Bio Engineer Archive
Thread: The Effects of the CURB on the BE Profession
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Hylidex
Wed Jan 05, 2005 9:28 am
#1
Pondering the upcoming combat upgrade, I like most players, realize that one of the problems that will be addressed is the lack of content for high-end combatants and the lack of requirements for grouped combatants. The simplest solution to this, and one I think SOE will use, is to adjust the relative strengths of players to creatures to makebetter use of the 800+ creatures already in SWG. This will probably mean that Dathomir will return to high-end status, and that there will be a large number of creatures that can only be soloed by a very strong combatant, can only be approached in groups, can only be attacked by a group of strong combatants, and can only be attacked by a group of strong combatants with top quality strategies and only a moderate probability of success. All of this is speculation, but I believe it to be reasonable speculation.
My own personal view is that it will bring back some of the fun of a year ago when Bolmas were an exciting group hunt and rancors were to be avoided if at all possible.
However, the more I think about this, the more I see a major impact on our profession. Our high-end pets come from high-level creatures. If suddenly the combat-ability gap were widened, we might find ourselves completely unable to sample these creatures. We would not be able to hold a masked scent anywhere near them, and the probability of attack would rise drastically in the current system where relative strength of creature to player increases that probability.
Another impact I see is in our resources. Our profession depends heavily on meat. Already on Gorath, quality meat is nearly impossible to find, and the quantities required by our profession severely limit the suitable creatures to high-level creatures with reasonable meat drops. Obtaining 20K of high quality meat 2 units at a time might be nearly impossible.
This will come at a time when chef foods are likely to have less impact overall, so conceivably their (and by implication our) market will dwindle. Combining these means our costs would skyrocket while demand plummets.
The purpose of this thread is to open up a dialogue exploring these possibilities and possible solutions. I don't want anyone in the sandbox to violate their NDA's, but I would welcome discussion of impact on our profession of such far-reaching changes. Perhaps by discussing it now, some of those impacts can be attenuated before any real damage is done.
Thoughts, anyone?
ArthurDentOnBria
Wed Jan 05, 2005 10:43 am
#2
We need to be real careful about such discussions. I don't mind hearing feedback like this from non-sandbox members as it can help give me some ideas on what's on your minds, but let's not go overboard delving into speculation. I'd also caution sandbox members from participating, because even if you do so carefully, thinking that you're not divulging any privaledged info, someone from SOE might not agree and you could lose your sandbox spot (it's already happened in fact on another forum).
droid327
Wed Jan 05, 2005 11:25 am
#3
heh yeah my first thought was "crap, Hyli posted in the wrong forum, he's a goner now" =)
Hylidex
Wed Jan 05, 2005 4:56 pm
#5
Zadokk wrote:
I could tell you but then I would have to kill you.
LOL. It is a shame that some of our most prolific posters are the very people who can contribute least to this discussion.
On second thought, it isn't a shame at all. Those are the very posters I would like to see guarding our interests out there. Go team!
Meplorium
Wed Jan 05, 2005 5:17 pm
#6
Seeing as I was able to sample fine with a wookiee pre-armor without melee defenses/buffs or any actual fighting (term here is run away) I don't see any protential nerfs as an issue for BEs. It use to be a big hassle before bikes, just finding the animal and then surviving the encounter, but that hasn't been an issue for a long time.
If the kill rate goes down, so does the harvesting of resources like meat or hide. Now this will be a big factor. The work around is an increase in how many resources get harvested per kill. So I think this can be fixed if it is a problem, although the Dev willingness to fix this problem is the real problem. BEs won't even be schematic monkeys without meat.
Hylidex
Wed Jan 05, 2005 6:34 pm
#7
Meplorium wrote:
Seeing as I was able to sample fine with a wookiee pre-armor without melee defenses/buffs or any actual fighting (term here is run away) I don't see any protential nerfs as an issue for BEs. It use to be a big hassle before bikes, just finding the animal and then surviving the encounter, but that hasn't been an issue for a long time.
The problem is that we don't know how much our power will change. I think they will want to make such things as mutant rancors group-only content. I remember when a rancor lair could take out a group of 20 people. Usually people died in only one or two hits. (Actually, this was a lot of fun. You had to use divide and conquer tactics to attack. Disorganized groups died...period. I think a worthwhile goal of the CURB is to bring this level of fun and danger back into the game.)
