CUEmu - Thread Posts

Spazzers

Tue Mar 23, 2004 3:21 pm

Much better post I must say. As I said in the very beginning your idea isn't badwith the exception it makes me have to do all my creature business in real time.

I have some questions. To summarize,I make a stim using DNA. I still have to get mutant rancor DNA to make a high end stim I'm guessing. You bring me a baby. I use my uber stim to make that baby into an uber baby. I then charge you for that service.We won't go into pricing.I agree the burden of finding a baby for me to perform my service falls on the creature handler. I also agree you've removed all my sales of animals to non-creature handlers because I don't craft animals anymore. Actually, without any creature handler skills of my ownI get to sell no animals at all. You've completely removed the clone tree. Many players took BE for the purpose of making animals.

A creature handler does what with that new uber baby? If its a non-creature handler baby you're going to sell it obviously. If its above CL10 are you going to sell it to another creature handler that can just go to a BE with their own baby? When bio-engineers made cookie cutter animals I never sold a single animal to a creature handler with the exception of rancors. No creature handler is going to buy an animal from another creature handler when they can just tame their own baby. You've reduced the creature market to non-creature handlers.

The creature market belongs solely to creature handlers in this scenario. Was this your idea of sharing the market? I concede I get my share by charging for the stim. The problem is a creature handler doesn't necesarily have to go to a BE at all. They can just sell the plain janemodels and completely cut out the BE altogether. Again, the market is non-creature handlers.

Again, your idea is not bad in theory. There are inherent problems with it. A viable alternative is using the system as it is today. Fix the creature level calculation in the clone system. A bio-engineer sells animals to a creature handler who in-turn sells those animals to the general public. In a sense this is the way the existing system works. Its just not being implemented well. Let me explain;a bio-engineered animal is useless without a creature handler. No BE animal can be used without training. In theory creature handlers should be purchasingevery single BE deed, taming and training those deeds, then reselling them at a profit. This is actually what you're suggesting with the baby stim idea. Unfortunately, this happens very rarely. Once in a blue moon a creature handler will come along and cleans out my vendor.I have a few creature handlers that purchase non-creature handler mounts deedsfrom me, grow those mounts, train them, and sell them at a profit.

I've offered this to other creature handlersbut it doesn'tgo over all that well. Many creature handlers are not interested in training BE animals for resale let alone being a "horse trader." They don't want to use their datapad space togrow animals. Again, that's why many BE's are creature handlers.

I hope this explains why your idea didn't go over as well as you hoped.

Buboopadoo
HOBO Embezzler
A Simple Resource Dealer

A Developer's answer to everything:
"I can't promise to try, but I'll try to try"

Spazzers

Tue Mar 23, 2004 3:28 pm

#41

Pluto,

My post was directed toward Bendi. It wasn't to say you and I discussed this concept and decided it didn't work. Bendi and I had a discussion the other day regarding the pet check and whether it declares animals valid or invalid correctly.

Message Edited by Spazzers on 03-23-2004 02:29 PM

Buboopadoo
HOBO Embezzler
A Simple Resource Dealer

A Developer's answer to everything:
"I can't promise to try, but I'll try to try"

Bendi_James

Tue Mar 23, 2004 4:06 pm

#42

My question to Spazzers.

Is the new crafting system still live onthe Naritusserver?

I am hearing a few (Tempest) BE's and CH's complaining about the valid pet check system now. Ihadn't heard of any lasttime we discussed things. They are saying that the normal (normal is relative term to every BE)BE pets are the one'sbeing nerfed, which I think is what you were implying in the post that was deleted. If this is the case, then I totally agree that pet checks should be put on hold until the parameters are adjusted to proper proportions. I started another post to offer suggestions on coming to terms with pet validation. Feel free to post comments there as well.

/hijack off

Sorry

ArthurDentOnBria

Tue Mar 23, 2004 5:02 pm

#43

Revamp? No, that's the last thing we need. With revamps you get more/different functionality but generally many more bugs. We got a revamp when we had a system that was terrible, boring, and didn't cut it. I actually think the BE crafting system is perhaps the best in SWG. I wish other classes had one as good. What we have are bugs. Lots of bugs, and the CL level determination is probably the most glaring. It's been beaten to death, and there's no doubt at all that this is our #1 issue, but in all honesty I'm in no hurry to see this get fixed.

Yea, its frustrating to see 10k HAM CL 10 pets that are valid, and 1k HAMpets that are invalid, but the inevitable conclusion to this is that we all have 1k HAM, 50 damage pets that nobody will want to use anyway. Be careful what you ask for, lol, you just might get it.

