Bio Engineer Archive
Thread: CH's are revolting
HaggisofAhazi wrote:What do you call Pet Stims then? Or starport fees to travel all over the galaxy looking for uber pets so they can come back and sell them? Or regular stims used to heal up when a tame goes bad? You should be familiar with that last one. It's the same thing that happens to you when a pet you're sampling goes aggro.
Time is not a resource to CH's, it is a drain. There are only a limited number of spaces available in a CH's datapad. It takes days to grow a pet to the point that it's useful. If it wasn't for that drain they'd be pushing them out in greater numbers.
Just because an arguement annoys you doesn't mean it's not true. Also, next time you flame make sure you know your audience. I was a BE long before I was a CH.
Chill,
Haggis
Bio-Engineer/Creature Handler/Pistol Specialist
What do I call stims. Well you're a combat class. I call them the same as every class that gets injured. In your case its the pet. Besides, thats the cost of fighting. We arent talking about that here are we. We are talking about the crafting side of things. There is no rule stating that it is an absolute for a CH to go into combat. If you start combat, you are prob doing a mission or hunting something worthwhile....so cash is either gained or you're hunting something instead of buying.
Starport fees are for everyone. What you think Lok wild wheat grows on tat? What about endorian flower fruit.....or talusian water. YOu think HQ meat that we need for products constantly spawns in one place. Please, starport fees is another sorry excuse. Another 0 sum arguement cause everyone has these costs yet CH only think that these costs are applied to them specifically.
Huh, I never heal up after a sample goes bad. After my mind is shot from sampling (I usually just sit on my a$$ for a few minutes and start again.
The fact remains, every other crafting class is sinking money into its product for resources, maitence....etc. For some reason CH believes they are an artisan in a market where everything they can sell is essentially free to them.
Tilen
Scylla
sorry haggis, but i disagree with you on this point also.
CH arent artisans... but if you think about it neither is BE.
i know we craft items and pay for resources, but BEis toend products (pther thanpet meds)what CMis tocombat - enhancement... so i guess we are a "crafting support profession" in some ways... -_- (off topic i know.. maybe thats a silly way to look at it, it just came to me now).
ANYWAY, before i went off on that retarded tangent, i was gonnasay something ive been saying for a while:
pets should require MORE CARE!!! im talking about real care - different pets only eat certain foods (you feed yourrancor wild onions!! how did he ever get so big?),CH need to craft the control devices, craft whistles/rewards/treatsrequiredfortraining, petswho are taken better care of will perform better and grow to be significantly stronger than neglected ones.
if this were true then the CH profession would be more realistic and fun (although pets do need HAM regen back) and they could be considered artisans in some abstract way because they actually have to do SOMETHING other than going and finding the pet (which is horsepoop).
my 2 cents,
Tilen said:
What do I call stims. Well you're a combat class. I call them the same as every class that gets injured. In your case its the pet. Besides, thats the cost of fighting. We arent talking about that here are we. We are talking about the crafting side of things. There is no rule stating that it is an absolute for a CH to go into combat.
Thanks for proving my point. CH's can be either a crafting class, a combat class, or both. It's up to the player.
Yes, there are a lot of shared fees amoung classes. CH's share them with other classes. Your original point was that there are no cash sinks for CH's. As far as stims go, they are a cost of advancement to attain higher levels of control needed to train more powerful creatures both for use and sale. Other crafters sink money into raw materials to use as part of their advancement. The end result is the same: the ability to provide more powerful products.
You seem to have something personal against CH's. Whatever your deal is, they are potential customers. You can keep holding your grudge and stick to selling tissues, or you can get over it and use them to make some money.
"For some reason CH believes they are an artisan in a market where everything they can sell is essentially free to them."
And just for the record, most of them would disagree with you. They think they are a combat/explorer class, not a combat/crafting class. BE's who have taken a hard look at how they fit into the crafting equationare the ones I've seen argue that the CH process is the same as the Tailor or Chef process. You're not really fighting against CH's. You're fighting against some of your BE bretheren.
Again, chill.
