Bio Engineer Archive
Thread: Priciing Scheme for tissues and Additves?
Dsabre wrote:
2) BE tissues (like it or not) are a SUBCOMPONENT. as of now, BE's don't have any serious dependencies on other professions...at the rate the devs have been implementing this...do not expect it to last long. for those who have been less than cordial to the real chefs...do not expect to be treated any better if you ever need a subcomponent from chefs. I personally have no problems selling any number of schematics for any subcomponent no matter what profession...not wanting to sell schematics for finished products I can completely understand, and respect. you should have pride in what you do...no questions there...but when it comes to assisting other professions...
Completely untrue. In fact, we have the *exact* same relationship with doctors that chefs have with us. We have a product that is in very very high demand (pet stims). Yes, just about all BE's can say "geez, I can't keep them in stock!" just like you guys do. We can make all the components ourselves, and come upwith weak, undesirable stims, we can pay much more for advanced component (yep *gasp* factory runs and a *gasp* supplier to deal with) made by master doctors that boost our stims up to a power that is much much more desirable, or we can add doctor to our template and by self-reliant. When I was running a big traffic store in Coronet before getting somewhat burned out I had not one, not two, but three different doctor suppliers of medical subcomponents. Curiously, I see very very few bio engineers that have gone the "add doctor to the template" route, most of us buy or trade for them with doctors. Do you know how many threads I've seen on this forum regarding the prices of doctor made sub-components in the 5 months I've been here? Zero, zip. You are welcome to do the search yourself and easily verify this.
When I add 3 advanced master doctor made components to my stim B's for example, they go from around 18/650 to about 30/800 yet the amount I net from selling those is actually almost identical then when I sell the 18/650 ones. Yes, you read that correctly, very close to 0% markup on the doctor made components. The reason why I choose to price the way I do, and carry these better products, has nothing to do with profit, it has to do with me being able to feel like I'm offering a better product to customers (and even for my own use). Plus the fact that the profit that we make from the "base" cost of our pet stims is very very good money. I'm not trying to paint myself as a saint here, my prices are very average from all the pet stim pricing threads I've seen here. Most BE's do the same.
Message Edited by ArthurDentOnBria on 02-21-2004 01:54 PM
ArthurDentOnBria wrote:Completely untrue. In fact, we have the *exact* same relationship with doctors that chefs have with us. We have a product that is in very very high demand (pet stims). Yes, just about all BE's can say "geez, I can't keep them in stock!" just like you guys do. We can make all the components ourselves, and come up with weak, undesirable stims, we can pay much more for advanced component (yep *gasp* factory runs and a *gasp* supplier to deal with) made by master doctors that boost our stims up to a power that is much much more desirable, or we can add doctor to our template and by self-reliant. When I was running a big traffic store in Coronet before getting somewhat burned out I had not one, not two, but three different doctor suppliers of medical subcomponents. Curiously, I see very very few bio engineers that have gone the "add doctor to the template" route, most of us buy or trade for them with doctors. Do you know how many threads I've seen on this forum regarding the prices of doctor made sub-components in the 5 months I've been here? Zero, zip. You are welcome to do the search yourself and easily verify this.
no, its not the same...pet stims represent only 1 aspect of what a BE can do...
do you require doctors to make EVERYTHING...not just stims, I'm talking about every single item that your profession can make, pets, tissues, everything.
pet stims will never be as much in demand as foods were/are...simply fact. pet stims are essentially for 1 profession...even more so since the CH/wild pet nerf. do doctors take the same route some BE's have taken...the "I think I deserve 50% of the difference in price" just to make a schematic...
not all BE's are price gouging just like not all chefs are price gauging...do you know why there hasn't been any debates over doctor subcomps...because doctors have never tried to hold BE's over a barrel, like some BE's are trying to do to chefs.
not many BE's have to add doctor to their template...there are a lot of doctors, and many will gladly take a break from insane buffing lines to whip up a schematic or 2.
then theres the pet crafting part of BE...I think the new system...while insanely complex looks like its also a lot of fun, and very challenging...
point being...BE's have 3 completely different things they can do, doctors have 2 basic things they can do...chefs...well we only have 1. If BE were only about making tissues...fine thats a finished product, take pride in it, sell it for what you want.
