Bio Engineer Archive
Thread: Getting to know you and your profession!
TheRealTK421
Sun Oct 24, 2004 9:01 pm
#807
Most missing/needed Droid Engineer change: An equitable, all-encompassing (combat/utility) droid decay system....both for ground and space droid use.
/bow
Respectfully,
/bow
Respectfully,
Micco30
Sun Oct 24, 2004 9:03 pm
#808
Tiggs,
Thanks for stopping by our little "slice of heaven" 
In no particular order, I'll run down some of the things that I think make this profession weaker than it should be, and really a sideshow to the game as a whole:
In no particular order, I'll run down some of the things that I think make this profession weaker than it should be, and really a sideshow to the game as a whole:1.) Decay! You'll see a LOT of this as you read these boards. Once we make a sale...that's it. 
Not exactly a satisfying feeling to know that the first time you see yourcustomer will most likely be the last time (unless they change professions). Droid decay, in some form or another MUST be done.
Not exactly a satisfying feeling to know that the first time you see yourcustomer will most likely be the last time (unless they change professions). Droid decay, in some form or another MUST be done. 2.) Droid naming. Pretty please?!! 
Why can't we name humanoid chassis droids or put numbers in the Astromech droids names? Where is the Star Wars in that?
Why can't we name humanoid chassis droids or put numbers in the Astromech droids names? Where is the Star Wars in that?3.) Higher level combat droids. We have been told that the "Droid Handler" (or whatever the nom de jour for it is now) will be coming after JtL. That's cool. What I would like to ask though is to get some direction and allow us to have some interaction in this process. I'm well aware that we may not get everything we want. Heck, I'd be surprised if we get most of the stuff we want, but it would be nice to be able to have input into the DH class as it is created. The DH class IMHO must "complement" the DE class, not replace it, otherwise there will be even fewer DE's on my future friends list
4.) Heavy reliance on Master Artisan. I know this has been beat to death on these boards before, but it still grinds my beans to know that of all the crafting classes, ours isthe only one that basically HAS to have Master Artisan if we want to operate effectively. Show me a WS or AS who keeps Master Artisan and I'll show you a player with two accounts 
5.) More module types (combat and non-combat). We need to be able to have access to other non-combat utility modules. There are many many threads here with excellent ideas for what is possible. Combat modules need to have more differences, such as damage types, damage amounts, etc. Being limited to a single damage type and a single damage range no matter what resources you use, does not provide any differentionation between me and the DE down the block. Allow us to use experimentation values similar to what AS and WS do for their products. We know it isa tradeoff, but at least give us the option to think about what we want to trade.
6.) The module stats need to be clearer. Noone...and I mean noone, understands that the Module Rating on a Item storage module is NOT the amount of items it holds. I swear if I have to explain it once more I will lose those few marbles I have left rolling around in my big ole' head of mine! You need to revamp the module statistics to be clearer and more intuitive. I've seen what you have done for JtL for Data Modules, so I know it can be done. Please help us Obi-Tiggs...you are our only hope!
You need to revamp the module statistics to be clearer and more intuitive. I've seen what you have done for JtL for Data Modules, so I know it can be done. Please help us Obi-Tiggs...you are our only hope! 7.) Experimentation. Some items have values that dont require them to be experimented, yet they have the option. Why? I would ask that you remove experimentation values from subcomponents that do not require experimentation or revise the experimentation to actualy have some effect. There was nothing worse that discovering as a noob that even though i used my best resource to make a droid motive system the best I could make it, all my effortsdidnt make my droid move any faster than a module that I had crit failed on.There is no purpose or reason to what is and is not experimentable. Please help us out here.
