Bio Engineer Archive
Thread: Schematics!?!?!
GFoyle
Thu Jul 01, 2004 3:52 pm
#79
OK - I'm tryingto start up my consultancy business based on a reasonable margin, 250cr/unit -just underthe profit I make on a case of BSN's.
Results so far have not been encouraging.
It turns out that the "going rate" for these schematics, on Chilastra at least, is10-20cr/unit..........
The problem is NOT the people who sell schematics as an alternative to making items and charge a price for them based on the profitif they were to make and sell the item.
The problem is the people who never intended tomake items, don't have a clear idea of the game economy and are content to flog schematics at a pittance for thier immediate needs. Presumablythis isa sideline to thier primary business of making pets and selling resources - which is a darn sight more profitable than trying to make and sell tissues and addatives now.
Ultimately what has happened is this:
BE is a fun profession. People mainly do it for fun rather than cash. Making money is really just a sideline for the majority of BE's. (I myself was pleasantly surprised when I found I could make money at it - but cash was never the primary objective).
Chef mainly consists of grinding and, lets face it, is not the most wildly exciting profession in the game. People take it up primarily to make cash. Grinding your way up to master requires dedication and the eventual cash needs to match that dedication.
Look at those 2 distinctive groups and you can see why food sells for a fortune and addatives now barely sell at a profit!
TBH I can't see any way round this. There is a 'soft core' of BE's quite happy to sell addatives and schematics at just over 'break even point' to supply just enough cash to keep themselves in munchies and a small house. Meanwhile the 'hard core' of chefs are out to make as much money as possible and are quite happy to drive the addative suppliers down to the 'break even point' in the pursuit of yet higher profits.
In SWG's "free market" I can't see any way of stopping this - you can't stop people selling stuff stupidly cheaply.
For my own part I'll continue to offer my schematics at 250K per (you never know, I may yet meet a chef who isn't determined to wring out every last cred). Addatives and tissues I'm not making at all, I have a stock of them that won't shift, primarily because I won't sell them for less than they cost to make (although I may yet end up doing that just to free up some space).
My primarymoney-makeris now harvesting and selling resources...................
furrycat
Thu Jul 01, 2004 7:20 pm
#80
Quoth Okie_Sin,
> [a load of sense]
Hot damn I don't know who gave you 1 star for saying that. Absolutely right. If you sell a schematic for X credits where X is the profit you would expect to make from selling the same number of crates then it hurts no one. Limiting the number of items the schematic can produce takes care of letting you hit the same profit margin while selling for less money.
This isn't like selling the source code to a software program, as someone suggested. If I sell you my source code you can make my program but also make your own based on it; there is that risk. But the same doesn't apply to a BSN schematic. The chef can only churn out the stuff in that one schematic. He can't screw you over by modifiying it and making more stuff for free later.
Agreed, giving away schematics is making a mockery of the hard work BEs put into mastering the profession. Sellings schematics for cheap is undercutting everyone for no one's benefit. Selling schematics for a price comparable with the profit you would make from actually doing the run of crates, on the other hand, can only be sensible. Far from "running a business into the ground" it's an ideal way to make money. The same profit for five minutes' work as for several hours' or not days' worth makes perfect business sense.
> [a load of sense]
Hot damn I don't know who gave you 1 star for saying that. Absolutely right. If you sell a schematic for X credits where X is the profit you would expect to make from selling the same number of crates then it hurts no one. Limiting the number of items the schematic can produce takes care of letting you hit the same profit margin while selling for less money.
This isn't like selling the source code to a software program, as someone suggested. If I sell you my source code you can make my program but also make your own based on it; there is that risk. But the same doesn't apply to a BSN schematic. The chef can only churn out the stuff in that one schematic. He can't screw you over by modifiying it and making more stuff for free later.
