CUEmu - Thread Posts

Spazzers

Thu Jan 06, 2005 3:32 pm

I'm not in the sandbox so I'm just another speculator.

"The simplest solution to this, and one I think SOE will use, is to adjust the relative strengths of players to creatures to makebetter use of the 800+ creatures already in SWG."

If this were the case than why go through the hassle of adjusting the animals in the first place? This would imply SOE made an error in judgment when they gave creatures the huge wack with the nerf bat way back when. If SOE down grades all the players to come inline with existing nerfed animals all they're really doing is turning back the clock. Wouldn't it have been easier to just un-nerf animals?

"If suddenly the combat-ability gap were widened, we might find ourselves completely unable to sample these creatures. We would not be able to hold a masked scent anywhere near them, and the probability of attack would rise drastically in the current system where relative strength of creature to player increases that probability."

The aggro roll and the break mask scent roll are two seperate items. I remember a time before the "Great Animal Nerf" (stupid noob BE me) when I tried to sample an ancient krayt. Imasked scent and I was able to walk right up to the animal. I hit mysample DNA macro (there wasn't a default macro back then. You had to make your own). I tried this 10 times before the animal got tired of me and bit me in two. Besides, kreetles break my mask infinitely more often than rancors do. I can see me running in fear from kreetles more so than anything else.

"Obtaining 20K of high quality meat 2 units at a time might be nearly impossible."

It's hard to argue with this. The solution is to group with as many scouts as you can and all harvest the same animals. This actually encourages groups which is a good thing. The downside isif it becomes more difficult to obtain animal resources everyone will be effected, not just chefs and bio-engineers. There are people that rely on creature resources as a revenue stream. If it becomes more time consuming, harder, more expensive for the animal resourcer to collect animal products the price will inevitably go up because of the demand. This just puts more stress on BE tissues, chef foods, tailor clothing, armor, doctor buffs...the list goes on. The only solution to that problem is to make the demand decrease. In otherwords make the BE tissues less effective, make food items and doctor buffs less useful, armor less protective...the list goes on.

The real question you have to ask is do these changes make the game more or less fun to play. After all, it is just a game. I can make a very balanced game that suits everyone's needs but if the game isn't fun no one will play it.

Buboopadoo
HOBO Embezzler
A Simple Resource Dealer

A Developer's answer to everything:
"I can't promise to try, but I'll try to try"

Hylidex

Thu Jan 06, 2005 5:07 pm

#15

Spazzers wrote:

I'm not in the sandbox so I'm just another speculator.

YAY! Dialogue. I'm going to follow your color example here to discuss point by point. Hopefully this won't get *too* complicated. I was hoping if I mumbled to myself long enough someone would come out and play. Since this is speculation, and not voting on change proposals, a consensus isn't as important as the conversation.

"The simplest solution to this, and one I think SOE will use, is to adjust the relative strengths of players to creatures to makebetter use of the 800+ creatures already in SWG."

If this were the case than why go through the hassle of adjusting the animals in the first place? This would imply SOE made an error in judgment when they gave creatures the huge wack with the nerf bat way back when.

Odd, but while I recall pet nerfs, I don't recall wild creature nerfs. I don't recall a specific update in which I could suddenly solo things I couldn't before. But even if that were the case, the game is so dynamic that I would call it an adjustment to current circumstances rather than an error in judgment.

If SOE down grades all the players to come inline with existing nerfed animals all they're really doing is turning back the clock. Wouldn't it have been easier to just un-nerf animals?

Actually, it doesn't matter. I was referring to a difference in *relative* strengths, so whether animals are made stronger or players made weaker still ends up with the same result. I considered changing players, since it is a matter of changing the codes on a handful of professions rather than the strengths of 800 creatures. Also, the balance between players is the primary purpose of the upgrade, so player strengths will be adjusted anyway. I am curious, however, what you think they will do. (Look at my four choices in a late message. I think they are all-inclusive, but it is possible I missed something.)

The aggro roll and the break mask scent roll are two seperate items. I remember a time before the "Great Animal Nerf" (stupid noob BE me) when I tried to sample an ancient krayt. Imasked scent and I was able to walk right up to the animal. I hit mysample DNA macro (there wasn't a default macro back then. You had to make your own). I tried this 10 times before the animal got tired of me and bit me in two. Besides, kreetles break my mask infinitely more often than rancors do. I can see me running in fear from kreetles more so than anything else.

