Bio Engineer Archive
Thread: Combat Droids, A Bio-Engineer's Take
It is my personal opinion that TH should have thought this out a bit more befoe posting because it gets your hopes up to something that the community simply is not going to accept.
1) DE is a crafting class. CH is a combat class. BE is a crafting class. DEs are closer to BEs than a CH so stop comparing a DE to a CH.
2) TH already posted that the concern was that pets give people a free pass into areas of the game they should not be able to access. Crafting classes should not be able to effectively fight unless they spend some points. Period. This has already been addressed by the devs and the nerf is pending. Just in case you did not read TH's post, this is what he said:
Players with pets essentially get their own private MOBs (Mobile Object) to fight with them and for them. It's a player's own personal tank and it's a boost to damage and attack, a blocker for attackers and the list of advantages go on. With that being said, that's all fun stuff, so we want to keep it in and keep it fun, but make it balanced. If you are curious, there is an easy way to test how imbalanced this can get. If a player and their pet can do a whole lot of things that a two players CAN'T do, then something is wrong. Otherwise, pets become replacements for multiple players. Go out with your friends who are Creature Handlers or who have really powerful pets and play the differences with them.
Another issue that is being addressed is that Non-Creature Handlers have pets that are of such level and ability that it is a free pass into higher level content. Those two advantages alone are an invitation for every player to have pets. In any MMO, that invitation passes by word-of-mouth like yelling "fire" in a crowded theater and it cause a stampede.
DEs would fall in this area because you have no fighting skills. A level 20 something pet can get a DE to fight on a city like Lok, which definitely should not be. Did you become a DE to craft or to fight?
The nerf is going to be as follows:
* Non-creature handlers limited to level 10 pets (currently it is 15).
* Non-creature handlers get 1 active pet max, regardless of type (faction perk, creature, droid or mount).
Since DE is not a combat class you should be limited to a level 10 droid just like BEs would be. CHs should have a higher level because they are a combat class.
If the devs did anything different than this, without altering the other crafting professions at the same time, there would be an uproar in proportions I wouldn't want to deal with. If you care to prove this to yourself, post a link to this thread in the other crafting profession boards and sit back and watch. It will explode. The other crafting professions will want the equivalent.
The whole point here is to make DEs a better class. Making combat droids that are only used within the DE profession doesn't make DEs useful.
The smart thing for the devs to do, instead of adding new content to the game and making all these promises, would be to fix all the professions first so they all work they way they should. Then the devs can add more content to the game and boost different professions. I think if all the professions actually worked they way they should they could better determine what abilities should be added to each class, if any.
My only complaint is that if DEs are turned into a craft/combat profession then you end up with a totally self surficiant profession that has no need for anyone else. Indeed for a combatprofession to produce, use and be able to replace all of their weapons without external help is incredible, also if they limit combat droids to DEs only then it's gonna hurt the profession more than it'll help it since everybody who takes DEs for their own droids will make what they need themselves. Thus you'd have no combat droidmarket since non-DEs can't use combat droids and the DEs themselves can make their own.
By all means give the engineers are few perks like being able to call out two combat droids at one (one at novice and a second one at master) as well as the other utility droids. That would at least make them a very appealing profession but on the whole they shouldn't become yet another CH.
Remiel wrote:
Way off topic, considering the msg forum we're in, but since I am here..
DE's deserve a boost.. a significant boost. IF that boost moves them into an almost-hybrid-like profession that gains some combat capability through the use of droids, I am down with that.
Daishar_Valcyn wrote:
However it ends up working, any combat droids that are stronger then the upcoming non-ch pets need to be certified in a skill tree for one profession only or there's no real point in putting them in the game at all. DE's the only place it fits currently. There's been pretty vocal opposition to creating a 'DH' style class, and even if that were to be implemented it'd be far enough down the road that it doesn't help the current situation.
DE is a crafting class which is why so many of the skills needs requires crafting abilities. I looked at the skill tree - don't see anything combative there at all.
The whole point that TH was making is that no character should be overpowerful. Making a droid that is above the non-ch pets and allowing DEs to use them would do just that. It would give the person a free ticket into areas of the game they should not be able to access - ie. combat.