how many chefs can find even 1 reasonable BE to work with...let alone 3.
if you sell for reasonable prices (250k for just a schematic when the customer supplies ALL the resources is not reasonable), thats great...but BE's all over are very quickly realizing they WILL get burned out very very very quickly trying to keep a chef supplied if they produce the tissues themselves. transportation makes purchasing bulk already manufactured tissues very problematic...many chefs feel that 50k for a schematic when the chef supplies all the resources is fair, not sure how BE's feel...but 50k for a few minutes worth of time seems more than reasonable...less stressful, and its 100% profit.
and lets not forget chefs also need to find a tailor...have merchants skills, and perhaps even a master artisan once barrels get fixed...BE's have 1 optional dependency...and thats only if a BE chooses to pursue the pet stim market.
Not sure where you got your info MS, but Master Chef only takes 92 SP's to get to, MBE takes 121. You could just take the Tissue line and the Engineering Techniques lines, but then you won't be a Master BE.
MutantSquirrel wrote:
2) Chefs will give up on trying to contract with BE's and pick up BE in order to make the supplements themselves. (For a master Chef to makeall yoursupplements, it is far fewer skill points than a master BE has to use to make all our foods).
ArthurDentOnBria wrote:Dsabre,
Why is it always the person wanting to *buy* a schematic that thinks that selling a schematic is such a great idea. Please show me a single chef who has posted "WTS Varasian brandy schematic, 50k" on a galaxy trade board (any galaxy) and I'll agree with you.
Quick lesson in skill point requirements and "optional dependencies" as you put it since you brought this up:
Master Chef (minimum skill point outlay): novice artisan (15) + dom arts 4 (14) + chef tree (63) = 92
Bio Engineer (minimum skill point outlay): novice medic (15) + novice scout (15) + hunting 1-4 (14) + medical crafting 1-4 (14) + bio engineer tree (63) = 121
Other "required" skills needed to simply have your own shop and harvest your own flora:Chef: survey 1-4 (14), business 1-4 (14), novice merchant (6) = 112BE: novice artisan (15), survey 1-4 (14), business 1-4 (14), novice merchant (6) = 170Even if you want to then argue that a chef needs engineering and master artisan, that's still only an additional 20 skill points which means its 170 vs 132, and every BE knows that if they want to sell pets, they also need exploration 1-4 which tacks on an additional 14 skill points to the requirements of what you need.
simple answer for why no chef wants to sell a schematic of brandy...its not just 1 schematic...to use 1 schematic of BSN, 1 full schematic...you need 7 schematics total...8 counting the BSN...add to that the fact that you need to spend quite a long time sitting next to 2 different types of factories just to produce those schematics...and stop factory runs early...something thats always been problematic (split crates, wrong number of manufactured items...etc).
1 run BSN...which gets put into medium additive (chef schem), then you need 2 full schems of trim for use in 1 schem of casks. add to that 2 full schems of alchohol...and then you're finally ready for the final brandy schem. if someone just wanted a brandy schem...sure 50k...it won't do anything for you at all...but if they just wanted just that schem, that'd be fine by me....well wait, that wouldn't...I'd want to be compensated for having to sit next to a pair of factories for about 1/2 an hour or so...so if its 50k for 2 minutes...I think 300k for the brandy schematic would be fair (15x as long should be 15x the price since resources aren't a factor)and another 50k each for the other schematics....try asking a chef for an alchohol schematic...or something that has a similar time requirement.
if tissues were the same way...I wouldn't want to even think about buying a schematic...ever...I'd rather pay the price for the tissues themselves. even now if it were possible to find BE's that could keep the level of production going needed to supply even 1 chef...it'd be more worthwhile to the chef to simply buy the finished tissues. simple fact is there are more chefs that won't get burnt out by chef production levels than BE's.
don't even try the whole skill point approach...BE tissues are 1/3 things BE's can do...1/4 if you want to count tailor and chef tissues seperately...so to be able to do as many different things...a chef would need master artisan, tailor to formal 1, and some merchant skills (you don't need novice merchant...buisiness 3 is enough). comparing BE skill points to chef skill points is like comparing BH skill points to carbineer skill points (or riflemen, or pistoleers)...chefs have 1 aspect to them, BE's have either 3 or 4 depending on how you want to look at it...so of course it requires more skill points. if you can do a wider variety of things...you should have to spend more skill points to do so....not only that but you forgot to add novice tailor, and formal 1 for trim. then consider the lots required to keep up production....pet stims...maybe 3-5 factories to keep up, 3 for storage, and 3 for harvesters. compare to the lot requirements for the busier chefs...5 for storage, 6 for factories, and 9 for harvesters...and you still have to pay resource miners (lot numbers are pre-patch since its too early to tell what actual production levels will be after the patch)
Message Edited by Dsabre on 02-21-2004 05:02 PM
My thinking is along these lines:
I'll charge what I think the market will bear, same as "real life".