I agree that they are not completely parallel, but they seem to relate to one another (kreetles aside--nasty creatures make me want to reintroduce DDT). I remember those days, too, and I can verify what you are saying. (Hehehe, I need to check to see if I'm using the "sample DNA" command or the macro on my toolbar.) I sampled everything I could. But in those days, my mask held against enraged rancors, too. When mask started breaking, it broke more frequently on the higher-level creatures. You bring up another valid issue, though. If there is decrease in player combat ability relative to creatures, then our chance of dying while sampling also rises, regardless of scent.

"Obtaining 20K of high quality meat 2 units at a time might be nearly impossible."

It's hard to argue with this. The solution is to group with as many scouts as you can and all harvest the same animals. This actually encourages groups which is a good thing. The downside isif it becomes more difficult to obtain animal resources everyone will be effected, not just chefs and bio-engineers. There are people that rely on creature resources as a revenue stream. If it becomes more time consuming, harder, more expensive for the animal resourcer to collect animal products the price will inevitably go up because of the demand. This just puts more stress on BE tissues, chef foods, tailor clothing, armor, doctor buffs...the list goes on. The only solution to that problem is to make the demand decrease. In otherwords make the BE tissues less effective, make food items and doctor buffs less useful, armor less protective...the list goes on.

My point exactly--If you make meat prices rise while demand drops, then we are clearly out of the tissue business. Your solution is similar to mine. I thought perhaps to increase the bonus one gets to harvesting the higher one goes up the scout/ranger tree. In other words, increase the harvesting ability, but only increase low level scouts (like most of us) a little while increasing high level rangers a lot. This helps out another broken profession at the same time.

The real question you have to ask is do these changes make the game more or less fun to play. After all, it is just a game. I can make a very balanced game that suits everyone's needs but if the game isn't fun no one will play it.

Oh, in my opinion, moving players down on the mob power scale will add tremendously to the game. I love the idea of the combat upgrade. Honestly, I HOPE my predictions are right. Most of the problems I can think of can be corrected without far-reaching changes, I think. And if we could return to those days when threading one's way through a valley in Dathomir trying to avoid all reds was an exercise in courage, I think the game will return to being as much fun as it was back then. We'll have to readjust our thinking, if I'm right. We might have to go out soloing pikets the way we now solo rancors. But the feeling of accomplishment from killing an enraged rancor lair in a group that would have been sent to the cloning station without the strategies we developed was a thrill I don't often have these days.

And as you implied, the bottom line is quite simply: "Is it fun?"

Beyond the answer to that, really, nothing else matters.

Thanks for joining the conversation. Dialogue is so much easier with the "di" part.

Hylidex Lightstrider
AFS Outfitters, League of all Factions and Species (LAFS)
-6600, 4440, Theed, Naboo, Gorath

Hylidex

Thu Jan 06, 2005 5:29 pm

#16

PlainWhiteSocks wrote:

1. You can balance the professions while at the same time writing new high-end content so that the high-level combatants will have something to do.

2. You can balance the professions while deferring the high end content until you have programmers available to create it.

3. You can balance the professions and completely ignore the problem of high-end content.

4. You can take advantage of all the unused code by taking the opportunity provided by the combat rebalance to decrease the overall power of ALL professions to spread them out over all the creatures, so that the existing creatures provide low, medium, and high-level solo content as well as even higher level group content.

5. You can change the combat mechanics themselve to "balance" the professions so that you don't have to make changes to existing professions or creatures.

YAY--More dialogue. Or is it trialogue, now?

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying here, but it seems like it is either the same as either 3 or 4. I'm not actually addressing the mechanics themselves (although it is certainly on-topic here), but rather the effect of the change on PvE. If it has no effect on PvE, it seems to me to be 3...no additional advanced content. If by changing the mechanics they change the ability to kill creatures, then it would seem to be 4. Whether it is a blanket change in damage or a revamp of each specific attack isn't really what I was looking at. Honestly, I agree that whichever the case, the CURB will be the result of changing each profession in detail, not a blanket nerf.