If DEs want to combat - they should spend the points on it just like everyone else. Crafting classes are crafters. Combat classes are fighters.I honestly don't understand why this is such a difficult concept to accept.
The definition of a DE by SOE is one that builds droids, not one that builds droids and uses them to fight.
Now I do agree that if over non-ch pets are allowed it should be in a different skill set and that skill set does not exist. A new profession would be nice. DEs would be useful by creating the droids and those who want to spend the points will go up that tree.
I agree that the optimal solution (in principle at least) would be to have a seperate profession that uses them.
May sound odd from a guy who's got CH and BE toon's on seperate accounts, but the last thing we need to do is increase pet dependency and usage a ton. If they're of any use they need to have heavy skill requirements. If they were to go DE only as the initial plan seemed to imply, they'd have to be more limited in power then what they could do if handled by a seperate tree.
*If* DE's had this functionality built in from the start, I don't think people would take issue with it as much. Molding it into them down the road makes it a bit harder for the other crafters to swallow (granted, if they could do it from the start their tree probably would have been laid out differently to give more of a 'combat' feel to parts of it). I guess my point overall is that currently, DE is the only place to reallystick those certifications without a DH class being in place.
Daishar & Jito -- Valcyn
InsomniaRado wrote:
Let's do the math.
For a CH to be able to go get the biggest, baddest pet in the game, train it, and use it in any way they see fit requires the following skill credits:
15 for novice scout, 14 to climb the hunter tree, 14 to climb the explorer tree, 6 for novice CH, 14*4 for the 4 CH trees, and 1 for master.
Adding that all up, we get 106 skill credits.
In order for a droid engineer to be able to create the biggest, baddest droid in the game, the droid engineer needs BOTH master artisan AND master DE. That's:
15 for novice artisan, 14*4 for the four artisan trees, 6 for master artisan, 6 for novice DE, 14*4 for the four DE trees, and 1 for master DE.
Adding that all up, we get 140 skill credits.
DE is paying MORE for their mastery than CH is - why shouldn't they reap benefits of similar caliber? DE's should be a little less effective in combat because they get other things with those skill credits (the ability to build basic harvestors, the ability to survey, etc), but to argue "you're a crafter you should have to spend skill credits to use your creations" is silly.
A Creature Handler DOES NOT have to spend skill credits to use his creation. Once he's able to create the pet, he's able to use it. If that's fair, then allowing DE's to use their creations is fair as well.
--Insomnia
Insomnia there is a flaw in your logic. It isn't required you take MASTER ARTISTAN. People take it as a luxury so they don't have to buy componets they need to make droids. Just like a BEdoesn't have to take artistan to make clones or tissue.
A creature handler doesn't make anything. A CH uses things already found in the game world in this case baby creatures. A CH spends points to learn the ability to tame, train, and use those resources. It's just like a marksman can use resources found in the wild (loot weapons).
A BE spends even more than CH or DE in skills just to get the core skills. Should a BE use the creatures they make. I'll say no even though since we're playing w/ DNA why can't we make a animal (over cl 15)doctile, etc. and able to be used by us.
For DEs I think the idea of combat droids,etc. is great as itfits with SWG. I don't think DEs should be the only ones able to use such droids. Droids are to be used by everyone. I would think DEs would want everyone to use such droids to push the CH and BEs out of the market. Specially with the new non-ch pet nerf the combat droid for all is looking better and better.
HaggisofAhazi wrote:
I think the answer lies in the difference between a droid and a pet.A droid is essentially a mobile computer built to do exactly what you tell it to.A pethas a mind of it's own,and without behaviour modification it will do whatever it wants. It's easier to browse the web than it is to potty train a puppy.
Think about the real world professions thatBE, CH and DEare based on."Dog Trainer" and "Genetic Engineer" are two very different professions requiring differentskill sets.The scientists that cloned Dolly the sheep probably don't have weekend jobs assheep herders. A "Hardware Engineer" on the other hand, has to have a pretty good understanding of the software required to make his creations work. If he doesn't then he's just building expensive paperweights.
