CUEmu - Thread Posts

Ikewe

Mon Nov 08, 2004 10:27 am

Maybe I should just let this drop.. and maybe I'll come back and just delete this post in a few hours but for now I just have to butt in. If Drygo wants to earn FS experience by dancing rather than by whacking things over the head why shouldn't he be allowed to do that? Becoming a Jedi or gaining FS skills doesn't have to be a grinding chore that you hate.For more than a yearwe have tried to tell people they should dance because they like it. Drygo has said he likes dancing and would rather dance and then convert that experience. Now we're going to start telling people "well you can't have fun dancing if you are just going to trade in the experience to become a Jedi" ?? Just because someone is going to trade in the experience for FS skills doesn't mean they are going to go AFK to do it. Many of us became Masters without going AFK right? So why would the FS skills be any different?

We should be encouraging people who like to dance and who are helping to make the cantinas a fun place, not trying to dictate what they must then do with that experience.

Ikewe, Master Dancer Shadowfire

Ikewe, Master Dancer, Shadowfire

When you wish upon a falling star, your dreams can come true. Unless it's really a meteorite hurtling to the Earth which will destroy all life. Then you're pretty much hosed no matter what you wish for. Unless it's death by meteor.

rayill

Mon Nov 08, 2004 10:38 am

#28

I don't want to be a Jedi. I absolutely hate the flood of Jedi and FS on the servers. I wish that the Devs had implemented something alot harder to make Jedi, but being as this is how they have made it for the development of Jedi, I'm not going to say let's take away this from entertainers. I don't think they should remove the ability for people to gain FS experience through Dancing or other entertainer skills. I think the Developers should look into and fix the ability to gain entertainment xp through illegitimate methods. I believe AFK is an illegitimate method, and that's what they should look at. Those Dancers looking to gain some of the more high end content that Jedi is considered should not be penalized because they didn't choose a combat profession or that they find entertaining more fun.

Also, please remember that not all Entertainers did enough professions to merit a "free unlock". I've only mastered 6 professions with my main character. I never persued the holo-grind, and I only did the two professions that I got from Holocrons because my character was actually working on both of them. When you are already working on Master Artisan and later Master Carbineer, it's not hard to complete them, but I never actively worked to get more than that because I played to have fun with what I WANTED to play. I didn't let the box dictate my fun. As such, when I accidentally got FS (and I really didn't want to be FS), I checked to see if I even qualified out of curiosity. I didn't qualify for any unlocks, and I'm sure more Dancers are in the same boat. I may not want FS, but that does not mean others don't want it. These people should not be denied the chance to obtain their content.

Rayill Yi'tun

Master Dancer

- I support ATK people and playstyles

Reachwind

Mon Nov 08, 2004 11:46 am

#29

While I understand Drygo's desire to have fun while getting his jedi skills... I have a big problem with letting people use any musician or dancer experience for jedi as the skill gain system works right now.

It takes no resources aside from time to get this experience. In any system where time = xp people who have the ability to leave their computer on and actively gaining xp will do so. It makes sense for people wanting FS xp to use dance or music to grind because the time investment is not an issue when you have a broadband connection and a computer you can leave unattended legally.

I think there two things that should be put to the devs on this issue... Either change how our skill xp is granted (to make it attended only) or make entertainer xp not translate to FS xp (until such time as they address unattended play).

Drygo

Mon Nov 08, 2004 11:55 am

#30

Reachwind wrote:
While I understand Drygo's desire to have fun while getting his jedi skills... I have a big problem with letting people use any musician or dancer experience for jedi as the skill gain system works right now.

It takes no resources aside from time to get this experience. In any system where time = xp people who have the ability to leave their computer on and actively gaining xp will do so. It makes sense for people wanting FS xp to use dance or music to grind because the time investment is not an issue when you have a broadband connection and a computer you can leave unattended legally.

I think there two things that should be put to the devs on this issue... Either change how our skill xp is granted (to make it attended only) or make entertainer xp not translate to FS xp (until such time as they address unattended play).

I guess the problem I have with this line of thinking is, where do we draw the line?

We have to gain experience to master our professions. People can do it afk. Should we then abolish Dancer and Musician because people can and will afk to achieve it? We have to gain experience to gain our new theatrical dances. People can do it afk. Should we then abolish the new dances because people can and will afk to achieve it? We have to dance in order to give buffs and heal. People can do it afk. Should we then remove all buffing and healing capabilities from our professions because people can and will afk to do so?

I would *think* the answer to these questions should be a resounding "no." So, why should our inclusion in the Jedi FS system be any different?

There are a multitude of reasons that people afk our professions. The main reason is simply, they *can.* The only way to get rid of afk'ing before the recursive macro ends is for the devs to remove our professions and everything that we can do mechanically in our professions. I don't want to see that happen. And, it's not logical or fair to advocate for removing bits and pieces of our inclusion in the game just because we're pissed that people can afk right now.