If they do change the base system for combat will our DNA samples use the same stats. If they do will the mean the same thing?

Oooh. Excellent point. By changing individual mechanics, it may have no effect on how aggressive the creatures are relative to now. Ie. the creatures may not see how much stronger they are. On the other hand, it might change everything entirely. Added to this--presumably CH is part of this upgrade, if only peripherally. If ANY change is made to CH, it is bound to affect us.

I can easily see a combat system change where the DNA we know and love today is not the DNA we will be using. They wouldn't even need to change our crafting or sampling system to make broad sweeping changes. Effects? Well, if they change the way DNA works I for one will have alot of fun trying to figure it all out again.

Again? Does that imply that we now understand it? Honestly, if THAT is the case, I hope it is easier to figure out the system than it was the last time.

I've heard more than one person tell me "If I can't solo XXX then I'm leaving this game after the rebalance".

I've heard the same thing. Honestly, I don't see what difference it makes whether it is a XXX or a YYY as long as it is the same challenge. Beyond that, it is just a sprite. Perhaps they are thinking of lost payouts.

Some people only have fun when they're beating the biggest creatures the game has. We're BE's though. I've seen alot of posts stating that people stick with BE for the pet making aspect even though there are a myriad of problems with pets and the CH class that uses them. I think that in speculating about the CURB we should put our heads together to see that what they change doesn't take the fun out the game.

100% in agreement here (see my last message.)

Honestly, how many people have fun making tissue schematics for a factory? Heck I don't even care when I crit fail on a tissue. Other than I gotta go though the motions of making it again.

Again, I agree. Tissue creation isn't fun, and a critical fail rate of 1% or 91% won't have much effect on how much fun it is. For me, it is just the way I make money--and lately, not even that.

Currently all I need to sample dna is a shot of brandy. If this requirement changes then my enjoyment of the game will decrease in propotion to what is needed.

Wow, I use buffs, brandy, partial armor, Jawa beer, and scent-enhanced clothing...along with a quick trip to the cloning and insurance terminals and a bit of vehicle damage from use. (I'm talking about mutant rancors, which I see as more or less the standard of sampling.)

Meat prices will rise if it's harder to get. If the usefulness of an item stays the same it's price will rise as well. Will this have any big effect on how we have fun in the game?

LOL, a nice question, but I was hoping for your feelings here. If we lose our tissue market entirely, will it change your fun? I think it will mine for two reasons: I would miss the ability to earn money. Pets never have (even before the nerf) paid enough to justify their difficulty. While petmaking remains fun, I'm not sure it has ever paid for its own expenses for me. Also, tissues provide some degree of diversity in our profession. When losing my only sample of reclusive cavern spider queen DNA makes me want to set my lab on fire, I can always go make tissues for a while.

I'm really enjoying myself here. The discussion is getting really good.

Oh, and I'm dying to ask, are those the SAME plain white socks you've worn every day for the past year?

Hylidex Lightstrider
AFS Outfitters, League of all Factions and Species (LAFS)
-6600, 4440, Theed, Naboo, Gorath

Inkanissen

Fri Jan 07, 2005 2:19 am

#17

I suspect that the CR will mean return of pets. Not the way it was in the early days of the game - CH had so much available, and at that time the good resources for top quality weapons/armour/buffs had not spawned yet. However, I think that pets will be much more useful than today.

So many options for changing things, we can only keep guessing. I do think that pet making BE's will get fun new challenges when the CR goes live.

Spazzers

Fri Jan 07, 2005 9:11 am

#18

The "Great Creature Nerf" occurredaround the same time BE was revamped. Creature handler was reworked to eliminate "dabblers." At that time nearly every player had some creature handler skills. Now you're lucky to find a creature handler.

The nerf reclassified wild animals. Medium armor was reduced to light armor or in some cases no armor at all. This was to the horror of creature handlers across the galaxies. Imagine openning your datapad to pull out Fluffy, the animal you worked so hard to track down and tame, only to find his stats have been reduced and his armor is gone, not to mention the animal's damage givenin PvP was reduced while it still received 100% damage from other players. At that time there was speculation one or more developers had it in for creature handlers all along. One developer that will go un-named actually posted that creature handlers were little more than pokemon players. Not a smart move on his part.