Agreed, giving away schematics is making a mockery of the hard work BEs put into mastering the profession. Sellings schematics for cheap is undercutting everyone for no one's benefit. Selling schematics for a price comparable with the profit you would make from actually doing the run of crates, on the other hand, can only be sensible. Far from "running a business into the ground" it's an ideal way to make money. The same profit for five minutes' work as for several hours' or not days' worth makes perfect business sense.
P__Day
Thu Jul 01, 2004 8:41 pm
#81
What be's need to think about is : Who has the power? do you need chefs the most or do chefs need you? Its the same thing i did with my smuggler, i have combat skills on him making it possible to run 30k missions on dant in 2 minutesi can slice the terminal for a 25% increase in the payout, and run 2 missions in 5 minutes making around 80k. So i have skills i can support myself on i dont need to slice for the public, they need me to slice. So i started charginga higher price. BE's can do the same with chefs the public is addicted to BE brandy and canapee and different foods, a chef unable to stock them do not make money its that simple.Be's can hit them where they feel it, in the bank by refusing to supply the additives or taking up chef themselves and undercuttheexisting chefs. Me BE can support himself on Pet sales alone, i sell CL10 mounts at 6k pr at the bazar selling about 10 pr day thats 420k and as i dont have anybig expences except meat for additives 420k pr week is plenty. And after 3 weeks of not having additives a chef will buy them at insane prices like docs buy good avian for 100 cpu after there has been only crappy avian for a month or more. So where is the problem have a meeting decide amongst yourselves how much to charge for additives, there will always be undercutters but they to relize after a while that its not worth it.
Kevie
Thu Jul 01, 2004 9:01 pm
#82
Cephalo wrote:
Let me be clear that I would never suggest that anyone GIVE schematics away for free. I'm just saying that if you subtract the cost of gathering and buying the resources, which happens to be most of the cost, you are left with a fair price for the schematic that cuts into NOBODY's business. Certainly you get more net credits from goods you make from scratch, but that does not mean you make more *profit*. Making 100k creds for 10 minutes of work is nothing but profit! If you want to make major profit, don't refuse to make schematics, refuse to gather resources! Make him use HIS time, and HIS storage, and HIS credits and eliminate your overhead ENTIRELY. He's not insulting your honor by asking for a reasonably priced schematic, he's doing you a favor!
i'm sorry but this argument doesn't hold water........
do you sell schematics for food to random people that collected the resources themselves?
no, you don't.... and if people asked you to, you would be highly upset i assure you
welcome to the daily life of a master BE
i'm sorry but i picked up BE for a PROFESSION and it's not my job to run around giving away schematics for however much i would be making when i can go out, collect all the resources myself, and sell a finished product
it may be JUST a game, but i take pride in my work, and i take pride when i churn out 118's or 87's (still working on those 88's!!) for people and undercut prices for those loyal chefs who have never asked me for schematics at all
i take the same pride in every pet i make, and i LOVE what i do, and i love having a reputation as one of the best BE's on my server
i have wanted to give up BE for a long time now so that i can work on my pistol skills and not feel so helpless in combat, but i get requests constantly for more pets, and a few chefs are constantly needing supplements from me
Message Edited by Kevie on 07-03-2004 10:42 PM
Bracci
Thu Jul 01, 2004 9:47 pm
#83
P__Day wrote:What be's need to think about is : Who has the power? do you need chefs the most or do chefs need you? Its the same thing i did with my smuggler, i have combat skills on him making it possible to run 30k missions on dant in 2 minutes i can slice the terminal for a 25% increase in the payout, and run 2 missions in 5 minutes making around 80k. So i have skills i can support myself on i dont need to slice for the public, they need me to slice. So i started charging a higher price. BE's can do the same with chefs the public is addicted to BE brandy and canapee and different foods, a chef unable to stock them do not make money its that simple. Be's can hit them where they feel it, in the bank by refusing to supply the additives or taking up chef themselves and undercut the existing chefs. Me BE can support himself on Pet sales alone, i sell CL10 mounts at 6k pr at the bazar selling about 10 pr day thats 420k and as i dont have any big expences except meat for additives 420k pr week is plenty. And after 3 weeks of not having additives a chef will buy them at insane prices like docs buy good avian for 100 cpu after there has been only crappy avian for a month or more. So where is the problem have a meeting decide amongst yourselves how much to charge for additives, there will always be undercutters but they to relize after a while that its not worth it.
