Bio Engineer Archive
Thread: I found what seems to be up with nocious kahmurrith dna
You know - all the pets that are made now, if nerfed, will likely suffer the same fate as the old probot, and I for one, still have my 3k ham 127-135 damage tin buddy. So, if the same for follows, we may see a bunch of pre-nerf pets being lawded as godly and sacred beasts.
Except that originally probots couldn't be repaired, once they were damaged that was it. The whole reason why pre-nerf probots are so rare now is because most of them have decayed and vanished. However pets don't suffer from such a short lifespan. However look at what happened to the baby dna clone pets, they didn't decay at all back then leading to them all reverting to normal stats as the wild ones when they were next called. It's possible that they will grandfather them, but is a good business reputation worth risking on such a gamble just because you want to make as much money as possible?
KillerCRS
There is no armor. Armor makes a big difference. My bol with good stats, but no armor handles hurtons, but gets beat up. My gurreck with similar stats and armor handles them and takes 1/5th the damage. These pets are mid 20s in level btw. In my opinion its all about the armor + kinetic resist combo. If either one is missing, its a nice pet, but by no means godly regardless of CL.
Chimera
Tal-N posted nothing. All he saidis "Bug X exsists. Somehow I did it [insert vague comments as to how he did it here]." I see no great armor + good kinetic pets being made. I see nice low CL pets being made. I made some. But I see no armor+kinetic godliness. Which is what a lot of folks are claiming.
I have one of these "so-called" great pets. According to the BE that made it, it was made with Burrower dna, not kahmurith.Lets face facts. Everyone wants these pets. I will admit it.I want more of these pets. There's good money in it for those that know how to make them. As such its in their best interest to keep that information/formula to themselves. Less people know = more $$ for them.
This is why I think the Kahmurrith situation is just a smoke screen. This is just a case of exageration. Go ahead fix the kahmurith bug. All youre going to do is weaken CL10 pets with good kinetic resist. If you think youre going to get rid of the mid-level 2/2/x/x, 3/2/x/x, 4/x/x/x armor+kinetic ubertanks dabblers use, its going to be a long wait.
That's the problem AgeOldMyth...it's the way the system is calculateing the CL. I don't believe it is entirley the Kahm DNA (although it does seem worse than others) at fault here. Things are out of whack now but as soon as the Dev's come back from vacation thing we be righted.
AgeOldMyth wrote:
KillerCRS
There is no armor. Armor makes a big difference. My bol with good stats, but no armor handles hurtons, but gets beat up. My gurreck with similar stats and armor handles them and takes 1/5th the damage. These pets are mid 20s in level btw. In my opinion its all about the armor + kinetic resist combo. If either one is missing, its a nice pet, but by no means godly regardless of CL.
Chimera
Tal-N posted nothing. All he saidis "Bug X exsists. Somehow I did it [insert vague comments as to how he did it here]." I see no great armor + good kinetic pets being made. I see nice low CL pets being made. I made some. But I see no armor+kinetic godliness. Which is what a lot of folks are claiming.
I have one of these "so-called" great pets. According to the BE that made it, it was made with Burrower dna, not kahmurith.Lets face facts. Everyone wants these pets. I will admit it.I want more of these pets. There's good money in it for those that know how to make them. As such its in their best interest to keep that information/formula to themselves. Less people know = more $$ for them.
This is why I think the Kahmurrith situation is just a smoke screen. This is just a case of exageration. Go ahead fix the kahmurith bug. All youre going to do is weaken CL10 pets with good kinetic resist. If you think youre going to get rid of the mid-level 2/2/x/x, 3/2/x/x, 4/x/x/x armor+kinetic ubertanks dabblers use, its going to be a long wait.
When you make a claim, you must postevidence to back it up. Otherwise, its just an opinion and while it should be respected, its not more valid than anyone elses opinion and shouldnt be held in higher regard.Those are nice pics the poster posted, but all they show is that the pets are BE-MADE. With only
hisword and no formula to back it up they prove nothing. Im sorry, but someones word, no matter how reputable the person may be, is not sufficient evidence.