Haggis
Bio-Engineer/Creature Handler/Pistol Specialist
As a suggestion, why don't they just review the DNA templates we have and alter them so at each level BE's get a new CL10 Non-CH template that is slightlymore powerful than the level below?
We might even see some "proper" mixing of traits with new Genetically modified creatures that are advanced forms of lower ones.
Mambacca - That's a good point. There should be a better progression of capabilities from Novice to Master in the Cloning line. Supposedly the changes to Cloning will enable something like that. You start with a base critter chassis and then add high HAM, high dmg, special attacks, armor. And most importantly, lower CL. The higher in the Cloning line you get, the more stuff you get to do to the critter.
I'll be interested to see how this works out. The BE dev had a definite idea in mind last time he talked to us. Based on his past work, we can assume he will require us to use non-existing resources to make half the creatures. And the special attacks won't stack with the armor on the same creature.
See how I started out with a positive post, but ended sounding like Eeyore?
Yes, there are a lot of shared fees amoung classes. CH's share them with other classes. Your original point was that there are no cash sinks for CH's. As far as stims go, they are a cost of advancement to attain higher levels of control needed to train more powerful creatures both for use and sale. Other crafters sink money into raw materials to use as part of their advancement. The end result is the same: the ability to provide more powerful products.
You seem to have something personal against CH's. Whatever your deal is, they are potential customers. You can keep holding your grudge and stick to selling tissues, or you can get over it and use them to make some money."
You know, I really dont have a problem with that. If they want to be a crafting class, fine. If they want to be a combat class fine. There are a few other classes out there like that and no one is really getting on them. I mean look at smuggler. They are both a crafting and combat class, very similar to CH. Where my problem comes in is they can not excel at both.
Currently, CH is probably one of the top 3 combat classes in the game. If they were a pure combat class, that wouldnt be a problem. They put in more points than the linear combat professions (Pikeman/Rifleman..etc) and should be up there. Right up there with Commando probably (which ironically, they are the exact opposite). See as a combat class, thats fine.
But no, then they want to be an artisan class. Now you have had people running around selling pets and this is only going to multiply with mounts. They also want to tame their own pets which pretty much shuts the pure crafting class out of selling their wares. The fact that most CH tamed pets are better than BE pets (though there supposedly is a patch to correct this) makes matters even worse. And then the fact that a CH can go out and tame their own wares at no cost to them even further compounds the problem by allowing the CH to skip out of the buying process and essentially leeching off the market. The fact that CH is both user, supplier, and seller is definately a problem and something the devs said they didnt want from the very beginningof this game.Anyway, thepoint is, CH is going to have a very viable market. Again, I'd support that if they were an artisan class per se.
Now, the problem come I have is you are currently combining these two. You are a combat class (top 3 in the game) and an artisan class with a monopoly on the market securing your marketshare. This just plain isnt right. If you want to excel in something such as combat, I'm right there with you. But to turn around and say that you have the right to be both an artisan and a combat class (in their current form) is wrong. If you really wanted to have both, you should get skills along the way that smuggler gets skills. A very scaled down version of combat leaving you with some combat abilities, but below the pure combat classes.
In reality, and I've mentioned this before, is that the CH class needs to probably be broken up. Acting as a supplier and a user and a retailerfrom one class isnt right. {And before you talk about how other classes use their wares, ie tailor, armorsmith, whatever, realize this. These items are available to everyone. CH's have argued that pets are their weapons, and just like weapons the CH has a certification system (the CL limits on their class). When you guys argue that tailor gets to use their wares, why dont you recommend that a weaponsmith auctomatically get certs for every weapon they can create, or why dont you argue that BE's should be able to use anything they create?. Why, cause its a stupid idea but its the samestupid ideathat I've seen many CH's use as an arguement}. Magnifying the problem is that your class has become so overpowered that its also become overpopulated with people with their own agendas. There are people that justifiably so became a CH to sell pets. If thats what they wanted to do, the game mechanic should be there for them. And I'm sure there a people that became a CH for the massive combat power they hold. Again, you guys have that right as you spend more points than baseline classes. So there never will be any clear consensus on what to do with CH since each playstyle is going to have its own distinct following. What I propose is this or something along these lines:
1) Have a creature handler class that essentially has all the commands of the current creature handling class. They can tame pets, they can use their pets, and they can train their pets. What they lose is their ability to sell pets (essentially transfer). They also have the ability to train mounts for personal use. This would also help the Combat CH's who always say they never have enough room. This will eliminate the burden of keeping lower creatures for sale. So essentially they are an independent class (like now) that could goto others to get upgrades if they so choose.