The "Great Creature Nerf" did many things to effect the game. It reduced the number of creature handlers dramatically, it made animals little more than a distraction in PvP, and it made wild animals easier to defeat. Enter the age of the solo-group! SOE created their own problems here and the solution they came up with was to make the money split between the group members instead of making animals harder to combat. A single player can still solo high end mobs but they receive less money for doing so which pissed off even more players. Again, not a very smart move.

This is why I would say if the combat revamp brings players in line with wild animals all they are really doing is turning back the clock. In that light SOE would have pissed off a ton of players for no reason at all.

The biggest factor I can see effecting bio-engineers, and nearly every crafting profession out there, will be the availability of creature resources. If the combat upgrade makes animals harder to combat, as I believe they should,I can only hope they make the amount of resources dropped by animals higher. The demand on creature resources is already insane. If the amount of time it takes to harvest those resources increases the stress on the demand will only increase which will drive up prices. It would only be a matter of time before chef foods and BE tailored products become so expensive many players won't be able to afford them, not to mention high-end pet meds. We will all be reduced to fisherpeople which is boring as all heck but at least the fish don't kill you. Using this senarioI don't think it adds a lot of fun to a video game if you ask me.

Buboopadoo
HOBO Embezzler
A Simple Resource Dealer

A Developer's answer to everything:
"I can't promise to try, but I'll try to try"

Hylidex

Fri Jan 07, 2005 10:53 am

#19

So, Spazzers, do you believe that the CURB will not bring players in line with creatures, then?

The funny thing is that during the time period you mention, I had more CH skills than I have now, and I didn't notice. I think this must be because I was then, and still am, essentially a hunter when it comes to combat. Back then, I relied heavily on my pets for combat, and mainly fought wild creatues. If wild creatures and pets were scaled back at the same time, I wouldn't notice, since I was mainly pitting one against the other.

From my own person, I got my first set of kinetic-resist composite armor about the same time, and I was climbing up the pistoleer ranks. I attributed the easier kills to that.

The sad thing is that PvE combat was much more fun back then. There were some things I KNEW not to tangle with. Entering a cave filled with red dots was EXCITING.

The creature resource issue has severely damaged our profession already. Professions which could outbit us for meat did so, and when that resulted in either higher prices or empty vendors, the era of BE alts and schematic monkeys began. Even a change in the stats required doesn't change the fact that people begin to think that any meat is worth 50 cpu or more. If a hunter can get 200 cpu for avian meat, he's not going to hunt for us for 20 cpu. If meat quantities decrease overall, the meat prices will just go higher.

I see two solutions to this, but there very well may be more:

1. Decrease the amount of meat required for BE tissues.

2. Make meat more available.

Personally, I like the second option better than the first, although it really doesn't address the issue as it stands now. To me, a good solution would be to increase the increase in amount of meat dropped per creature per level of harvesting skill. In other words, increase the effect of harvesting skill on the resources dropped.

I'll make up some numbers to demonstrate:

The Troubled Tribble currently drops 2 units of Corellian Putrid Meat for a novice scout. A master ranger can harvest 50 units from the same creature. After the CURB, since Troubled Tribbles are now the Terrors of Tyrenia, and much harder to kill, a novice scout can now harvest 3 units (a 50% increase), but a master ranger can harvest 250 (a 500% increase). Creature harvesting levels between novice scout and master ranger could be interpolated accordingly.

While the numbers themselves are a little wild, they demonstrate the point. Wouldn't it be nice to revitalize the master ranger profession while preventing damage to our own?

The rangers could get love in another area, too. If the chance of maintaining mask decreases, why not make the chance that Ranger-applied Camouflage would protect you greater? Allow it to enhance mask in a way that gets stacked with food and clothing enhancements. Allow it to have an effect on creature sampling that decreases the chance that the creature will aggro while sampling. I honestly wouldn't mind being dependant on rangers for sampling high-level creatures.

Granted, this is not a fully fleshed-out idea, but brainstorming is what the thread is for

.