8.) Chassis differentiation. I know you have probably seen a lot of this same issue in JtL, so I'll keep it brief. One chassis is no better than any other in most cases. It would be beneficial and welcome if we could have inherent chassis bonuses that would allow us to start pushing some of the underused chassis and start making different droids really be effective. Why does a Power Droid require batteries when it has a Power Core unit? That same line of thinking would lead me to believe that I need to use batteries in my Large Naboo too? Why doesnt a Medical droid have a medical crafting bonus? What purpose does it serve if not? Why can't a protocol droid do anything useful? Oh, and why do we have BLL chassis with no service module slots? Do you all know that we use them mostly for billboards, because there isnt another market for them?
Why doesnt a Medical droid have a medical crafting bonus? What purpose does it serve if not? Why can't a protocol droid do anything useful? Oh, and why do we have BLL chassis with no service module slots? Do you all know that we use them mostly for billboards, because there isnt another market for them?9.) New Chassis. While we may have a few good chassis, it would be a really, REALLY nice thing to have more selection. I know the chassis are in the game, but even if they aren't combat droids, more chassis will definitely add more to the Star Wars feel of the game.
I'm sure there is much more stuff, but it's late and I'm tired. Besides, there are many other DE's that are morearticulate and knowledgeable than I on some of these items! Again, thanks for stopping in!
TheRealTK421
Sun Oct 24, 2004 9:05 pm
#809
Micco,
She wanted the "most pressing" (read: singular) issue. At least...that's what I took from it.
Your post was great but it seems like she wanted one item per person. No offense.
She wanted the "most pressing" (read: singular) issue. At least...that's what I took from it.
Your post was great but it seems like she wanted one item per person. No offense.
/bow
Respectfully,
Respectfully,
Ko-aIri
Sun Oct 24, 2004 9:08 pm
#810
Tiggs wrote:I do have to say that CH does get my curiousity up since I have a few friends that play this class. They don't know I work for SOE and I rarely hear any complaints from them about their profession. Odd, huh.Oh! To the trolls that posted, sorry I am all out of troll food today. Guess we will have to buck heads another day.
Tiggs,
I feel that comment is rude and dismissive. It's like you're saying because your CH friends don't talk about the problems with the class, that the problems don't exist.
The simple truth is, those people right now who currently hold the profession of Creature Handler, and specifically the title of Master, love the profession for what it COULD be and the roleplay value/character value that the profession provides, and in some cases the help it brings in combat (depending on what you fight). We MCH know what we HOPE CH will become, and love it for what it offers, and strive and beg and plead for our voices to be heard and our problems solved and our profession improved. NOBODY takes this profession with some delusion that it is powerful. If they do, they find out quickly how wrong they are and drop it.
We also have been complaining for virtually a year now with no major sweeping changes to "fix" what has been broken/nerfed. We were "combat balanced" (or revamped or upgraded or whatever) in November. It is now 11 months later, and we are still waiting for everybody else to catch up. Your friends probably don't complain anymore because they are hoarse from 11 months of it, and/or they, like I said above, love CH for what it COULD be and hopefully WILL be.
For example, some CHs believe CH is a pure combat profession. However, every other combat profession could, quite frankly, kick our asses in a fight. Our profession requires 2 lines of scout as prerequisites. A TKA invests 92 skill points. A CH invests 106. Yet, in a 1v1 fight, I doubt any TKA would lose to a CH (assuming those professions are the ONLY ones used) regardless of what pet the CH used. The TKA would destroy the pet/pets (because our pets take full, unreduced damage in a PVP fight) within a few seconds, then laugh and annihilate us. We need the 75% damage adjustment in PvP to apply to our pets taking damage, or we're simply useless in that role.
Some believe that CH is simply a support profession. Even in this role, we are limited, as we do not have access to a full spectrum of pets CL 70 and under, as many desired creatures in this level range do not spawn babies. If all CL 70 and under creatures had a chance of spawning babies, we would at least have a broader array of pets to use in combat for specialized roles. Even so, no CL 70 creature as a pet could compete in high-level combat (like the Corvette or Death Watch Bunker), and functions in that role as a distraction at best before flopping over lifeless on the floor. We need to be allowed to have stronger pets and a larger variety of pets, or our usefulness as a class ends at mid-range content.