I think the devs are just applying common sense to the problem. The "science" is what makes science fiction believeable. Of course "The Force" isn't science, or at least it wasn't until the whole midichlorian thing, but that is another topic for another day. Utimately not all professions will have the same abilities, otherwise we'd all be carbon copies of each other.Where's the fun in that?
Haggis
If it were real life I'd agree with all of this but uhmm...last time I checked it was a video game. A "droid" or a "pet" interact the same way in game play. They have HAM, they do damage, they follow, they attack, they stay, they group, blah blah blah. You can apply all the real life rationale you want but in the end its still a video game. A video game is supposed to be innocuous fun. I shouldn't have to be a scientist to play one on TV.
You can make all the arguements in the world why BE's should be able to tame and train their own animals or why other professions shouldn't be able to use their own products."We can make them why we they train them?" Well obviously we can't because that would totally devalue the creature handlers. The original error was making clones animals in the first place. They should have been people like in the movies. They shoved BE into the game at the last second and expected it to fly. Well it didn't and 5 months later we're still complaining about it.Its too late for allthat anyway. SWG is pet wars now and with mounts coming out it will just get worse. BE's are at the mercy of tailors, chefs, and creature handlers. That's way it is and the way it will remain.
To be honest I'mjust tiredof logging in to the game to find its changed every single time. I'm just goofing around now until my subscription expires. Anything to make my remaining time a bit more enjoyable. I'll leave the nerfing and complaining to the the rest of you.
See ya on the flip side. 
Well lets see if DE where given the abitlity to make a combat droid, how would you be able to deterimine who is qualified to use them, I think most would say maybe a combat class..... well for myself I would have to disagree and make itso that the engineers could use them, lets face it this game is based on taking an active role in the Star Wars World, I'm sorry you will not be able to that by just sitting by and tring to sell stuff to other people....Man you never be able to get any faction points or never find any holocrons(jedi) all you would do is gather resourse and sit sit around experimenting(boring)... and besides the combat classes get the benefits from our crafted goods as it stands now, so I say Hell yeah give them the droids, just wish i could use the creatures I created....
Novice BE
InsomniaRado wrote:
Let's do the math.
15 for novice artisan, 14*4 for the four artisan trees, 6 for master artisan, 6 for novice DE, 14*4 for the four DE trees, and 1 for master DE.
Adding that all up, we get 140 skill credits.
--Insomnia
Let's do the math.
15 for novice artisan. 14 points for survey 4. 15 point for novice scout. 14*4 points for scout tree. 1 point for master scout. 6 points for novice ranger. 14 points for exploration tree. 6 points for novice CH. 3*14 points for CH trees. 15 points for novice medic. 14*4 points for medic trees. 1 point for master medic.6 points fornovice doctor. 14 points for medical craftingtree. 6 point for novice BE. 4*14 points for BE trees. 1 point for BE master.
Adding that all up, we get 324 skill points. That way we to can make/do all the things we BE's need to make and tame our creations. (Ideally we should be a master doctor to make the best advanced med components for our pet medicines and a master ranger to be able to get the best DNA samples. Also soon it would be 339 skill points once we have to master CH because of the new CH nerf)
So what if you have to spend 140 points to be able to not be dependent upon anyone else. We have to spend 324 points to not be able to be dependent on others. My provider of medicines supplies (i.e. doctor) makes stims that are useable on anyone,give her XP, and heal more dammage than my pets meds. My primary customers (CH)can tame what I make for free and only bother to buy from me as a mater of convenience. ("I don't want to spend 3 hours hunting over Endor for a Gurreck, do you have one thats cheap but still good? " P.S. It takes me a lot more than 3 hours to get 5 good level 60 DNA samples) Whenall is said and done my markets are CH who don't needus and are frequently our competition, tailors who are tough tofind (and only need us for special orders) and chefs who are all but impossible to find (and don't need us and can barely use ours goods). Your market is just about everyone in the game in the game. (Extra data storage, extra item storage, crafting stations of every variety, ranged floating weapon platforms that are very good as long as you have a blocker and a lot of batteries, mobile med stations anddroid repair.I know that all but the last work well, as Iown and use droids that have all but the last.)