Hylidex Lightstrider
AFS Outfitters, League of all Factions and Species (LAFS)
-6600, 4440, Theed, Naboo, Gorath

Hylidex

Fri Jan 07, 2005 10:54 am

#20

And one more potential issue--four words:

Reclusive Cavern Spider Queen

Hylidex Lightstrider
AFS Outfitters, League of all Factions and Species (LAFS)
-6600, 4440, Theed, Naboo, Gorath

Kivrin

Fri Jan 07, 2005 11:29 am

#21

I'm also curious how it would affect rogue creature spawn rates. If in fact a Seething Bol becomes the new solo target, and savage quenkers become a threat in groups of 3 or more, how will it affect people who currently live on Dantooine? What if your house now was surrounded by randomly spawning rancors? Tough commute.

- C A N C E L L E D -
kivrin://m.pikeman.bio-engineer/~ahazi
dantooine.MO ['vendor'] = { 100, 2222 }; /* meds and supplies */

Spazzers

Fri Jan 07, 2005 11:46 am

#22

Yes I do believe players will become more in-line with creatures but I don't believe that is the driver. It will end up being an indirect result of the upgrade. What is more likely to happen, some combatants will find they do better against animals while others will find they do worse. For instance a swordsman that can take on almost anything now may not do as well against animals after the upgrade only because they have been brought in line with other combatants, not because animals are weak.

If you remember the time of three graul maulers you remember the "Great Creature Nerf." Many animals that had armor don't now. Many of the animal resists changed. The rock beetle is now just a yellow kreetle and the greater sludge panther is just another cat. I'll see if I can dig up a link to the changes for those that are interested.

On a side note, and something that always struck me as odd, creature handlers of all the professions was the first to be re-worked in the name of combat balance. After all the wildanimals were re-adjusted the developers, in their infinite wisdom, decided chef food buffs needed to be increased as well as doctor buffs. Combine weak wild mobs with ultra buffs and you have solo groups. Instead of balancing the system the developers just threw it more and more out of wack. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out either. This is the main reason I fear for the upgrade and why many people say the upgrade will make or break the game.

I also agree the game was a lot more exciting back in those earlydays. I can remember getting off the shuttle on Lok and actually being afraid for my little blue Rodian. Now it's another stroll in the park. In my mind the magic of the game has been nerfed to the point of non-existance. It may have been more prudent for the developers to concentrate on content instead of re-working the professions time and time again.

I'm all for making Ranger a viable profession. They are great to have if you're looking for a specific animal but aside from that Ranger is just a slightly glorified scout. If you know where to find rancors and you have jawa beer and mask scent clothes you really don't need ranger skills at all. Rangers should be the animal resourcers for the entire galaxy. In a sense it is the Rangers that should drive the market price for animal resources. Hopefully that sort of change will be included in the upgrade.

Buboopadoo
HOBO Embezzler
A Simple Resource Dealer

A Developer's answer to everything:
"I can't promise to try, but I'll try to try"

ArthurDentOnBria

Fri Jan 07, 2005 2:51 pm

#23

Hahaha, actually, this was my original concept when I "retired" from my shop in Corellia and moved out in the middle of nowhere on Dantooine last fall. I just loved the fact that my shop was now surrounded by creatures that could 1-hit kill you and db you as well, lol. I made sure I had a med vendor that was fully stocked

Kivrin wrote:
I'm also curious how it would affect rogue creature spawn rates. If in fact a Seething Bol becomes the new solo target, and savage quenkers become a threat in groups of 3 or more, how will it affect people who currently live on Dantooine? What if your house now was surrounded by randomly spawning rancors? Tough commute.

ArthurDent - former Bio Engineer, Tailor, and Droid Engineer
Account cancelled 7/8/05 due to game breaking bugs in these professions that have been neglected for FAR too long. Last day July 27 2005
custom tailoring and droid orders welcome. "making Evil products since July 2003"
Achiever: 80%, Explorer: 60%, Socializer: 46%, Killa 13%

PlainWhiteSocks

Fri Jan 07, 2005 3:01 pm

#24

Hylidex wrote:

PlainWhiteSocks wrote:
1. You can balance the professions while at the same time writing new high-end content so that the high-level combatants will have something to do.
2. You can balance the professions while deferring the high end content until you have programmers available to create it.
3. You can balance the professions and completely ignore the problem of high-end content.
4. You can take advantage of all the unused code by taking the opportunity provided by the combat rebalance to decrease the overall power of ALL professions to spread them out over all the creatures, so that the existing creatures provide low, medium, and high-level solo content as well as even higher level group content.