If things shoot out the door, they are obviously too cheap, so I'll nudge the price up.
If they sit for long periods, they are obviously too dear, so I'll nudge it down.
At the end of the day, I'm not a "not-for-profit" organisation, so I'm in it to make money, cost plus 20% is only a starting point, not a straight jacket...
Bill Gates didn't become rich because Windows is worth what it's sold for, it because Windows is sold for what the market will bear, which happens to be a lot more than what one "unit" of Windows is worth to produce. Not that I'm out to be an SWG "Bill Gates"...
meroc wrote:My thinking is along these lines:
I'll charge what I think the market will bear, same as "real life".
If things shoot out the door, they are obviously too cheap, so I'll nudge the price up.
If they sit for long periods, they are obviously too dear, so I'll nudge it down.
At the end of the day, I'm not a "not-for-profit" organisation, so I'm in it to make money, cost plus 20% is only a starting point, not a straight jacket...
Bill Gates didn't become rich because Windows is worth what it's sold for, it because Windows is sold for what the market will bear, which happens to be a lot more than what one "unit" of Windows is worth to produce. Not that I'm out to be an SWG "Bill Gates"...
as well you should...BE's selling tissues themselves for 40k+ a crate...thats more than a fair price...it takes time, effort, and in many cases help to acquire the amounts of meat required to make a good sized run of tissues. if a BE CAN make 40 crates of identical tissues...and probably deliver as well since chefs have the same storage issues as some BE's have...you could probably expect 50k a crate, and it wouldn't too unreasonable.
but realize this...any increase in tissue price will affect chefs, and if tissue prices go too far...those 300k/crate prices will be here to stay, they won't drop or go away...they may even go up in the long run. BE tissues are "optional" just the same way that high quality DNA is optional when making pets...sure chefs can do it...it just won't sell unless theres nothing better available, regardless of price. the problem chefs have...and BE's will soon realize (if they haven't already) is that a BE would be lucky to be able to supply 1 chef with the tissues they need...seriously. 20k meat is not easy to come by...especially all of 1 type. Chefs aren't pissed off at BE's that sell crates of tissues for 40k or 50k...not by a long shot...chefs are very very very upset by BE's (even if its only a few) that think 250k per schematic is fair...when they don't even supply the resources, or the ones that came onto the chef forums to call all of us price gaugers, etc.
if some BE's feel I've been doing the same here...thats fine, they can consider it retribution or whatever for what some BE's did on the chef forums.
the one thing I hope BE's got out of my posts is the emphasis on the volume involved in BE tissues...and that BE's can help to stop the price gaugers (just don't sell or do buisiness with them...as opposed to charging more which hurts all chefs...the non price gaugers more....a lot more...than the price gaugers).
chefs won't bite your head off if you're a BE and post on the chef forums...as long as you post something constructive...if you won't make schematics, thats fine...if you'll make schematics, but charge for them...you can supply a lot more chefs than just by making the tissues, and thats fine too (as long as prices for schematics are reasonable...ex. 100k might be ok for some chefs...but 50k is probably closer to what most chefs are willing to pay).
just like BE's not all chefs price gauge...but the ones that do aren't doing much for the general opinion of your profession. just for an example...BSN needs 80 resources, there was a BE that posted a possible price of 1000 creds per BSN, at that price the cpu works out to 12.5 cpu...others were posting numbers closer to 2k per tissue...which would put it at 25 cpu. vasarian brandy in casks needs 260 resources (non enhanced) and 80k or so per crate seems to be fairly common...at that price it works out to 12.3 or so cpu...for enhanced brandy its 320 resources...and at the inflated price of 300k per crate it comes to...37.5 cpu (as I stated...inflated price...hopefully won't last long)...but more realistically 175k per crate (avg of the lower end prices stated on the chef forums), and that comes to 21 cpu or so...less than the 2k per tissue cpu price.