Some believe CH is a social profession, the collection of rare pets and the companionship of artificial creatures in a gaming environment. Those people are also limited by the lack of available selection, and the frustration in some desirable pets being almost TOO rare, or extinct.
Of course, CH is all of these things and more, but everyone has their primary focus.
There were some angry/negative comments on this thread, but people are just venting 11 months of frustration, and rightfully so. We deserve better than "Odd, huh" from you. We pay $15 a month just like everyone else. I recognize that all the professions require attention, but don't sweep us under the rug and pretend we don't have valid concerns/arguments/points like your comments seem to imply.
Message Edited by Ko-aIri on 10-25-2004 12:15 AM
Tiggs
Sun Oct 24, 2004 9:10 pm
#811
UmbrusUrsa wrote:
Tiggs wrote:
UmbrusUrsa wrote:
Tiggs! Its 11:00 at night! Get some sleep tomorrow is a big day!
Easy there, its only 10:18 in Austin =) Sleep is for the weak, I have a few more hours I can get work done.
*Remembers hearing RUMORS of people drinking from coffee cups left on desk from the night before!
Oh I didnt know you worked the night shift!
I have not done that yet. I have grabbed a day old Pepsi though =P I work during the day like everyone else just my day lasts a lot longer sometimes.
Micco30
Sun Oct 24, 2004 9:10 pm
#812
TheRealTK421 wrote:
Micco,
She wanted the "most pressing" (read: singular) issue. At least...that's what I took from it.
Your post was great but it seems like she wanted one item per person. No offense.
/bow
Respectfully,
Hehe, no offense taken at allTK. I didn't read it the same way I guess, as i thought she was asking more for what issues we thought were important. I can definitely say that all of these are important, at least to me.When we had this same type of thing in the Carbineer Forum, I ended up posting several items like this. Let me know if you want me to remove my ramblings
Message Edited by Micco30 on 10-25-2004 12:13 AM
Karquile
Sun Oct 24, 2004 9:11 pm
#813
Dancer is a useful profession for more than just the game's compulsive socializers. I'm not really worried that the devs aregoing to say yes to Tiggsanyway , but I think it's important to mention that not everybody agrees that AFK entertainer play is a mortal sin. Many consider it a valuable service. It's easy to gripe about bots in Theed, but try a ranger camp in the wilds of Dathomir some time.
, but I think it's important to mention that not everybody agrees that AFK entertainer play is a mortal sin. Many consider it a valuable service. It's easy to gripe about bots in Theed, but try a ranger camp in the wilds of Dathomir some time.
Nvim
Sun Oct 24, 2004 9:13 pm
#814
Tiggs wrote:Hello Ch'ers,I do have to say that CH does get my curiousity up since I have a few friends that play this class. They don't know I work for SOE and I rarely hear any complaints from them about their profession. Odd, huh. Anyway thank you all for the information and with helping me to learn what you feel is wrong with this class.
I think the main reason your friends have not been complaining is the same reason I did not post on this thread despite my feeling of severe disappointment. Because I know that nobody cares or is going to do anything about it, so why bother.
I don't log in to complain all day to friends about mechanics they have no control over. I don't want to drag them down and ruin their enjoyment of the game with my issues.
What I suggest you do is do a search on Thunderheart's posts in relation to Creature Handlers, the 'Oh Sir, I see a bunch of creatures heading our way' or something like that and the subsequent follow up points. Thundernerf went into great deatail about why CH were being changed and all the good fun-loving stuff the masters would benefit from.
Now go through his post and just see how much of what he said is true, absolutely nothing. It has been one great lie followed by another. We were once strong in PvE and weak in PvP. We are now weak in PvE and miserable in PvP.