5. You can change the combat mechanics themselve to "balance" the professions so that you don't have to make changes to existing professions or creatures.

YAY--More dialogue. Or is it trialogue, now?
I'm not sure I understand what you are saying here, but it seems like it is either the same as either 3 or 4. I'm not actually addressing the mechanics themselves (although it is certainly on-topic here), but rather the effect of the change on PvE. If it has no effect on PvE, it seems to me to be 3...no additional advanced content. If by changing the mechanics they change the ability to kill creatures, then it would seem to be 4. Whether it is a blanket change in damage or a revamp of each specific attack isn't really what I was looking at. Honestly, I agree that whichever the case, the CURB will be the result of changing each profession in detail, not a blanket nerf.

I've heard the same thing. Honestly, I don't see what difference it makes whether it is a XXX or a YYY as long as it is the same challenge. Beyond that, it is just a sprite. Perhaps they are thinking of lost payouts.

Lost payout could translate into less money in the ecconmy overall. A good thing I think.

Some people only have fun when they're beating the biggest creatures the game has. We're BE's though. I've seen alot of posts stating that people stick with BE for the pet making aspect even though there are a myriad of problems with pets and the CH class that uses them. I think that in speculating about the CURB we should put our heads together to see that what they change doesn't take the fun out the game.
100% in agreement here (see my last message.)

Honestly, how many people have fun making tissue schematics for a factory? Heck I don't even care when I crit fail on a tissue. Other than I gotta go though the motions of making it again.
Again, I agree. Tissue creation isn't fun, and a critical fail rate of 1% or 91% won't have much effect on how much fun it is. For me, it is just the way I make money--and lately, not even that.
Currently all I need to sample dna is a shot of brandy. If this requirement changes then my enjoyment of the game will decrease in propotion to what is needed.
Wow, I use buffs, brandy, partial armor, Jawa beer, and scent-enhanced clothing...along with a quick trip to the cloning and insurance terminals and a bit of vehicle damage from use. (I'm talking about mutant rancors, which I see as more or less the standard of sampling.)

I've been very very very very (and very even) lucky in the MR sampling thing. They rarely broke mask scent when I just had me and my clothes. If I use jawa beer it's almost like I'm invisible. Still lots of failures though. Oh yeah I didn't reall ycount my mask scent clothes. I've been wearing them so long usually forget I have them.

Meat prices will rise if it's harder to get. If the usefulness of an item stays the same it's price will rise as well. Will this have any big effect on how we have fun in the game?

LOL, a nice question, but I was hoping for your feelings here. If we lose our tissue market entirely, will it change your fun? I think it will mine for two reasons: I would miss the ability to earn money. Pets never have (even before the nerf) paid enough to justify their difficulty. While petmaking remains fun, I'm not sure it has ever paid for its own expenses for me. Also, tissues provide some degree of diversity in our profession. When losing my only sample of reclusive cavern spider queen DNA makes me want to set my lab on fire, I can always go make tissues for a while.
I'm really enjoying myself here. The discussion is getting really good.

hmmm.... my fellings..... well, since I get little or no enjoyment from making tissues, I think not selling many of them wouldn't change my outlook on the game much at all. On the other hand getting that 80units of meat for a razorcat might be interesting in the future.

Oh, and I'm dying to ask, are those the SAME plain white socks you've worn every day for the past year?

hmmmmm well, I've had the Plain White Socks online handle since 1989. I guess you could say I've had on the same white socks for 16 years. (iewwww)

Corbis
Kauri
Ex-Master Bio-Engineer

Drocyc

Fri Jan 07, 2005 3:05 pm

#25

what you could do, is drop all or most your combat skills and pick up master ranger

that way you can use camo kits and not be detected by pretty much any creature almost every time.

Drocyc
(gggggggggggggggxnnnnnnnwnnnnnnnxggggggggggggggg)

60% Of The Time, I Win Everytime!

Meplorium

Fri Jan 07, 2005 5:19 pm

#26

Remember when Janta's had medium armor and we had none?

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Bio Engineer Archive

Thread: The Effects of the CURB on the BE Profession