I know it doesn't include things like factory time, resource scarcity, etc...but just from a purely cpu standpoint...selling tissues for even 2k per tissue is making more profit cpu wise than the chefs charging 175k per crate. and as I'm sure BE's are well aware of by now...those that can pay more...are going to get more of the good resources...and thus be able to keep a stocked vendor, etc...and well the reasonable chefs will eventually go poof from trying to stay reasonably priced...but having to pay prices as a result of price gauging on both sides.
Dsabre wrote:
as well you should...BE's selling tissues themselves for 40k+ a crate...thats more than a fair price...it takes time, effort, and in many cases help to acquire the amounts of meat required to make a good sized run of tissues. if a BE CAN make 40 crates of identical tissues...and probably deliver as well since chefs have the same storage issues as some BE's have...you could probably expect 50k a crate, and it wouldn't too unreasonable.
ArthurDentOnBria wrote:
Nardjis wrote:
500k per crate? I am on the wrong server
Shoot, sorry guys, I apologize for once again underestimating chef greed. Chefs are now charging 625k/crate of brandy on my server.
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=bria_trade&message.id=46457&highlight=brandy#M46457
It must be because those evil BE's charge so much for additives huh? Yea, that must be it. I'll bet his BE is charging him 500k for a crate of additives.
Message Edited by ArthurDentOnBria on 02-20-2004 07:32 AM
Let's be sure to compare apples to apples here.. the brandy that works out to 625K per crate is in stacks of 77 (that's using a cask and the BE additive for quantity). So the one crate is 1925 uses at 324cr a use. I'm charging 225cr a use for the +200 brandy so he is higher than me, but I think I'm on the cheap side (I also don't stock much brandy).
Now, granted, one single BE tissue does increase the quantity from 21-ish to 77. So the profit margin goes way up by adding a BE tissue.
Basically I don't think this is about gouging it's about poor design. BE tissues should not have a such a drastic effect on chef foods. I can make a 7-use stack using small glass, a 21-use stack using a cask, or a 77 use stack using a cask and a BE tissue. If you try to price on a per resource basis, then it just doesn't work out. The BE tissues have a huge multiplier effect both on buff size and stack size that throw the calculation all out of whack.
Or look at it another way. I can make a 21 stack of +400 brandy out of 325 resources, or I can make a 77 stack of +200 brandy out of 325 resources. Even if you double up the 2nd brandy, you get 38 uses of +400. It just doesn't scale right. I've opted to price my brandy by use for the time being, and I'm frankly tired of making the stuff. Since I'm a tailor and chef, with a BE on a second account, I do all the factory runs myself.I feel like I spend all my time feeding the various factories and trying to find resources. I haven't made half of the other foods I want to try out. So, I think I'm going to stock small quantities of non-BE brandy, and make BE every once in a while on special order. I'm sick to death of the stuff and I've probably only done 3 or 4 runs of 4-8 crates.
AnitaSWG wrote:
Let's be sure to compare apples to apples here.. the brandy that works out to 625K per crate is in stacks of 77 (that's using a cask and the BE additive for quantity). So the one crate is 1925 uses at 324cr a use. I'm charging 225cr a use for the +200 brandy so he is higher than me, but I think I'm on the cheap side (I also don't stock much brandy).
Now, granted, one single BE tissue does increase the quantity from 21-ish to 77. So the profit margin goes way up by adding a BE tissue.
This is my point. It's really interesting to read the chefs talk about how they price things.
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=chef&message.id=28465
Some of them talk about pricing based on material cost, but most either use some sort of rationalization based on "perceived benefit to the customer" type of formula (charges * power), or based on "what the customer will pay". You know, the old "keep rasing your prices until you can keep up with demand" type of thing.
I don't have any problem with that, but what I have a problem with is then when a chef bases his product on such a calculation, he/she then turns around and expects his suppliers to NOT price in this fashion. What's good for the goose is good for the gander is it not?
