had almost my entire stable deemed untameable, with an occasional pet for past customers or friends) and can't say I find it difficult at all. Kash isn't nearly so bad as Dath for the areas you need for the common DNA. I have a few Sawtooth in my inventory now, one Mother something-or-other, etc. I got the Kash DNA with just Sampling IV, in fact, but I had Marksman Rifles IV - I had been switching to Rifles when Ibefore I tooka break - to back my play at the time so that naturally made it a walk in the park Not that it was really needed

My old recipes are defunct, and the tool I wrote for myself in excel (and then ported to access) and 190 critter builds I bothered totrack building to help work out my own CL guesstimate formula) is likewise out of date. I'm cribbing form the BETA forums now, and trying out the new BE tool (quite nice, very handy, and contributed to my creation last night of a nice CL23 made with DNA from a 'useless' CL37 deed and FE Chubas). The new recipes are heavy into Kash DNA, and I've madeone CL70 using that and will likely make a couple more in that range before I do respec away from BE. I'd be back if it gets some love, but I think adding CL to equal an elite combat mastery is the wrong kind of love. Content beats quick fixes any day, and boosting CL is only valid for making life a little easier where I don't think it is called for.

I've got a single Peko Peko Albatross sample, and I think that was the only case I had "backup" simply because my guildmates had found it and I drove byon the way to my house and asked about sampling it. I got one sample, it died, and my guildmates looking for feathers were understanding.I can give you a wp to my house if you want to come see it.

parawan and bliel and PSGs aren't usually a match against a Malkloc or Sawtooth. we all know this.

Never even tried parawan or ruby bliel, and PSGs are no longer any use against anything but energy if memory serves (not in game ATM, so I can't double check). Of course, wedo now get a recon armor cert. Not that I wear it often aside from Ubese boots and gloves, prefering +maskscent clothing and my trusty camo coat. I don't use Jawa beer (ugh, beer made from hide... no thanks!), and nothing to booststats orrecovery aside from old Vasarian Brandy I had sitting around.

I have a macro to hop off of my bike/mount, sample DNA, and hop back on it - I can get away from most stuff, even on Dath, with no headache. I have Master Scout maskscent, FWIW, and +25 in bonuses from clothing. I know how to get the DNA I want from a spawn without getting the garbage with low stats so I don't have to get a zillion just to get the high fortitude/whatever I was looking for, and can likewise avoid too-good DNA if I know that'll bollux my recipe. I have made use of crawling to get into the midst of Mutant Rancors on many occasions in the past, and would again if needed. I have yet to see a huge need for Malkloc (and judging by the lack of updating of them on SWGCreatures I think I'm not alone), so I can't speak to that - however,they aren't aggro and don't have the nasty specials MR did, and very likely don't DB (which MR did unless you were especially lucky). I'll go give them a shot in an effort to see this from your POV, though.

And of course, I have a food/chem crafting droid so I can do up genetic templates in the field and get back to sampling when my pack fills, and have had him for quite a while.

In short, I know what I'm doing WRT sampling DNA and being a BE all around (I even dabbled with tissues, and was one of the first to put forth that the 33% per slot info in the crafting tool was wrong, and I've got even more spreadsheets demonstrating it). I've faced plenty of danger, and find it a challenge.

I'm also a very experienced MCH, and with all the tames I've gotta do now for abilities, on all the different planets, with all the pain involved there, I think DNA sampling is a cake walk and more worth my time as far as the critter I can make even if I have toget a packloadof DNA and play a bit. The worst thing now AFAICT is waiting for Kashyyyk named spawns to respawn after I sample them to death. Only Mother V'sed (sp?) was a headache (because things work differently in dungeons) but my pet finished her after she caught me napping.