P.S. I hate the proposal, lol, sorry, but I do. I think we already have a much better crafting system then that. I realize that CH's want to contribute to the crafting of animals but, well, get BE.

Message Edited by ArthurDentOnBria on 03-23-2004 04:08 PM

ArthurDent - former Bio Engineer, Tailor, and Droid Engineer
Account cancelled 7/8/05 due to game breaking bugs in these professions that have been neglected for FAR too long. Last day July 27 2005
custom tailoring and droid orders welcome. "making Evil products since July 2003"
Achiever: 80%, Explorer: 60%, Socializer: 46%, Killa 13%

Pluto9Moon

Tue Mar 23, 2004 5:21 pm

#44

Spaz,

Let me try to walk through my hypothetical process. You nailed most of it perfectly. You go out and do all the Geneticistcollecting you normally do. Looking for tha killer DNA. And where appropriate the right specials from the right mobs. You mix and match high quality DNA for HAM, this special and that ranged.

For the sake of argument let's assume you find the correct combinations at MBE to create a 25% HAM increase, KD special Stim. Again you do all your recominations in the lab. The only thing that is missing is the baby.

The part about the baby or skin seems to be a point of contention. Since I do not know what your formula is, I cannot even percieve what step this is replacing. If in the laby instead of a baby you put meat, then this would replace it. Now for all intent and purposes the baby would have a slave collar. The funtion of the slave collar is to make the baby first and foremost stay in suspended animation. Secondly it is to allow the transference ofbabies in suspended animations. It is best to think of it as a deeded pet. Currently anyone can buy or trade them. But taming and controlling are a different story.

Now back to the final combine. The baby, lets not call it a stim, lets call it Recombined DNA Bath all go into the clone tube hopper. You press start Recombination. The collar is still on the new Beast you throw it on your vendor an sale it. Dude lol play on valcyn ill give you graul babies that i kill every day because they have no purpose now but dying.

I have not eliminated any of your market, merely changed the skins.A CL10 i think some said Carrion Spat with a great DNA Bath would still be CL10 with 1155 HAM. Not overly a lot but then againnon-CH have not wasted the skill points to have the extra advantage. PlusI have provided a system of two way needing.

Sign for Hutt Faction here: Hutt Faction

Not against broad changes, just profession specific ones (read as CH) that go against what we've been told in the past.
(I hired Trayson as a ghost writer for a good tagline)

Cylenthia_Tavishaun

Tue Mar 23, 2004 8:29 pm

#45

Make it a side project of BE's (ie. we perform genetic augmentation of a living animal) Next thing they can get droid engineers on it and we can make half AT-ST half Rancor.

Cylenthia Tavishaun
Master Brawler | Master Swordsman | Master Pikeman
Warrant Officer I, Imperial Army
Daughters of Allya (SHE)

Asher76

Tue Mar 23, 2004 10:04 pm

#46

Pluto,

I have to say from the sounds of your posts it seems like your main concern is non ch pets and their stats. What you are proposing will stop the creation of the 3k+ ham lvl 10 pets but it won't stop there, it will carry on to the rest of the pets that a BE can craft including the high lvl ones. The other problem, that i think will be a huge one, is the availablity of baby's to be used as skins. Have you gone out looking for a gurreck lately? Not the weak little crazed gurrecks, the plain old gurreck? I've only seen one baby in months on endor. If you have CH's providing the kids to be used as skins there is going to be a huge shortage of certain skins, and a flood of the easy to find ones. I'm a Master BE and my alt is a Master CH and i can honestly say that after the tellhell i went through with chefs and tailors i would not like to go throught it again with BE's spotting my tag and asking me to go track down a skin for them. I can see the orders coming already because it's what i would want, "I need 10 gurrecks, 10 razor cats, 5 narglatches, 5 mereks, 5 grauls, 5 rancors, oh ya and i need 3 vir vur's for some guildmates that want lvl 70 killer bunnies, how long will it take you to get those for me?" Sorry man but that's not how i would like to spend my time as a CH, running round trying to track down kids to tame. As a BE i think are crafting system is fine, we just need some definitive answers on a few things, kind of a line to follow. If we are given this the pet validity check is irrelevent. If i the max health i can put on a non'ch pet is 1200 then fine, thats the number to shoot for and no problems, the easiest fix is to just give us BE's a number. And also i hate to say it but stiming a baby up a few lvls or ham pts or whatever sounds kinda boring to me, and i didn't see where you mentioned resists or specials, if you did i missed it and i'm sorry, but the nice part of the BE crafting system the way it is, is that we can make whatever kind of pet you want in whatever skin you want. Personally I like the cats but their resists in the wild are pretty weak, so i make myself super cats to use and have the skin i want with the resists i want and specials i want. Not too mention it's pretty fun to experiment with dna samples to see what you come up with, i have more then a few clones sitting around my lab that were nothing more than experiments for my enjoyment.