- I support hawtpants

Reachwind

Mon Nov 08, 2004 12:08 pm

#31

In this case though we are talking about people being able to gain experience for a DIFFERENT profession by abusing the entertainer professions. That is a CLEAR difference.

Drygo

Mon Nov 08, 2004 12:13 pm

#32

Reachwind wrote:
In this case though we are talking about people being able to gain experience for a DIFFERENT profession by abusing the entertainer professions. That is a CLEAR difference.

Technically, that is not true. While most of us agree that wound healing bonusses are pretty much useless. The fact is, it is there for the dancer or musician to use as a dancer or musician.

- I support hawtpants

Drygo

Mon Nov 08, 2004 1:15 pm

#33

I deleted this post because I don't feel like arguing.

But I vehemently disagree with what Esharra is suggesting. I don't expect the devs would ever actually make this change. And, I hope the corrs aren't actually asking for it. I'll save my "debating" on this issue for a time when I get indication that people in the higher ups are actually taking this suggestion seriously.

Message Edited by Drygo on 11-08-2004 08:50 AM

- I support hawtpants

Schardour

Mon Nov 08, 2004 1:48 pm

#34

Oooh, ooh, do red! Do red!

TIL KISMETA

lTlSlCl

A life spent making mistakes is not only more honorable,

but more useful than a life spent doing nothing.

XzXzXzXzX

Also...Tayel [PLD]

Xyrdre

Mon Nov 08, 2004 2:54 pm

#35

I think Reachwind is just saying that with the ability to abuse entertainer professions through AFKing for dance or music XP, people are rewarded with XP for another (Jedi) profession.

Yes, the wound healing is useless. But, if someone just needed another branch or two of FS skills to get the 6 needed for Padawan, there's an attraction in the Heightened Senses lines in that those can be seen as "freebies"... "I'll just play my character for the combat parts, get like 4 or 5branches in combat that way, and snooze through the other 1 or 2 in Senses, AFKing dance or music while I'm not online", and leaving yet another AFK clogging up the cantinas.

I really have to point the fault here at, once again, the macro system permitting total automation. Wish we could just be rid of it. Maybe someday.

I understand Esharra's, and others, frustration with the new hologrind. And yes,removing entertainment XP from the FS conversions lists might get rid of the new hologrinders. Course, it also gets rid of other entertainer players, those with mixed templates, from the Village content... even if it's just seen as some new content to go do, and has nothing to do with trying to be a Jedi.

From the perspective though of the entertainer player, the one who does have a mixed template of entertainer with some combat as well, that I think Drygo's position is completely valid too. If (and of course it's a big if, but bear with me) wedidn't have the AFK problems, there are ways that Dancers can get FS XP for the senses lines, and that is inclusion in the system, even if it's minimal inclusion. Sure, it's weird that to even unlock the branch with our intended healing bonuses we'd have to be Master Medics rather than Dancers, but even that aside, we can dance our way up Luck or Persuasion with much less of a template hit to get those branches unlocked.

Remember, we were completely left out of Aurillia in the beginning of all this mess, and we pitched a fit about being forgotten. I'd hate to come back now and pitch a new fit about being included... though yes, not completely included in a way tailored to our thing. Dunno... just kinda rambling the Devil's advocate here. But it seems to me that even as-is, we have more inclusion in Aurillia now than we have with the Corvette, the Geo caves, or the DWB.

I'm not sure that I'd want to send the devs a mixed message about having something for entertainers, even just the tidbits we do have, in new content. I'm sure the messages we end up sending are already mixed and confusing enough to them - we really do have a lot of different perspectives on the entertainment professions, with different agendas for all those different ways to play an entertainer. Really, that should be a strength in the entertainer professions... they attract a much wider variety of approaches in ways that it can be fun and rewarding to play, and thus can be rewarding to a greater variety of players. But at the same time, it can present a tangled web of problems in finding ways to include, and keep happy, such a diverse crowd. I can sympathize there.

All in all, I'd rather see a trend start to develop that encourages the devs tofind ways (and hopefully better ways in the future) of working good gameplay in for entertainers in global content, rather than discouraging the thought of entertainer inclusion in the first place. Let's not put the devs in a position with us, inclusion-wise, where they're damned if they do, damned if they don't. We'll lose big time in that scenario, and that's not what any of us want.

Deila Karlossi , Blue Glowie of Dancers, and become more powerful than you could possibly imagine...

Esharra

Mon Nov 08, 2004 3:33 pm

#36

Xyrdre wrote:

... just kinda rambling the Devil's advocate here.

Hey..I'm supposed to be the Devil's advocate here!

I've just been seeing an interesting trend around the "live entertainer" community lately. Maybe it has been this way all along & I'm just now noticing it. We want the devs to do something about conditions that compel players to leave their avatars unattended but not if it inhibits our gameplay. We want them to do something about recursive macros but not if it inhibits our use of recursive macros.

We want the devs to give us things to do but not if it can be done while unattended butin the same breath, some of us will say"no, we don't want that even if it can only be done attended becausesome buffbot owners might do it while attended too" (that was a tough rationalization for me to even start to understand).