Edit: Ok, I just went and gathered 9 malkloc samples. It took 45 minutes of casual play once arriving at the TO. I was aggroed maybe5-6 times out of 30+ sample attempts, incapped twice (on the first aggro, and just now while not paying attention writing this), had to run a long way once, never sent cloning, and all in all don't see how you can claim with a straight face that CL80 would make this easier (bah, two incaps now while writing this). I used two shots of Vasarian Brandy just to help my mind a little, and went and had a sit down once after a long string of failures. I sampled two of the brutes to death. Running til the beasts lost interest was trivial - they aren't stalkers, and broke combat fast enough that it cost me maybe one /sampledna worth of time, and since they aren't aggro maskscent wasn't required. I could even go back to sampling the same one that aggro'ed me, which is a cakewalk considering (baby)s I've failed a tame on and provoked aggro chase for fricking ever, and assuming they didn't despawn when you return to the spawn may remember you and aggro in mid tame.

The only challenges hereare that the Malkloc is CL75 and at the edge of our sampling abilities and that Dath hates us and wants us to die (mitigated almost entirelyby the fact the Malkloc just want to make huge piles of themselves and don't care about you unless you provoke it and that any Malkloc spawn will do so you needn't stop at a dangerous one or if aggro'ed). That's it. A higher CL isn't going to matter a whit in that, it'll still take a while to get many samples. If you get killed sampling Malkloc you are either not paying attention, picked a spawn too close to something else aggro, or just really aren't trying (which is somewhat redundant to the first two IMO). My only tools: my speeder, maskscent, (lousy) chef food for mind, much patience and experience, NO armor, and the following aliases:

alias dna /dismount;/follow;/pause 0.3;/sampledna;/pause 0.3;/mount BARC;/mount speeder

alias incap /pause 300;/echo **** 5 Mins since incap;/pause 300;/echo *** SAFE TO INCAP AGAIN! ***

At the first incap, I do /incap; at the second, if the timer isn't up I lay low til it is. Not rocket science, but maybe someone else will find those two useful as well.

I'll go try Sawtooth next, though I don't expect it to be much worse aside from the respawn rate sucking.

*edit 2: Oh, that Sawtooth. I thought you meant Jagged Fang somehow, as I'm not that familar with Kash's cast of characters yet (only got the expansion 3-4 weeks ago, and getting pet abilities has been my focus and Kash doesn't figure into that at all). I collected a ton of Sawtooth DNA the other day for uber CL10s, and previously as well shortly after getting the expansion. I don't know how he'd even figure as one of two examples of reasons for MBE to be CL54. He dropscombat quickly, is only a non-aggro CL60 eliteso he was even sample-able when I just had Sampling IV without any hassle, respawns relatively quickly IMO, and has plenty of places you can run from him. The reds in the area don't aggro since they are just CL30ish humanoids, and you don't even need maskscent.

Perhaps you meant some other Kash critter? If Parawan is what I think it is (burstrun?), it alone should suffice against this big sleepy lout. No clue if he DBs, but I doubt it. Didn't even bother to get any samples this time once I'd confirmed where I was supposed to be going after visiting Jagged Fang first *blush*.

i don't think requesting a boost, even at this particular juncture, is disgraceful or uncalled for.

There is certainly room for multiple opinions on this. I know your template is the exact same as mine,but I know nothingabout your playstyle. I'm patient, and would rather they improved the tools we had than gave us a handout in the form of CL which IMO the profession doesn't warrant. 9 or 12CL, sure, but not elite combat mastery status. Likewise, changing BE to only require medic crafting and no scout and giving us /maskscent at novice (there are already examples of the same combat move coming from multiple profs, so why not?) and maskscent bonuses in the DNA sampling line, and maybe some defense mods at MBE (MDancer gets them, we might as well).

Yes, it'd help, but now that you've put forth the term I would say it's a little disgraceful. Where's the fun in knowing you can just go grab DNA withlittle more worry than a pure crafter going alone to check their harvies? Seriously, answer me that. If you can just zoom up on your bike knowing that the critters on Dath are going to have far more challenge breaking your maskscent, and knowing that they'll hit you for far less if you do get aggro'ed as you bike away, where's the challenge? How do you really call that "field work"?

For a CL80 MBE, gathering DNA becomes little more thanjust another harvy run.