As for CH's finding a niche of their own in this game, well i don't think we have one, other than ourselves. We are a class, profession, whatever you want to call it, onto ourselves. The only people who will understand or sympathize with us is another CH. And honestly that's ok with me, i dont care what definition the devs give us, they call pikeman a hybrid class so how could they possible assign a role to CH's? Anyways i like CH and i like BE, lets get all the bugs taken care of first before we start changing things around. And if your really looking for a way to make BE's dependent on CH's go check out the BE forums and read the post to bring back Bio-Farms, CH's played a part in that, and a good one. That would be something to help everyone without any loss of fun or nerfing of professions.

Asher'

Pluto9Moon

Wed Mar 24, 2004 1:55 am

#47

That is just it Spazzer, I am not asking you to give up the sampling. You will need some sort of DNA to modify to inject into the baby. Maybe that is where this proposal is going haywire.

I am not saying anyone is bad either. The words "nerf BE" were placed into my mouth rather involuntarily, I will defend myself if you say "if you're calling for a nerf I am taking my marbles and going home" as selfishness. But I did as for something constructive to be added to this.

What I got was "hell no" and suffer. I had asked for a BE to work with me and the appearance seems to be against.

We both agree the devs borked lots of stuff. But can we both agree to fix it.

I say the sampling stays. The testing can stay. It is the final combine where I suggest it go into a Baby skin. Not a BE crafted Skin. One tiny step changed. The percentages change. But nothing is Uber until MBE. I can rewrite it with more definitive wording. But it will still remain rather vague because I have yet to sample or clone pets with my BE. The other three trees look fine. All I am saying is when you combine the final product, Tamed CH Babies would be a great addition and a definitive percentage boost within certain ranges.

When I do start I will be two boxing. I can get all the meat I want. But thanks for that heads up beause I normally just loot hides and have probably wasted some valuable resources to start.

Spazz and Castillo, I really wish you could read through that again. There is only one thing I am asking and that is our babies be used as the "skin", if that is what you use the meat for currently then think how much easier that could become for you. The DNA process could stay somewhat the same. UBER DNA means that you get the higher end of the 5% incremental bonus. Splicing a special out of a strand to make a certain special turn on. I imagine that is how it works now. Maybe not but it seems like that would be fun. Someone posted there were only three BE on his server. I cannot see how this would hurt for finding CH with babies. To me it would seem the reverse. There would be too many babies to choose from. I do not want to hurt anyones market, I want to help it. I can see how it is easy to overdetermine my motives. They do help CH in the process. Right now I think we could both agree that no CH in his right mind would purchase a pet with a specific role in mind if the CL had to be raised or stats reduced.

Spazz, I have a hard time being passive-assertive. I will apologize for that. I will not apologize for trying. And I will not apologize for saying that if you disapprove, then a counterplan is more productive than saying no and walking away.

Tell me what you see as good points. Bad points we agree that some of your fun might be taken. But since I cannot know the entire process maybe a lengthy walk through of building a pet can enlighten me and my fellow CH. I really do not want to lessen the MBE/CH. The rest of us merely have a different master for second professions. I really wanted this to be a collaboration instead it turned to more fist slamming.

Once again the devs broke it. "maybe" we can fix it.

Sign for Hutt Faction here: Hutt Faction

Not against broad changes, just profession specific ones (read as CH) that go against what we've been told in the past.
(I hired Trayson as a ghost writer for a good tagline)

meroc

Wed Mar 24, 2004 2:53 am

#48

I brought the "pet slicing" idea up over on the BE boards back in February.

The idea wasn't to do BE's out of a job in the cloning department though, it was to give CH's a boost to a wild animal so they could be more on par with what a BE can make. There are several types of wild "skins" that BE's can't make (snakes andfliers come to mind) which would give CH an exclusive market when it comes to those.

If a "pet slice" was added to retard the CL growth of a creature, that would also open up a lot more avenues for CH only tamed pets, especially if "everything" spawned babies. (Note: A really cool side benifit to this would be you could keep babies as babies.....how cute would that be!

). There are a lot of possibilities with this system when you think about it (slice in "force" genes to pets and anythings possible really).

My line of thinking on it was make the slicing CH only and "certified" so only a MCHcan have full access to the really cool stuff.