2) Have a creature trainer class that works on selling creatures for those who preferred the artisan side of the class. They will have increased storage or the ability to re-deed a trained pet to maintain as many pets as needed. They will both supply trained creatures that are under CL10 for and mounts for the general populace. They would not have the ability to tame pets, instead working with the BE to sell their trained pets. They could also create kennels for CH to put retired (a one way trip) into instead of deleting them. Throw in some mount armor crafting and what we got is a pretty full class. You could even have them be the supplier of pets to the CH class making it so CH can not tame deeds and would have to go through the BE via the trainer.
See, those are 2 very solid stand alone classes. Giving everyone what they want. The combat class gets their ideals, the artisans get their ideals and theres really no more disagreements between these 2 sides. Every class fits their nich, everything falls together nice and neat. While I'm sure there will be things each class wants, they will be focused and important to their field, instead of how it is now where u have 2 different sides pulling against each other.
And my next point here is only going to be proven/disproven by time.
Haggis, you really think I have a problem with CH. You couldnt be further from the truth. I'm not sure if you are new to these types of games, or a veteran, but either way u need to know/be reminded of this. The pendulum swings. Right now, CH is pretty much at the top of the food chain. You guys really arent pushing for more power or balance (sure sign that your class is overpowered btw, read your own top 5 if u dont believe me), you guys are fighting to retain what you already have. But there are going to be updates and classes are going to be made stronger, yet what happens is those that are strong get less and less, and those that are weak get more and more until the weak classes are the overpowered ones and the overpowered are the weak ones. Its going to happen, mark my words. And do you really think that CH has many legs to stand on when it comes to pushing for more abilities. No, whats going to happen is CH is basically going to get nothing (enjoy mounts as they were given to you a LONG time ago) cause I seriously doubt that you will be seeing anything new for quite a while. Enjoy the nerf bat, because this is the first step. You are losing power, and melee is increasing in power. There will come a point where CH is a mere sideshow, no longer tanking, no longer dealing with large mobs (its already starting btw). No, people will see you as a worthless class since even a novice marksman could be pumping more damage than a master CH. And the price of all of this is going to be that you have "artisan abilities."
Whether you believe me or not, I really dont care. If you have played other MMORPG's, as I'm sure other vets will tell you, that I am right. And whether you know it or not, your class is on the fast track to being nerfed into oblivion and most of your class (btw, this might have something to do with the high 13 year old factor of CH) has no idea its coming. I really dont like nerfs, really I dont. Though I do like balance, and I like things to make sense. I like things to work well, and I would much rather have the classes working together instead of against each other. So, do I have a problem with CH, absolutely not.I'm trying to suggest things to you guys and make you see whats coming. You see it in all the posts, everyone hates CH cause they are overbalanced, and they are right. And you guys have no legs to stand on, no reasoning to say why you shouldn't be nerfed. Reading CH replies is pointless drivel as theres no reasoning behind them, no sense of balance.
So believe me if you want to, call me a liar right here and now if you want to, I personally dont care. But ask around, because the things I'm saying are true.
Tilen
Scylla
they complain about chs selling pets - and it sounds like pets are the only thing they can do, in teh same second the COULD(and most likely do) make TONS of money selling their petstims to exactly those CHs...
they complain that chs have no cost at all - but i can asure you: it is MUCH more expensive and time consuming to travel to dathomir and find a graul mauler then it is to sample a few durnis - make a rancor - and get "ok" dna for a creature to sell....
and now, with teh changes, the complain about the exact opposite - chs geting nerfed! omg! our marked is done
some people i realy dont understand ...
those people can be found in every profession tho
Kinian, dont get me wrong here. In principle, I have no real problem with CH selling pets. Where my problem comes in is that their current artisan and combat abilities probably make CH over balanced. And we know that pets isnt the only thing we do, but when over 60% of your class is dedicated to this one thing, its definately worth fighting for.