The main justification for ruining CH was because they were popular and effective, one of the few functioning professions back then. Thunderheart said he wanted to give Master CH a purpose and to remove the excessive power from dabblers. I do not know what he was smoking when they were working on Bio-Engineers because they reversed all the balancing work done in December 2003.
Now we have dabblers that have far more power than masters because of BEs, but I am thankful for them because without them there is not one worthwhile wild pet worth taming. Sorry, that is not true, there are a few but are so ridiculously rare I no longer bother trying to find them.
I have non-CH pets which have 10k/7k/5k HAM, 60% kinetic resists and KD&Dizzy specials at CL9. This is better than the system we had before? My rock beetle was 2.2k ham, light armour, i think was 35% kinetic. We have really made a huge inroads to keep the power in the hands of masters.
I have a CL22 pet which has 10k/9k/7k HAM, Light Armour and 60% kinetic resists and also has KD and Dizzy specials. This gives you a superior pet to the old mauler and you only need 1 tree to use it. Again, even dabblers now have access to exellent mid-level tanks.
Once you get to CL35 that is about where BE pets hit their peak, there is only a marginal difference between CL35 and CL70 pets. That lack of any kind of scaling has left us with nothing that can survive the hits from higher level creatures.
If your friends are happy to just run around and do low level content then CH are fantastic, but that is the same content a dancer can tank with no melee or offensive skills. I can tank Rancors as a medic if I have buffs, there is no skill and there is no threat level like there once was. Most wild creatures are just uncompetitive and once you go above CL70 creatures you run into creatures we have nothing in our arsenal that is going to stand up against them.
The encounters above CL70 are ridiculously difficult for CH because we do not have the damage avoidance or mitigation that meleers have and the ham difference is not enough. With light armour, 60% kinetic and 14k ham being the maximum a CH can expect we take 1 in 5 damage from kinetic hits. Some creatures hit for between 3k to 5k. The best of our creatures which are BEd creatures will be ripped apart in a matter of seconds.
When it comes to PvP, the only real end-game content we have, our hardest hitting pets that do 500-600 damage will inflict less than 5 points of damage on a meleeplayer and about 15 on a non-meleer, if they can hit. We have the obsured mechanics were players are knocking down and crippling gigantic creatures that are meant to be hundred of tons. They do not benefit from the pvp damage reduction, they lose vitality they are expensive and time consuming to acquire, we dont have factories spitting out full grown pets, meleers have cheap and easy access to crates of weapons or amour. We have a limited number of pets and we can't even utilise them during combat.
We cost 106 points to master. 106 points. If you are a master TKA would the benefit of 106 points in CH be more worthwhile than sticking those points into other melee and ranged classes to max out defenses, mitigations and state stacking. The opportunity cost of investing points in CH is a liability. You become significantly weaker putting anything in our profession. The low-end content that we can reasonably do those professions can waltz through like superman.
The only reason we are functional at all is because any creature below CL70 was severely weakned to make CH a worthless profession and we can pretty much tank those mobs without the pets.
Message Edited by Nvim on 10-24-2004 10:01 PM
ZevVeers
Sun Oct 24, 2004 9:13 pm
#815
first...? prob not...
last...? more than likely...
Hello there Tiggs..
I have been aNovice DE since December. I have just recently (within the last month) started to make my way up the skill tree after screwing around for 9 months. Here are a couple things I would like to see done.
1. Implementation of Droid Decay... plain and simple, droids wear out. This will also increase business as well.
2. Ability to pull out more than one droid at a time... its been rehashed again in our forums, and for the reasons stated there, I support this.
3. Somehow in the scheme of things i would like to see modules being able to be switched out and replaced with other modules, think of how we manage starfighters (thankthe makerthe NDA has been lifted).
4. Incorporate new droid chassis. This could be done by having schematics dropped as loot, or being a reward in an "artisan friendly" themepark that also fits into the overall GCW.