Ketu

Message Edited by Ketu_Sringa on 10-15-2005 02:13 PM

Message Edited by Ketu_Sringa on 10-15-2005 02:50 PM

+--------------------------------------->
| Ketu Sringa   //  MCH/MBE/Ranger0030      /) /)     "Fade away
|                                          ( o o )     into the
| near LOST City, Naboo                     = x =      ethereal 
| Lowca                                    m     m     grey..."
+-------------------------------->       ***(=======-

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Katharian wrote:

Well I feel we should gain a CL however we dont really need combat specails. We are the only hybrid crafting proffesion as it stands now and we spend twice the skill points just to qualify for novice compaired to other "crafters". In my opinion We should be getting CL in return for this as we are a field proffesion and it would help with our field work. Without combat specails we wouldn't hamper the combat elites in any way.

hope that makes my opinion clear, and it is just that my opinion.

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Yup Yup!!

I've posted my opinion on the CH forums and will add the same here. BE's need a boost in CL.

We have to train combat professions to become a BE (scout & medic).

We have recon armor certification.

We are needed in the GCW with base takedowns.

Each of those are combat oriented and as such our CL should show as much.

Dunner

Message Edited by Tarlon on 10-16-2005 12:11 AM

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Ketu_Sringa wrote:

Seriously, answer me that. If you can just zoom up on your bike knowing that the critters on Dath are going to have far more challenge breaking your maskscent, and knowing that they'll hit you for far less if you do get aggro'ed as you bike away, where's the challenge? How do you really call that "field work"?

Here is acouple points you don't understand.

1 skill point = 1 skill point.

$30 = $30.

If I spend the same amount of money and use the same amount of skill points I have every expectation to have access to the same content. That alone negates any and all aggruements against BEs recieving more combat levels you put forth.

Now if you need additional aggruements along the lines of thinking you put forth, BE comes from scout and Medic. Doc is certainly not a combat profession yet recieves CLs. All professions leading from scout and medic do get full combat levels, save one, BE. Grouping with a level 80 pet would be no different than grouping with a level 80 guy at the MO that spams group invites. What is being asked for here is what doctors already have. No weapon specials, no defense mods, no accuracy mods (the things that really matter in combat). Simply access to content paid for and recognition of skill points spent.

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Meplorium wrote:

Here is acouple points you don't understand.

1 skill point = 1 skill point.

$30 = $30.

If I spend the same amount of money and use the same amount of skill points I have every expectation to have access to the same content. That alone negates any and all aggruements against BEs recieving more combat levels you put forth.

My current template gates me from certain content but grants access to other content. Your argument is tantamount to saying that you should be able to do everything at once. Your money is as good as mine, but you can't have all the content all the time. This is kinda "SWG Profs 101" stuff, I won't waste time on it beyond this. Think through what you are saying and the implications it has.

Now if you need additional aggruements along the lines of thinking you put forth, BE comes from scout and Medic. Doc is certainly not a combat profession yet recieves CLs. All professions leading from scout and medic do get full combat levels, save one, BE.

Doctor isn't a crafting profession, that much as certain. They get no crafting skills at all. Also, they require medical experience - healing, basically - to advance. Unlike BEs free Master box, they have to earn 1 million more med exp. Healing can draw aggro, and you aren't likely to make master doctor sitting in the med center - not this year, anyway. Doctors prolly spend far more time in the field than any BE (or any small group of them). I'm not a doctor myself, but I'd think by the time anyone tracks them down for anything but a cyber-arm removal/addition the problem will have resolved itself unless the doc was right there with the group doing the healing/state-removal/etc. They can't attack, but that doesn't make them any less at home on the battlefield. I'd suggest keeping notions like this one out of the Doctor forum, btw. Might get a little warm, and I doubt many will /extinguish you

Grouping with a level 80 pet would be no different than grouping with a level 80 guy at the MO that spams group invites. What is being asked for here is what doctors already have. No weapon specials, no defense mods, no accuracy mods (the things that really matter in combat).

Simply access to content paid for and recognition of skill points spent.

Not to rehash, but you paid for the game, and have access toall of thecontent if you spend the points properly. There are plenty of CL80 combat templates you could go after which can't craft pets or tissues. It's a trade-off, and I'm not the first to point that out in this forum on this topic. If you want to do the DWB, pick up the FOTM template and knock yourself out. Just don't expect to /sampledna on the way. This isn't a difficult concept, and is rather integral to how professions work in SWG.