I can't get near an enraged rancor with mask scent intact at present. The lower the combat level, the more aggressive the creature seems to be. If it drops so much that it is an automatic aggro whenever we get within 70 meters of a mutant rancor, we won't be able to sample them any more. Since BE already requires mask scent and some method of self-healing, plus points to CH or Merchant if one wants to be able to use the pets or sell them on a vendor, I would hate to see a mandatory template also require a master combat profession.
And with the current meat situation on Gorath already, I'm alsovery worried about meat. If people can't harvest as easily as they do now, then meat supply will drop even lower.
I can't help but think I may be overlooking other potential pitfalls, too.
evfields
Wed Jan 05, 2005 7:45 pm
#8
We really don't know. What if the combat balance includes mechanical kits you can buy that triples your maskscent level, or some such thing? Perhaps BEs can make a one time use kit, or since we know so much about creatures get a maskscent bonus?
While I will admit I don't have the utmost trust in the developers, I don't think that they'll completely overlook us.
While combat is being balanced, for all we know creatures will retain their power but have lower aggresiveness.
While I will admit I don't have the utmost trust in the developers, I don't think that they'll completely overlook us.
While combat is being balanced, for all we know creatures will retain their power but have lower aggresiveness.
Message Edited by evfields on 01-05-2005 06:47 PM
Hylidex
Thu Jan 06, 2005 1:04 am
#9
Not being in the sandbox, I felt like it was safe for me to instigate such a discussion. I will repeat that this is NOT a request for sandbox members to violate NDA's. If a sandbox member participates at all, I would expect it to be in the discussions of generallogic and NOT reveal any aspect of the sandbox. I would like to repeat Arthur's warning: if you post here, be VERY careful not to divulge anything you shouldn't.
However, that doesn't prevent me from hoping that the people in the sandbox will read the discussion and keep their eyes out for our concerns while participating.
If it helps, I will add this disclaimer:
I am not part of the sandbox and have no knowledge of anything planned for the CURB itself. Any speculation on my part is just that--speculation. Anyone with conflicting speculations is very welcome in this thread.
Still, many of us have been around when poorly-conceived ideas have gone live. Since speculation is all we have at this point, then that is what we must use. I still see it as imperative for us to think about what unforeseen effects this could have on us as a profession now, while changes in the plans have the least impact possible. After it goes live is almost too late to have any real effect, as evidenced by top five issues in all professions that go unaddressed.
Message Edited by Hylidex on 01-05-2005 02:09 PM
Hylidex
Thu Jan 06, 2005 1:06 am
#10
droid327 wrote:
heh yeah my first thought was "crap, Hyli posted in the wrong forum, he's a goner now" =)
LOL, actually, I'm flattered that you would think I might have qualified for the sandbox in the first place.
I wouldn't have wanted to. After all, how can one be a rabble-rouser with all that secrecy hanging over one's head?
Now, come on, Rabble, Wake Up!
R-ade
Thu Jan 06, 2005 10:37 am
#11
I've been scouting the boards to find any info I can on the CU and really... there is none. At least not any that can give concrete ideas about how it going to pan out. There's a lot of generalities and TONS of speculation and rumor but no hard and fast facts. I'm not at all supprised at this but it does tend to make a dusscussion of this type difficult and full of conjecture. SOE has talked about addressing buffs, food, HAM, Player to creature relationships, and un-numbered other items that have aless direct impact on BE's. All of the "general" areas that are being addressed could have a massive impact on our profession.
Take for instance your example of food getting nerfed, BE Chef tissues wouldn't have any value any more. But if the focus moves from Doc buffs to food our Chef tissuescouldgain in popularity. But either way we'd need to deal with the gatehering quantities of meatissue. And, as they play with the player to creaturerelationships we could find our access to high level creatues for DNA almost cut off unless they increase the relationship between BE's and Rangers so that we have a means of getting close to our favorite pin cushions. Depending on how the CU pans will immensely affect how this disscussion plays out.
The possibilies are endless and I feel that until we have more data from SOE about the direction they are taking we can't come up with viable solutions to the issues thatmay beraised.
Hylidex
Thu Jan 06, 2005 11:00 am
#12
I agree that speculation doesn't always address the correct issues, but it does bring up dimensions of the issues that may not have completely been thought through.
The food is one example. If the price of meat goes up, then the price of BE-tissue-modified food will also have to go up. If, on the other hand, people are not getting as large of payout, the supply of money from the lairs will go down. This would make a hunter less likely to use the food, since it would not be cost-effective. Even if the chef responds by making less expensive foods, it puts us out of business.