This is not true. We don't have the power as a profession. Many people have chosen Chef as a profession to make money, and as such, have purchased an alternate account to grind the BE components. Some of these are the same people selling schematics for cheap. I personally pay 12.5 cpu for meat. I'll pay a little more for the really uber stuff that's hard to get (can anyone say tat avian?). If you figure 12.5cpu for 20k meat and 2.1 cpu for 60k flora (what I'm currently paying a farmer for since I don't have enough lots) for one factory run of BSNs that's 376k. Since I sell one factory run at 1.2 million (30k per crate) that's 824k profit per schematic.
I guess I'm a hypocrit though, since I collect a lot of the meat with my alternate account (tka/merchant/ranger).
However, I saw a chef asking in coronet for a BE who was online. I was logged in as my alt and sent her a tell. When she requested a schematic she said it was worth about 50k. That's a loss of profit of 94%! Her response to my price was "BUT IT'S AN ALT ACCOUNT - IT'S NOT SUPPOSED TO MAKE MONEY!". When I explained that the alt was the hunter and the main was the doctor/be, she /addignored me and continued her coronet spam.
Interesting side note - this was 4 days after I created my alt. The alt had only been buffed by 2 people - myself and one doctor with slightly better bivoli who could override my main's buff application. The alt got a tell right after this incident from someone I've never heard of. When I asked who they were, they said that they'd buffed me before. When I said "no, this character has been buffed by 2 people and you're not one of them", the response came back "you're just being difficult eh? fine. welcome to my ignore list". I got kind of a kick out of it since they were blatantly lying (and they had asked what faction I was and what PA I was in) and they got caught right in it. I suspect a greifing bounty or a vendor ban was attempting to be applied to me and my alt, but they got nothing out of me
Biytor
Fri Jul 02, 2004 12:25 am
#84
Selling your manufactoring practices again. As I stated earlier thats not a good way to do bussiness. You put the time, effort, and all the drugery of making this work only to sell it for pennies on the dollor. Hope you never run a company, you'd run it into the ground with attiude you have here about schematics and cause alot of people to head to ESC because of it.
Cephalo wrote:
Let me be clear that I would never suggest that anyone GIVE schematics away for free. I'm just saying that if you subtract the cost of gathering and buying the resources, which happens to be most of the cost, you are left with a fair price for the schematic that cuts into NOBODY's business. Certainly you get more net credits from goods you make from scratch, but that does not mean you make more *profit*. Making 100k creds for 10 minutes of work is nothing but profit! If you want to make major profit, don't refuse to make schematics, refuse to gather resources! Make him use HIS time, and HIS storage, and HIS credits and eliminate your overhead ENTIRELY. He's not insulting your honor by asking for a reasonably priced schematic, he's doing you a favor!
JayceMilam
Fri Jul 02, 2004 7:39 am
#85
You know I honestly wish I had never started this thread ... all this talk about money and how much a schematic should be worth. How much money this sells for or that sells for. This be is undercutting that one or so and so is charging too much or too little, selling for under his own cost. Whatever!!!!! I never cared how much a schematic should, would or could be worth. Someone could offer me 10 million I wouldn't sell it. I don't know if so many of people have missed the point or just that they care about credits more. I am going to try and explain it one more time. I DO NOT CARE ABOUT THE CREDITS!!!! For me a schematic represents the knowledge a BE learns through the mastery of the profession. It represents what it means to be a bio-engineer, when you give away or sella schematic, it feels to me, like you are saying, "This profession/knowledge means little to me, so i can give it away or sell it. The time needed to master this profession that i put in means nothing, so if you were to master itthat would mean nothing also. So don't bother, I will give away the knowledge." Now i know some of you will disagree with me and that is fine, I can't stop you from selling schematics or even giving them away for free. I just wish your selling and/or giving didn't lessen the value of my profession and the time I spent mastering it. Now by value i do not mean credits, I mean value as a community member, value as needed by other players and professions, value as in being a profession that seems to be important enough to garner attention from the devs to keep our profession fun and exciting. I hope this clears up any thought some of you may have had about me being a "greedy" be or wanting credits, this has and never will be about that for me.