From a RP perspective, BE's would only supply the materials (as a hypodermic or something similar), the CH would need the skill and knowledge to know what to apply it to and if the animal would be strong enough to survive the process.

This would, I believe, providethe market/needthatCH's are looking for (exclusive pet types, exclusive "babies" marketand "CH enhanced" pets).

Meroc

Taipan's Pet's and Bio Tissues, Anchorhead, Tatooine 430 -5000, Ahazi
Master Bio Engineer, Master Creature Handler, Part time Pistoleer.
BECalc 2.0, the Clone and Tissue Pricing tool for Bio Engineers
Version 1.x mirrored on SWG Warcry

Spazzers

Wed Mar 24, 2004 9:29 am

#49

If you combine Meroc and Pluto's ideas I think you have a viable working system. I, as a BE can make a pet slicer or pet stim or stat adjuster. Call it what you will. It could actually be a simple addition to the tissue line of bio-engineering similar the pet stims that heal and the vitality packs. It would also eliminate the need for a bunch of new coding by the devs. Just tame your wild animal like you would normally and adjust the stats using the slicer from a BE. There would have to be a variable that allows the stats to be increased or decreased and the stat adjust shouldn't be static. Over shoot your mark and you lose. Go get another baby and try again. There should also be an inherent fail rate. We have to make it challenging or it won't be fun.

There are a large number of animals a bio-engineer can not make. Let the creature handlers hunt those and purchase a slicer off a BE vendor. A CH could very easily sell an adjusted minor worrt to a non-creature handler. Honestly, it sounds stupid, but people ask me if I can make worrts. As I said previously I've made CL70 gnorts with armor. People buy them. A creature handler has a lot more options to sell product a bio-engineer doesn't have.

Let the bio-engineers craft animals as they do now. Collecting DNA is fun as well as frustrating. The failure rate is insane and the chance of death is very high. You have to be up for the challenge. The DNA collection is just one part of creature creation. Sitting in front of a crafting station sounds boring, especially when you consider every single animal a bio-engineer makes is done by hand. Placing the DNA in the various slots, trying to figure out what resists, special attacks, andHAM values takes a lot of patients and note taking. Its the crafting process that makes bio-engineering the unique profession it is. Of course the craft system MUST be fixed. It doesn't calculate the creature level correctly and the pet validity check is destroying the creature market.

I'm all for giving the creature handlers a fair share of the animal market if that's what the creature handlers want. Again, a creature handler is not going to sell animals to another creature handler for the simple reason a creature handler can tame their own animals. Why buy something you can get for free? Actually if you take a mission you get paid to capture those babies. Your market will be non-creature handlers. Because creature handlers will tame and adjust the various stats of their wild animals with the aid of a bio-engineer the creature handler pet market for a bio-engineer will also be removed or curtailed greatly. It will be replaced by a stat adjuster or pet slicer.Creature handlers and bio-engineers will be competing for the non-creature handler market. That may or may not be a good thing. It sure would make for a dynamic economy.

Buboopadoo
HOBO Embezzler
A Simple Resource Dealer

A Developer's answer to everything:
"I can't promise to try, but I'll try to try"

Spazzers

Wed Mar 24, 2004 10:31 am

#50

Bendi,

No, the new crafting system was only live for one day. I found it hyperly easy to make CL5 and 8 animals using yard trash with that system. Unfortunately some, not all, were declared invalid. It made no sense to either myself or the creature handler I was working with.

I just read a thread where someone commented they were still making the uber CL10 animals. I got the impression from that post, which was placed today, their animals were passing the validation check. That alone tells me the pet check doesn't work.

Buboopadoo
HOBO Embezzler
A Simple Resource Dealer

A Developer's answer to everything:
"I can't promise to try, but I'll try to try"

meroc

Thu Mar 25, 2004 5:51 am

#51

In light of the revamp to the combat revamp (They nerfed a nerf....again!) this could also be a solution to the CH revamp "going off" early on us,which resulted in underpar pets (compared to thecurrent system) that we now have to use.

The current combat system is "stronger" than what our class was designed to function in, so I really hope they do something now the revamps off...

Meroc

Taipan's Pet's and Bio Tissues, Anchorhead, Tatooine 430 -5000, Ahazi
Master Bio Engineer, Master Creature Handler, Part time Pistoleer.
BECalc 2.0, the Clone and Tissue Pricing tool for Bio Engineers
Version 1.x mirrored on SWG Warcry

Bio Engineer Archive

Thread: BE CL Problem/CH Niche Answered.