5. Modules such as ones that can tap into the Alliance Holonet and allow coverts to be overt by using this droid (perhaps calling this droid could give a person a TEF or something).
6. Maybe this should be #1, but resolve some of the ongoing issues regarding the maintenance module and seeker droids.
7. Ability to name all droids (and use numbers in their name as well). And to color 3P0 units after they have been created.
8. Most importantly, and this goes before anything else... Keep Drashk in the loop. Keep him involved, take him down to Texas, or San Diego, or where ever for a day or two every couple monthsand give him good information he can pass onto us so wecan hash it out and therefore he can let you know what we think collectively. And if he doesn't like flying I'll go in his place.
Though its been like a month, and the New Kid in the neighborhood status that you hadhas nowworn off... Welcome to our wierd little world.
Raptor2k1
Sun Oct 24, 2004 9:19 pm
#817
*gives Tiggs cover fire* Go! I'll hold them off! *puts away blaster and pulls out lightsaber*
Uh oh, now we'll have to fend off all the BH's too! 
Fobok
Sun Oct 24, 2004 9:20 pm
#818
While I'm currently frustrated with having to pump out hundreds of mouse droids before getting access to other, more interestingchassis, I think it's hardly the most important thing.
Really, I think what we need is droids that are more useful. Even in JTL you have people forgoing astromechs or flight computers because they're not useful enough for the amount of ship space they take up. (I really like the idea of making them necessary to go to hyperspace.) We need something, though, that will make people want to buy these things for prices that will let us stay in business.
GrandPotato
Sun Oct 24, 2004 9:39 pm
#819
For me, the most important, aside from the already stated decay system (which would help bring much more business), I would say that adding more variety of *USEFUL* chassis to the game, and make existing ones more useful. I don't like the fact that the I feel like the only worthwhile droid to create is the adv R3, because it has 6 slots. There's a market for others (like bomb MSEs or Probots), but otherwise the ADV R3 is the way to go. This can be accomplished in a few ways:
1. Expand the number of modules available in many models, especially the protocol droid.
2. Add chassis for which the art already exists in the game but are not being used by Droid Engineers (bug-eyed humanoids, battle droid, etc)
3. Add chassis for which there is no art, but should be. Watch the Sandcrawler interior scene in Ep4 and Jabba's palace droid hell in Ep6 for good examples.
4. Battery storage.... I'd like to think of it like power for harvesters. Power drains way too fast. (Okay, this one didn't fit with what I started out with, but oh well...)
Even if the added chassis were available as loot, have it make sense. The no-longer-available Trade Federation battle droid should be a loot drop. A common J9 worker droid should not... at least not a single-use schematic. Think the way the shellfish tool was implemented. Not all artisans have it, but those who did the quest can make it. Content is good! Perhaps you could use it as an excuse to give a presence to the different corporations that exist in the SW universe but I rarely see any living proof of in the game.
Oh, and increase the amount of items per crate, because droids take LOTS of parts!
1. Expand the number of modules available in many models, especially the protocol droid.
2. Add chassis for which the art already exists in the game but are not being used by Droid Engineers (bug-eyed humanoids, battle droid, etc)
3. Add chassis for which there is no art, but should be. Watch the Sandcrawler interior scene in Ep4 and Jabba's palace droid hell in Ep6 for good examples.
4. Battery storage.... I'd like to think of it like power for harvesters. Power drains way too fast. (Okay, this one didn't fit with what I started out with, but oh well...)
Even if the added chassis were available as loot, have it make sense. The no-longer-available Trade Federation battle droid should be a loot drop. A common J9 worker droid should not... at least not a single-use schematic. Think the way the shellfish tool was implemented. Not all artisans have it, but those who did the quest can make it. Content is good! Perhaps you could use it as an excuse to give a presence to the different corporations that exist in the SW universe but I rarely see any living proof of in the game.
Oh, and increase the amount of items per crate, because droids take LOTS of parts!