Okin_Sin
Fri Jul 02, 2004 8:45 am
#86
"This profession/knowledge means little to me, so i can give it away or sell it. The time needed to master this profession that i put in means nothing, so if you were to master itthat would mean nothing also. So don't bother, I will give away the knowledge."
So what exactly is the difference between giving/selling a chef the schematic for 40 crates of additives and making the 40 crates of additives then giving/selling em to the chef, credits aside? Either way the Chef now has 40 crates of additives, right? Being the master BE only means that you have the ability to take these resources, and turn them in to a schematic or additives. I just don't see how who's resources they are, Chef's or Be's, determines the value of a proffesion.
If I read this right, you as a BE say you would go out and buy/harvest the resources, make them in to a schematic, make the additives yourself and sell them for "X" amount. I just don't see how this is any different then a Chef that would buy/harvest the resources, pay a BE to make the schematic, make them in their own factory, and use them.
In the end the Chef has EXACTLY the same amount of additives, the BE makes EXACTLY the same amount of credits, the only difference is the BE didin't lose ANY of their own resources, and didin't have to spend any time with factories/harvesters/harvesting. Sounds to me if the BE charges the same amount that their profit margin would be, its to the BE's advantage to do this.
ArthurDentOnBria
Fri Jul 02, 2004 9:25 am
#87
Okin,
Doing schematics vs selling makes a big difference. Ok, think of it this way. Lets suppose there are 2 BE's each with one run (40 crates) of additives and the materials to make 1 more on demand. Lets say there are 3 chefs needing additives. Lets suppose that chef #1 gets a schematic to fill his needs. That means that both BE's still have all their additives sitting in their vendors, and now there are only 2 chefs left that need additives. The supply has stayed the same but the demand has dropped. This means most likely, the price of the additives will also need to drop.
Now suppose instead that chef #1 had bought up BE #1's additives instead of getting the schematic. This means that now his additives are gone, and the current supply has dropped to only 40 remaining between the two BE's to satisfy 2 chefs. So BE #1 had better get his behind in gear and make more, and since demand is now greater than supply, and he sold those other ones so easily, he'll need to give some thought to perhaps raising his price a little, or at the very least keeping it the same.
See the difference?
Doing schematics vs selling makes a big difference. Ok, think of it this way. Lets suppose there are 2 BE's each with one run (40 crates) of additives and the materials to make 1 more on demand. Lets say there are 3 chefs needing additives. Lets suppose that chef #1 gets a schematic to fill his needs. That means that both BE's still have all their additives sitting in their vendors, and now there are only 2 chefs left that need additives. The supply has stayed the same but the demand has dropped. This means most likely, the price of the additives will also need to drop.
Now suppose instead that chef #1 had bought up BE #1's additives instead of getting the schematic. This means that now his additives are gone, and the current supply has dropped to only 40 remaining between the two BE's to satisfy 2 chefs. So BE #1 had better get his behind in gear and make more, and since demand is now greater than supply, and he sold those other ones so easily, he'll need to give some thought to perhaps raising his price a little, or at the very least keeping it the same.
See the difference?
Okin_Sin
Fri Jul 02, 2004 9:42 am
#88
/clap for ArtherDent
I appreciate the non flame response, cuz i really didin't get it. After reading your post though, I now am beginning to see your point.