And by the way, I totally agree about how out of whack things are balance-wise. I think BE additives add way to much power (half or a third of what they do now would be more appropriate), and I also think that a mixology 3 chef item like that bestows way too much benefit relative to where it is in the tree and the materials required in making it is insane. But oh well, that's the way things are for now. Personally I think and hope it gets nerfed, and I'll bet a lot of chefs do too so they can go back to making a wider variety of foods and drinks 
ArthurDentOnBria wrote:
AnitaSWG wrote:Let's be sure to compare apples to apples here.. the brandy that works out to 625K per crate is in stacks of 77 (that's using a cask and the BE additive for quantity). So the one crate is 1925 uses at 324cr a use. I'm charging 225cr a use for the +200 brandy so he is higher than me, but I think I'm on the cheap side (I also don't stock much brandy).
Now, granted, one single BE tissue does increase the quantity from 21-ish to 77. So the profit margin goes way up by adding a BE tissue.
This is my point. It's really interesting to read the chefs talk about how they price things.
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=chef&message.id=28465
Some of them talk about pricing based on material cost, but most either use some sort of rationalization based on "perceived benefit to the customer" type of formula (charges * power), or based on "what the customer will pay". You know, the old "keep rasing your prices until you can keep up with demand" type of thing.
I don't have any problem with that, but what I have a problem with is then when a chef bases his product on such a calculation, he/she then turns around and expects his suppliers to NOT price in this fashion. What's good for the goose is good for the gander is it not?
And by the way, I totally agree about how out of whack things are balance-wise. I think BE additives add way to much power (half or a third of what they do now would be more appropriate), and I also think that a mixology 3 chef item like that bestows way too much benefit relative to where it is in the tree and the materials required in making it is insane. But oh well, that's the way things are for now. Personally I think and hope it gets nerfed, and I'll bet a lot of chefs do too so they can go back to making a wider variety of foods and drinks
actually one of the easiest ways to tell a serious long term chef apart from a "fad of the moment" chef is quite simply put...which tissue they choose to use (assuming they can get tissues).
a profit mongering chef will definately seek out a lot of the quantity tissues...they add a lot of uses...and potentially increase the profit level exponentially. most chefs will however tend towards the nutritional ones (power boost).
chefs aren't very happy about the non-parity of BE tissues...the only really viable ones are in the nutritional line....if filling tissues didn't require 2 specific kinds of meat...filling would most likely be just as popular as the nutritional tissues.
most chefs do not want to see brandy nerfed...for those that did not keep up with the chef forums during the testing of publish 6...the devs purposely left the base numbers (particularly filling) more towards the "crap" end...not really even average. brandy used to have the same level of power...but only a low 30's for filling (meaning you could take 3 at once...or depending on the resources used..4 at a time). it was changed to the 50 or so filling it has now along with most other chef foods receiving similar treatment with the understanding that if it proved to be too underpowered (and according to some even the devs admitted that they low balled all the numbers so that they could improve foods as needed rather than nerf foods later) they would be improved.
however as it has very quickly been proven...regardless of the power of brandy...most of the food end is woefully underpowered...dodge/accuracy foods/drinks don't work...the crafter/entertainer foods/drinks are kind of a joke compared to their resource costs...and the health/action versions of brandy require very specific...very difficult to obtain resources (reptillian meat, and wood...while wood isn't hard to get...good wood is...as no chefs have any really large stocks of it pre-patch).
nerfing the power of the BE nutritional tissues isn't going to do much...other than return the usage of BE tissues to where it used to be...only as a novelty when a customer specifically requests it, and brings the tissues themselves. brandy isn't overpowered...there just isn't anything thats really worth it as an alternative...flameout is situational, the health/action drinks are too difficult to mass produce (and doctors can do it better for longer anyway...so why bother)...and most of the other drinks are just too mediocre to really give any serious production to.
foods...the other 1/2 of the stomach...well aside from synthsteak, there really isn't much to get excited about...the dodge foods don't work...smuggler's delight doesn't work...havla is fun, it works...but like flameout, thakitilo...its situational.
also when considering what brandy is selling for...try seeing if the person selling is really a chef...theres a lot of people that like to buy out stocks...and then resell for a huge profit (see krayt tissues/pearls, crystals, or more blatantly...SEA particularly clothing ones, etc for examples of this). or people that special order bulk amounts from a reasonable chef...only to turn around and up the price by 200-300%.