BTW upping the BE CL is a simple and quick change while adding something like AOE mask scent bombs will never happen nor does such a change step on another professions toes such as addinga vendor.

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I'd rather see BEs hold out for a REAL fix than begging for a change like this which makes little sense for the many reasons I've already covered, not the least of which is that of the 2 basic and 4 elite lines and 1 elite novice and 1 elite master box we require, only two lines require anything in the field. The rest are crafting. If ALL of BE took DNA Sampling experience, it'd be different. Likewise, if the Cloning line had it's own form of exp seperate from med crafting exp (and thus _required_ DNA) it'd be a valid point for more CL. However, we're far more crafting than we are combat, period.

BTW, The vendor-at-master thing isn't my idea but an older one I like, based on the fact that we aren't even in the artisan tree so in addition to the dual novice requirements for BE we'd need yet another novice to even start towards Merchant. Ouch

Ketu

+--------------------------------------->
| Ketu Sringa   //  MCH/MBE/Ranger0030      /) /)     "Fade away
|                                          ( o o )     into the
| near LOST City, Naboo                     = x =      ethereal 
| Lowca                                    m     m     grey..."
+-------------------------------->       ***(=======-

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goatt_13 wrote:

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Ketu_Sringa wrote:

Seriously, answer me that. If you can just zoom up on your bike knowing that the critters on Dath are going to have far more challenge breaking your maskscent, and knowing that they'll hit you for far less if you do get aggro'ed as you bike away, where's the challenge? How do you really call that "field work"?

"far less damage" and "zooming" into the heart of a spawn - imaginative phrases, to say the least.

No imagination needed for those, and they aren't even particularly colorful. What else were you expecting elite combat mastery equivalence (but no combat skills) to grant you?

"The mightly CL80 MBE struts non-chalantly into the spawn ignoring the obvious signs of their danger asthey crunches Mandalorian armor shard beneath their jack-booted heels, laying low those creatures tooweak for their needs and sampling the rest while they cower and cringe before the awesome skill of this intrepid field scientist" would be imaginative and a bit far-fetched. CL80 would mean less chance of aggro breaking, and less damage when attacked, and presumably more health for the BE. Is there something incorrect about my assessment of that? Oh, assuming we had the expansion, and assuming we'd completed all of the quests (and could do so on the strength of MCH and whatever marginal combat skills the points left from MBE/MCH leaves) and that the call delay timer was removed, we could instantly pull out our awesome CL80 critter to stand idly by while we sample in case we get aggroed so that they can take a bit of the heat while we sample.

That's the extent of the relevance of CL80 to an MBE's profession. Any other benefit this grants them fall under the "far reaching implications" I've spoken of before.

Unless you were suggesting Malkloc and Sawtooth sarcastically (nothing indicated such a tone), I don't see how you can think we need to be able to reach CL80 to be effective MBE

even for a full combat template.

As stated above, a CL80 has more health and takes less damage when hit than a CL61 (or other lower CL) player would in the same situation. I expect you know that, so maybe I'm missing your point.

Full combat folks zoom back and forth on Dath with far less concern than I as a CL61 do. Less aggros them to start with, and if they have maskscent it is less likely to be broken. With a more powerful maskscent you can indeed zoom right into the heart of the spawn, even if aggro.

in light of the fact that this is a game, my definition of field work and "fun" tend to minimize aggravation.

it has nothing to do with eliminating "challenge".

asking for armor reclassification, asking for combat-related specials, asking for special resistances or extra skills - developing macros, to an extent - that is a strike against the challenge, in my opinion.

We have armor certs, and I don't see much point wearing it but it would help if I wanted to do so. Noone is asking for specials, or resistances beyond offering alternatives to a blanket CL boost vs getting DEF mods like even Master Dancer gets, and giving extra skills - maskscent bonuses, etc- fit the problem better IMO than just asking for a CL boost while maintaining the challenge (you still have to use these things effectively) and without giving more than is needed (which certainly lessens the challenge).

said with a straight face.