BTW these BE boards either have some VERY bitter people, or a one star bandit. Try explaining your points better instead of just one star everything you dont like. No one will understand your points if you just yell and flame, take the time to explain things to people who really might just not undrstand all the aspects of your side. Also please try to remember not everyone has to agree at the end of the day.
Kevm
Fri Jul 02, 2004 10:16 am
#89
Okin_Sin wrote:
BTW these BE boards either have some VERY bitter people, or a one star bandit. Try explaining your points better instead of just one star everything you dont like. No one will understand your points if you just yell and flame, take the time to explain things to people who really might just not undrstand all the aspects of your side. Also please try to remember not everyone has to agree at the end of the day.
I think every board has a 1-star bandit. Also, I thikn some of the bitterness being seen is due to this topic and how passionate everyone feels about it regardless of their point of view. Sometimes that passion over-rides ones ability to make rational non-flamming posts. It happens to the best of us at times.
Cephalo
Fri Jul 02, 2004 1:29 pm
#90
Denizen_Nightstalker wrote:I guess people that sell the schematics dont realize that the person there selling the schematic to is a potential lifetime customer. No chef I know buys anything from a BE ...its sad and has destroyed our profession. Then people go and sell there creatures for 10k !! ..what are they thinking !!!. I guess they make crap creatures at that price .. ( or one would hope ) ..but the pricing in this profession has got to raise. you can pay 325k a crate for 422 45min brandy or 150k a crate of Ahriza ...you can darn sure pay 100k for a creature that lasts almost forever.D
I really don't think there are enough BE's to meet that demand. If a chef can't buy finished tissues, he has no choice but try to at least take on part of that workload. Once he's done that, he has already heavily invested in the hope of buying a schematic and is even less likely to want finished tissues. I think schematics are acting as an escape valve to the real problem with the BE economy, the drastic shortage of meat.
Harvestable resources are way too easy to get, and animal resources are way too hard to get. Since our profession is heavily dependant on meat, our economic potential is greatly held back by this imbalance.
Message Edited by Cephalo on 07-02-2004 01:30 PM
Cephalo
Sat Jul 03, 2004 12:01 am
#91
ArthurDentOnBria wrote:
Okin,
Doing schematics vs selling makes a big difference. Ok, think of it this way. Lets suppose there are 2 BE's each with one run (40 crates) of additives and the materials to make 1 more on demand. Lets say there are 3 chefs needing additives. Lets suppose that chef #1 gets a schematic to fill his needs. That means that both BE's still have all their additives sitting in their vendors, and now there are only 2 chefs left that need additives. The supply has stayed the same but the demand has dropped. This means most likely, the price of the additives will also need to drop.
Now suppose instead that chef #1 had bought up BE #1's additives instead of getting the schematic. This means that now his additives are gone, and the current supply has dropped to only 40 remaining between the two BE's to satisfy 2 chefs. So BE #1 had better get his behind in gear and make more, and since demand is now greater than supply, and he sold those other ones so easily, he'll need to give some thought to perhaps raising his price a little, or at the very least keeping it the same.
See the difference?
Wait a sec on that one Arthur, If you only have 2 BE's who have the desired tissue in stock, where is the one chef going to get a schematic? You've gone outside the scenario you've defined so that it's not a closed system. You have to look at the system as a whole.
Let's close the system, and say that their are ONLY 2 BEs and 3 chefs, and an undetermined number of chef customers. 2 of the chefs get lucky and snap up the additives. Chef number 3 can either waste his time trying to compete with non BE foods, or he can go out and collect resources. Since the BE's refuse to sell a full schematic for 100k, but they are willing to buy resources, he then sells the resources back the BE's for 1900k and then buys the resulting additive run for 2000k, for a net cost of... 100k.
Who benefits from all BE's refusing to make schematics? The two chefs who bought the finished tissues are now spending time collecting resources for their own products while the one chef has the burden of collecting chef resources AND BE resources. Sounds like he's really losing out, even if he does buy a schematic.
Message Edited by Cephalo on 07-02-2004 12:11 PM