Really, you think 6-7K (if u need a two hop journey) is a LOT of money. And thats for one pet. Get 3 per trip to Dath and you cut your expenses down to 2k a pet. Big spender. The durni thing u mentioned is getting taken out, so thats a moot point and soon we will have the same thing as you having to go to a planet to get high CL DNA. Btw, that takes time too. Plus then we need to assemble the creature with meat/flora etc....that takes cash too. I've already pointed out that both travel costs and time costs are moot points because every single class has them. Combat, artisan, support, everyone pays travel costs. And time is moot cause again, everyone has time.
BTW, I agree with the CH nerf. I could care less about the levels or the amount of pets you have. The creature rebalancing is going to be the single greatest hit to the CH, and single greatest boon to BE.
I was of the understanding that only masters could make a Creature a Mount.
Since I am a Master then I can do that.
I could care less if the would be players who only took a few creature handler skills just so they could use a GRual, quit....
As far as I am concerned they where probably going to quit from the moment they started playing...they are just making a big production to make it seam like its much more then its is.
The changes coming sound fine to me...with the exception of the random target thing....but other wise the changes sound fine.
being limited to 2 creatures is also fine...as it was very appearent most of the people who whined about that never could pull out three to begin with and therefore where never Master Creature Handlers.
As a Master Creature handler I never pulled out three, unless I was showing off, selling stuff, or trying to make lots of noise via the noise brigade....
2 was what i normally used...a level 50 and a level 20 or so.
Tilen,
Thanks for the well thought out reply. I think at this point we can agree to disagree about exactly what type of class CH is.
For me personally CH is a supplement to BE. I was a BE first, and I wanted to be able to train and use what I could make. Since I gimped my self so severly on the combat side I also wanted some support in the field while I was working. It's worked out well, but the "nerf" would have been a setback.
My main issues with the nerf are:
It doesn't solve the problem it's supposed to solve. It's still more advantagious for dabblers to run uptwo trees than it is to spread out their skills. They will get more CL for their skill points.
It only addresses the symptom, not the problem. Other professions still do not have sufficient tanking ability. Melee professions should all have better defense/block/dodge skills. If creatures are not "Star Warsy" enough then droids should be stronger. The probot never should have been nerfed. CH currently fills that void.
It still doesn't necessarily balance the professions. Until all of the broken professions are fixed we're never going to have a true idea of their relative strengths. Any aggressive moves with the nerf bat prior to that time are potentially premature. Undernerfed professions will get beat down still more. Overnerfed professions will most likely never see any of their power handed back.
Having said all that, I agree with you about the pendulum. I've been playing pen and paper RPG's since the late 70's and on-line Strategy/MMORPG's since Battlenet first went on line. I've beta tested a few as well, including Earth and Beyond, which should be interesting to compare to the upcoming space expansion. Balancing can and will happen, but it can be taken to far. I've you've ever played AC 1 and seen all the OG-Mages and three school archers running around you'll know what I'm talking about. That's the kind of balancing that I protest; the kind that turns everyone into carbon copies of each other for no good reason.
Regarding your two class suggestion, it's an interesting idea, but I don't think it would ever happen. First, becuase the devs are to busy working on new professions. Second, becaus the Creature Trainer class you suggest doesn't seem viable in the long term. Armorsmiths would protest the omission of mount armor from their profession which pretty much leaves the Creature Trainer as just a walking datapad. I'd actually flip-flop the names too since the Creature Trainer actually doesn't have any training skills.
All in all, the only thing I would have to contest is the degree to which you feel CH's will be devalued. I don't believe they will be worthless, but I think there will be other alternitives that ensure they are no longer the only show in town. As I've said, melee and droids should have more prominence. But, for those that enjoy CH there will still be value.
Cheers,
Haggis