Level 4 tissue line. 6 tissues. 1 is broken and we've been told won't be fixed. 1 is a pet stim c that isn'tas good as the stimsdoctors make (A good stim c made by a doctor can heal anyone for over a 1000 and has more charges). 1 works quite well (scent neutralize) and 3 require large quantities of substance you basically can't get. (Milk, mollusc meat, ...) 6 of our creature are bugged and don't work. They are the only creatures that a CH can't tame on there own and so are the only creatures which might actually have some real value.
But CH comes from scout and has lots of combat effectiveness without a secondary profession. Of course, when they DO take a secondary profession they're positively deadly, but even a vanilla CH with a couple of well-managed pets can solo things that kill master melee fighters...
I'm not sure why the base class has anything to do with it.
The bottom line is that I HATE nerfs. I think nerfs as what happens when developers are lazy. I'd rather see everyone else brought up to the same level as whatever profession is currently "overpowered" than see that profession knocked down a peg. Don't nerf CH's, make everyone else as powerful as they are (per skill credit - it's all about power per skill credit).
--Insomnia
"I have no problem with DE's being able to use combat droids. I know several DE's who are working on Master DE/Master Merchant. They are giving up so many combat and scout skills (Maskscent) skills to achieve this that they can barely fend off a gnort. Being able to use a combat droid or 2 should put them right back in line with a mid-level Marksman."
So because they choose to become a Master merchant they should be given combat skills? Please tell me why a merchant needs combat skills? They choose the profession, they have to deal with the bonuses and disadvantages.
Before reading this thread I completely agreed with the topic. But after a few of the arguments I agree that a DE should probably be able to use the droids. But I also think BE's should be able to use their pets. It will matter A LOT on how powerful these droids are. If they are close toa lvl 40 creature, they are way too powerful.
DE is and should always be a crafting class. If they want to be viable in combat they can pick up a combat class. This is what I did for the limited time I put into DE. Everyone has to deal with skill points. If the devs do this wrong you could see a lot more DE's out there. If all the skills are put into 1 tree for controlling a high lvl droid, we will be back to the CH problem.
By all means give the engineers are few perks like being able to call out two combat droids at one (one at novice and a second one at master) as well as the other utility droids. That would at least make them a very appealing profession but on the whole they shouldn't become yet another CH.
Why not? You have two ways to balance the classes - nerf CH into oblivion, or elevate everyone else. I'd rather see everyone else elevated to the same level of power. Nerfs suck, we shouldn't encourage them.
Why does DE have to be a crafting class? Why can't they be a combat class?
And there's nothing wrong with a self-sufficient combat class. If the developers thought there was something wrong with a self-sufficient combat class, they wouldn't have made CH's.
As for crafters being able to use their own goods without having to spend extra skill points, that's the normal case. Currently armorsmiths can wear their armor, architects can place their harvestors, chefs can eat their food, tailors can wear their clothes, and DE's can use their droids. The only crafting classes that CAN'T use their products are weaponsmiths and BE's...we are the EXCEPTION, not the rule.
--Insomnia
I have to get in on this one, since I was at one point going DE...
Do they deserve a good product that can boost their market potential? Most definitely.
Should they be the only class to use that product? No I don't think so.
We BE's make products that take another class to use. That's why we see so many combos of BE/CH, BE/Tailor, or BE/Chef (I know there's one or two of you out there, lol). If we want to use what we make it does take another skill set to do that, so why should DE's be any different? Sure you guys have taken a back seat for the last couple patches, but crafting stations work, droid customization works (if you know how to do it), and you can make probots for lower level characters. Should you get bigger better things to do and make, yes, but not a special case because that's not fair to the rest of us. DE's don't go DE to be great in combat, you went DE to make droids.
If there's to be an uber level combat droid make it available to master marksmen and above, that would give you a good market base and keep things fair for those that learn how to fight.
But hey, who am I right?
I'm a Master CH and Master BE who busted ass to get those skills before his birthday (which is tomorrow, and I got MBE this morning), so I figure I know a little something about sacrificing skill points to use what I can make.
Thanks.
-sr