Granted, it is speculation, but by doing this sort of speculation, we are covering a variety of scenarios that my not have been thoroughly explored. Granted, there will be a lot of useless tangents, but once in a while we WILL hit upon some very real possibilities.
One thing I depend upon is that the sandbox people will actually read this thread. Even if we are a little bit off in our speculations, it may prompt them to think of REAL situations that follow similar logic while they participate. In so doing, we may head off pitfalls before they actually happen.
I personally am against just waiting to see. We did that with the BE revamp and ended up with pet validation checks and a host of ruined pets with no compensation as a result (just to name one of 50 issues we were left with when we were told that our profession was officially working as intended.) We may not know what is coming, but I don't think that prevents the user base from having some input into the thought that goes into our profession.
If we remain passive, we will be treated as if we are happy with whatever comes.
On the other hand, I'm not trying to get people upset over things that haven't happened. I'm merely trying to get us together to think about it so that we can have some effect while that effect can still change things.
I trust our sandbox people. I know them from the forums and have a great deal of confidence in their abilities. But a handful of people cannot possibly think of everything, no matter how competent they are. A little exercise here can help equip them for the real test. Think of it in the same light as military training. Sure, that dummy doesn't respond in the same way a real target will, but the exercise itself is still useful.
The more heads we put together, the more likely we are to stumble upon the real issues. It is a small investment: a single thread on a single forum--a simple conversation about possibilities and ideas.
If we accomplish nothing, we lose very little. If, on the other hand, we succeed in heading off a potential problem, then a forum discussion is a very small price to pay.
Hylidex
Thu Jan 06, 2005 2:27 pm
#13
It occurred to me that perhaps I have done a poor job of approaching the issue of "speculation." We are speculating, yes, but it is not wild or idle speculation. There will be an upgrade. The goal of the upgrade will be to balance combat professions. SOE has already mentioned that combatants are already doing things they should not, by game design, be able to do.
So let's look at it this way:
You are a game designer. You have a player base crying out for high-end and group content. 95% of your players are fighting 5% of the creatures you have designed. The remainder of the creatures are only attacked for specific quests or resources. All but three or four of your planets have been abandoned in favor of high-level adventure planets. Your players have come up with a variety of creative methods to be able to obtain missions for creatures you had originally designed as group content. The professions are unbalanced. Your choices are fairly limited.
1. You can balance the professions while at the same time writing new high-end content so that the high-level combatants will have something to do.
2. You can balance the professions while deferring the high end content until you have programmers available to create it.
3. You can balance the professions and completely ignore the problem of high-end content.
4. You can take advantage of all the unused code by taking the opportunity provided by the combat rebalance to decrease the overall power of ALL professions to spread them out over all the creatures, so that the existing creatures provide low, medium, and high-level solo content as well as even higher level group content.
Number4 is the least amount of work for the maximum benefit. I have speculated that they will do just that, but I don't think the speculation is completely wild, either. It makes good economic sense, and while there will probably be a loud complaint of "nerf!" initially, once the players start using the new system, they will find that it is more fun than the current one. It spreads players out around the planets, causes different level players to seek out different level missions, and generally provides the maximum gaming enjoyment for the minimum of programmer time. So instead of everyone grinding out the same missions for highest payout, highest xp, or highest challenge, people will start taking tusk cat and bolma missions again.
So what is the highest level creature a high-level combatant will be able to solo? It's little more than a guess, but since the highest CH creature is level 70, I suspect it will be about there, +/- 10. I feel far less confident about this speculation than I do my first one.
As for how it will affect any one profession, one needs to realize that this is a global change. No profession will be left completely untouched. It presents many issuesin economics, experience points, PvP, PvE, resources, and in any profession that directly or indirectly interacts with combat professions. No one committee can foresee all the possible effects. If it could, there would be no need for the sandbox.
So that brings me to one more speculation. I speculate that not even the sandbox participants will be able to foresee all the possible effects. We have as good a sandbox crew as we could ask for, but, like all humans, they lack omniscience. One cannot expect them to think of every possibility.
So that brings me to this thread. How as a community can we best help them cover as many potential issues as possible. We will not be told anything until it is too late to change any but the most pressing of bugs. Since we don't know the specifics, the best we can do is toss around the issues and hope that by touching on something we turn an unforeseen event into something that can be corrected while the impact is minimal.
I am not trying to start a rant. What I'm hoping for is an intellectual discussion of potential issues and pitfalls based on what we know, what we can reasonably predict, and what we can speculate.
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