That said, I respect all your opinions on the Kahmurrith Issue.
Here is what is going on in my opinion. The dna has light armor and zero resists. As you clone down and lose fortitude, the game converts armor/no resists into regular resists using some default alog for converting effectives. You see this when you go the other direction too...If you have 30% on an effective armor and the creature gains armor by pumping up fort, then you will lose that 30% as you go up to light armor.
The idea here is that armor with zero resists is 50% damage reduction unless they have armor piercing. The game credits the creature for having some resistance when it strips the armor rating, and it converts it to normal effective armor. Since noc kamiruth is 0% across the board, everything gets effective armor.
Your idea that losing armor may drop the CL alot is a good one. There also may be something going on with having special protections upping CL, and having vulns dropping CL. It will take some testing.
So I predict any creature with effective armor can be converted by sucessive generations down to a globally resistant creature.
Even though I could make this kind of creature, I don't because it is not profitable to do so. 20 minutes of noob questions and 3K credits payment after tiresome haggling simply isn't worth the bother of multigenerational cloning experiments. I find by not marketing any NCH pets at all, all those struggling BE's short of master have something to do, and CH's also have something to do, and I am much happier dealing with knowledgable master creature handlers. Why go through this headache when you can move a supurb CL70 to a greatful MCH for 500K?
RamhornSWG wrote:
Lets say the best non-ch pet BE is:
10k ham NO ARMOR and 40% resists.
Regardless of the lvl 1-10 any player can control one
Aye that is possible with legitament dna, around Gen 4 and gen 5(meaning you already have go though a good 125 samples of dna by now) i finally stoped tring with a CL 11 Bol 9k ham 43% kin resistance, 20% energy res, dmg was avg 150 with stun and dizzy, im sure that if i breed off the specials first it would have surely went past the cl.
ill post a screeny when i get home of yesterdays experimentation feild trip.
Ok, i was doing some experiment last night basically trying to determine the extent of what the bug is doing, oh and just so everyone knows it's not just nocious dna but species who have resistances that actually 'behave' like armor and have armor itself. Let me explain. Since armor knocks off a base value of 50% from non armor piercing attacks then I think the cloning system is getting confused between the resistances and what armor is. I can't put an exact explaination on it cause personally I didn't program this in the first place. Blingbling claims that it's only kicking in at 40% for the first generation, this is incorrect. The reason though that you don't see it happening for the 1st generation hiting 49% is because of maths, since the following generations of clones aren't nicely rounded then you'll find on the first gen when you experiment the fortitude hits around 460, narurally when you put even one more point in it instantly goes over the 500 mark. However in subsequent generations because of how the stats are being migrated within the clones you find it easier and eaiser to get closer to 500 without going over it.
Now i dunno if you want to call the dna bugged, personally I'd call the system itself bugged in the calculations and the dna of this nature is simply not being calculated properly for some reason. Either way there a fixed pattern you need to produce super clones in the first generation using dna such as this. I figure almost everyone knows how to make these clones anyway, the cat is out of the bag so I figure we'd best not hide the facts because there is such an exact means of doing this that it's no wonder the playtesters missed it.
There is to my knowledge currently two species which have even all around protection to damages plus armor. These are the nocious kahmurrtih and the Merek deathshead. In both cases you'll find when your experimenting on them they start around 30% and can rise up to 49% before they gain the armor. In the case of the merek deaths head you can experiment further and end up with the light armor and 10% to everything. Dna from these two known species goes into phychique, prowess and agression. These are the 3 main slots for resistances obviously, you then need to put dna into mental and psych which does NOT have armor. I'm still investing gating this but it seems if armor is in these slots then it throws the whole thing off and you get a perfectly normal clone. Later on I'm going to see if its armor itself causing bizarre results but certainly these kinds of species make it so much clearer.
Next what you do is experiment on the HAM ONLY, do NOT push fortitude over 500 because the end result will be perfectly normal for it's CL rating. Because of this very exact nature of how to use this dna I'd say it is not really possible to accidently make clones like this for the first generation, I'm sure it can happen given some luck but it's unlikely.The bug itself once created throws off all additionalclones, the bug repeats itself perfectly as if the clone too had armor however it does not. You might say it contains the armor 'gene' and that is the root of the problem. I'll give you some examples of what I made last night.