Some players feel it is ok for them to AFK their way to master on a new character because they've already mastered once on another server. Others feel that it is ok to leave their avatar animating while unattended because they're only going for a shower, to pick up the kids from school or to watch a movie but they identify as live entertainers.

Either unattended play damages our professions or it doesn't. We either support it or we do not. We either accept it or we don't folks..where do we draw the line?

Message Edited by Esharra on 11-08-2004 04:35 PM

Esharra ěsh-äŕ-rä, noun
1. Entertainer
2. Bounty Hunter
3. Smuggler

"One man's oddity is another man's routine." -Bertos Goodner (a dancer)

Drygo

Mon Nov 08, 2004 3:56 pm

#37

In the post I deleted last night, I said that I would stop going afk for the 15 minutes that I do once per week to take a shower if it really bothers you that much. So far, I have stuck to that.

However, me, personally, I draw the line when people want to start taking away my content that I do, as a 99.9% live player just because it might encourage others to afk. We need to either push for afk to be ended as soon as possible, or deal with the fact that we're going to have to wait for what *will* eventually happen. What we do *not* need to do is start calling for the removal of content that live players enjoy just because it can be afk'ed. That's going WAY too far, in my opinion. Whether people want to remove buffs because people can bot, or people want to remove our inclusion in the FS content. It doesn't matter. Don't remove our abilities and our gameplay just because some people choose to abuse it. That is just wrong, wrong, and WRONG.

Because, seriously, if you are using the argument that some people afk to get force sensitive skills, and that is the reason it should be removed, then you have to keep going. You can't stop there. Buffs cause people to afk and buffbot. In fact, our *entire* skill progression can be completely and totally afk. So, why aren't you advocating the removal of our entire professions? After all, some people are *always* going to abuse this and afk until they can no longer do so. Where do *you* draw the line? Where does it stop? If it stops at FS exp only, what is the rationale? Entertainers *do* have force sensitive bonusses, so you can't use the excuse that it is not entertainer content.

Message Edited by Drygo on 11-08-2004 03:18 PM

- I support hawtpants

Oqua

Mon Nov 08, 2004 5:38 pm

#38

I know its not really my place to comment on stuffies that ya'll are talking about, and I do hate afk play (I think everyone knows that) *small smile*.

But I wanted to say when Drygo stated he was leaving, it really took the wind out of my sails. In my eyes, he is about as feisty as they come (when it comes to fighting the dreaded bot/zombie monsters). If this content helps him stay, I for one am feeling a bit better. His staying, Sirii's post in the other thread, and my beloved standing behind usreally made me feel a whole heck of a lot better.

I understand what Esharra and Saltee are saying, and I think the better thing would be to demand that nasty afk thingy being outlawed. *small nod* (but we know thats beating the proverbial dead horse with the devs....I do see your concern though about this.

It seems when we get something added to our class, it still comes back to bite us in the bootay. *sad sigh* ).

Either way, happy you are sticking around a bit more Drygo.

***side note*** I know this post really doesn't help the dilemna at hand, but I wanted to let him know that I was smiling when I saw he was going to be around a bit more.

Message Edited by Oqua on 11-08-2004 04:39 PM

Message Edited by Oqua on 11-08-2004 04:46 PM

Oqua Y Tryna Y Katya
(¯`'·.¸Taewyn's Angels¸.·'´¯
Taking care of all his wants and needs

Echinacea

Mon Nov 08, 2004 6:30 pm

#39

Reachwind wrote:
In this case though we are talking about people being able to gain experience for a DIFFERENT profession by abusing the entertainer professions. That is a CLEAR difference.

Okay, now it's my turn to be snarky. (And yes, Esharra, you were being snarky at Drygo. Believe me, I know snarky. You were it.)

I'd have more respect for your opinion, Sal'tee, if you hadn't said you quit and would come back later when things were better. Nothing's changed, things aren't better yet,kkthxbai.

In case all you people haveforgotten, combat xp can be AFK'd quite easily. Doesn't even take the macros it takes to keep dancing/playing. Maybe a /loot macro to keep you online, but other than that...nope. And combat can fill up half of the available FS trees. And get you loot into the bargain.

I want the Healing line in Enhanced Senses. Nothing else, I think the other lines are useless and stupid. I want it because it applies to the one class that I've pursued since beta: Entertainer. We had to whine hard enough to get that useless wound healing (which a combat medic who just blackbarred herself mind healing probably wouldn't consider all that useless!) that I seriously resent the attempts of pious, ATK fanatics trying to remove the only legitimate outlet I have for acheiving that one line of bonuses without completely wrecking my skill set. I refused to grind out Doctor 0-0-0-3 in Phase 1 because I won't give up my sword-slinging or musicking. I don't believe my eyes when I see performers advocating the revocation of our minimalist inclusion in Aurellia.

I really never expected this kind of face-spiting nasal amputation out of even a miniscule portion of the community. I'm completely gob-smacked.

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