As stated previously, I play solo. I don't have any trouble being a fine MBE due to my CL being 61. The ONLY thing aside from the ramifications for the new expansion the CL80 could possibly be intended for in a BE light is making sampling easier. That's it. I don't think that is either warranted (we're not a combat prof, sorry to disappoint you) or required (I don't have any real trouble getting high-end DNA, and I see no problem with getting REALLY GOOD DNA being mildly difficult.

Have you needed help in this fashion as a CL61 MBE/MBE/Ranger 0030 when getting DNA? Given your previous examples of stuff which is challenging to get DNA from I'm not getting a good feel for were your POV is on this, and you've missed out on expounding on why the two challenges you mentioned before were hard for you or otherwise justify BE being classified as an elite combat prof. Considering you called my experience into question, I'd have expected at least some attention to that.

I could care less about whether asking for help is selfish, as I don't even see the need for that WRT sampling. Hopefully your company would be enough, or the bodyguard duty would be in exchange for a discount on a pet or otherwise rewarding for the combat-type sitting around waiting to take the heat off of you. SOE isn't going to consider that an issue anyway, as they are so big on grouping and interdependence and such nonesense

"Content beats quick fixes any day, and boosting CL is only valid for making life a little easier where I don't think it is called for."

i don't deny that content is needed. for all crafters. i was hanging around the BE POI on talus the other day, and disappointed all over again.

Heh, guess I'll have to look into this - what BE POI on Talus are you refering to? I don't doubt it was disappointing, but I am curious.

it does appear as though a watermark for (related) content is established with this expansion, and while you argue against an additional 19 or 20 combat levels, deem it unsanitary, etc - i find it curious as to why you are so adamant against this proposition when it could, in fact, open up a LOT of new possibilities.

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Could you expound on what possibilities you mean? Are they BE-centric, or just allowing a mixed crafter/combat template to gain access to what is now really combat-only content?

As for the source of my distaste for the MBE=CL54 proposition, I see no basis in need or justification for it. It's an easy out, and is asking for handouts trying to get the most out of having been screwed in the past. It makes more sense to ask for the requirements to be brought in like with other crafters, but that doesn't change an iota of an MBE/MCH template unless BE were to spring from scout (unlikely). Asking for elite combat status is the "I win" solution to propose, and shows either greediness or a complete lack of hope for any future dev attention. I have yet to see anyone pushing this that spec'ed out how BE could be modified to actual fit the mold of an elite combat class - ie, require that samples be taken from critters after they have died, and/or make Cloning require it's own 'pet crafting' exp, and/or allow us to sample for DNA or protein signatures (strength varying based on the level and aggressive status of the critter sampled, and stackable of course) and require a protein component in ALL tissues, etc. Those things would all put us more in harms way than we are now and far more justify (and create a need for) elite combat status. We'd still be kinda odd man out, as our BE skills wouldn't help a whit in a fight beyond the CL boost helping our other actual combat prof, but we'd at least have to face alot more danger than we do now.

Our armor cert is a bone the devs threw us to help with sampling (and possibly the GCW portion to keep from being TOO soft and squishy). Our role in the GCW is non-combat (we don't have to kill a thing, and the challenge of not dying is a feature rather than a bug to be fixed) and doesn't require anything more than getting hustled into a base by your beefy-but-not-so-clever-about-genetics friends, often after the fighting has ended (I've been the not-so-able MCH/MBE in these situations, and my job was to keep my head down, don't draw notice, get into the base after the defense was breached and do my thing). Our split requirements are a far more valid issue to draw attention to than asking for CL80. And finally, the proper tact for the MBE/MCH worried about the quest requirements should show some solidarity and ask for the restriction to be MCH only or allow an MCH/MBE exception; expecting BE to gratuitously become an elite combat class is hardly the best tact and doesn't give us or the devs much credit for intelligence. Ok, so maybe the devs have it coming, but not us...

Ketu

+--------------------------------------->
| Ketu Sringa   //  MCH/MBE/Ranger0030      /) /)     "Fade away
|                                          ( o o )     into the
| near LOST City, Naboo                     = x =      ethereal 
| Lowca                                    m     m     grey..."
+-------------------------------->       ***(=======-