Deaths head / Deaths head / Flesh eatting Chuba / Flesh eatting Chuba / Deaths Head
The end result was a CL9 clone with around 8k of HAM and hitting for around 330 damage. 46% to everything but it stun vulnerable, 1st generation.
...
Deaths head / Deaths head / pouncing jax / pouncing jax / Deaths head
The jax actually has 15% blast protection and stun vulnerability. The result was the same as expected. CL11,around 8k of HAM, 300 points of damage. This time it was 42% to everything but stun. The blast resistances didnt make a single bit of difference, maybe because it was too low to be calculated in I haven't investigated that yet. Next I generationationalized it. Please note the jax is CL13, higher than the chuba.
...
clone 1st gen / clone 1st gen / Flesh eatting chuba / Flesh eatting chuba / clone 1st gen
Result was CL5, 6k of HAM and 43% to everything but stun. Once again I inbred this clone and actually recieved a shock. I used the squall body for this.
...
clone 2nd gen / clone 2nd gen / Eldar squall / Eldar squall / clone 2nd gen
CL1!! Yeah, i know. We thought the minimum was CL2 but here I had a CL1 squall with 5k of HAM. I'm not sure if it's because I used squall dna and stuck it into a squll body but that seems a bit stupid to me unless there's some kind of additional CL discount for using 'compatible' dna into certain bodies. The damage was around 120 at this point I think.
The thing to note here is that the dna in these two slots appears to be all that determines the CL ratings, what goes into the ones that effect the resistances and the HAM has almost no bearing on what the final CL of the clone is. That is why the chuba dna gave me something around it's level while the CL13 Jax gave me something around its level. With a minor discount to the CL of course.
I did a test case with higher end dna. Using this 3rd gen dna with barkmite burrower dna. The result was something of CL41 with armor and some pittiful resistances before I even experimented. Resistances that actually we around 4 and 6 which is nearly the amount of generations the dna had gone through.
What I'm going to investigate tonight is using other dna in those slots, ones without armor to see if it's the resistances that are repairing the calculations or the armor in the dna which goes into slots 3 and 4.
Just wanted to touch base again with this thread.
Every BE should be happy with the effort Tal-N is making to understand how the system works and if anything is out of line.
With that being said, everyone needs to sit down and take a deep breath. Regardless if the system is working as intended or if there is a flaw in the code, the non-ch pets being created have as much tanking value as a pre-nerf probot.
Both the pre-nerf probot and a 10k ham creature with no armor have similar tanking abilites and both decay over time.
Speaking from experience an unbalanced pet was the webmaster at 10k ham med armor and 50% resists. A player could easily tank anything in the game.
These non-ch pets would allow a player some modest protection and tanking ability for mid-low range creatures.
I am looking forward to the offical devs response when they return from the holiday vacation 
Interested to see if a flawed and bugged profession code was released on the live servers or if this is all part of a master combat plan where droids will become stronger in the near future.
Ramhorn
Once Master of many , Currently Master of none
Nice work Tal...you continue to amaze me... and I've been here since day 1. So kudos to you.
Not to rain on the parade...but I would expect our BE Rep here to say something on this thread...like "I'll check into this." or something.
I have not had time to muck around with the new system as my home PC took a nose dive and the holidays recently... so I am relying on all of you to do the testing to see what will and won't work.
It would also be nice for the Devs / or BE Rep to come out and say " This is a bug and we are going to fix it. " Lacking that... BEs will get hit with the Nerf bat after finally able to actually do some fun things with the profession.
If this is an "official" bug, it reminds me of when we could sample our own clones for full DNA... or sample Kimos to get uber DNA for making other critters. Is this new bug more damaging to the 'world' than those?
Thanks again...and I'll continue to read up on the various finding from Tal and Sumo.
(Side note: I need to find a listing of DNA which lists what stats it has..... anyone got one?! PM me if you do please.)