Bio Engineer Archive
Thread: NancyJ, we may have a problem...
Kuu wrote:
The solution, which will never happen, is anything but simple. Basically, we need to drop the whole DBNA sampling thing, and work on creature babies directly. Kind of like Image Designers, only on pet stats. but again, that would be an intense, involved code change, so won't happen.
Kuu
I shouldn't post when tired. I made a bad analogy here; I didn't mean us being image designeers for pets in the cosmetic way, so much as the way their new interface works, especially on thigns like stat migration. Someone else in the thread reffered to it as gene splicing, and that is what I had in mind, where the CH could go out and tame the uber-rare bull rancor or whatnot, then bring it to his handy master BE who can then twiddle with it's stats, splice out unwanted specials and replace them with others, and so on. I do not see how this wouldn't be an effective compromise; we are still very useful in the pet market, but their ability to tame wild creatures isn't trivialised. I am both CH and BE. I like being a CH because I do like to find the babies, tame them, and watch them grow. I like being a BE because we have so much versatility in what we do, from tissues to ultra-specialised pets.
Honestly, the BEs who say that our pets should always be better and refuse to compromise are just as bad to the situation as the CHs who insist wild tames should always be better than our pets. It is a semi-valid point to say that CHs are the only profession that can "craft" their own pets, but it has been so since before BEs existed. You cannot just discount the factors of a class that has been around, and nerfed, as much as CHs have been. At the same time, CHs can't just discount us because they have been nerfed a lot and because they feel that we shouldn't be able to make useful pets.
Compromise is the name of this game, and a solution where they get to keep taming wild and rare pets, and we get to keep being the people who make good pets, mix together. And that leads straight to some kind of dna twiddling on tamed creatures. We get a screen like the IDs have, where we can do everything from color to size to HAM to specials and whatnot. CHs come to us with the pet they tame, and we make it better...
This would fix a lot of problems. Really, the system we have now is nice, but it's also broken in many ways, and extremely hard to understand in others. Noone, even the people who coded it, seems to really understand the CL system, for instance. And DNA sample storage is through the roof! I am into my second factory storing just DNA!
So IMHO that is what needs doing. However, I honestly doubt it will happen, because it is a massive code change in two professions. It's not a "simple fix", which means it would be after publish 10, after the GCW revamp, after the smuggler revamp, after, well, EVERYTHING on the docket currently, so we wouldn't even hve a CHANCE to see it within the next 18-odd months.
So, the system we have will stay, and they will find some small way to make CH tames more effective in relation to our pets. And, at some point, they will nerf the ultra non-ch pets back to where they belong.
Just my .02, and thanks for the 1-star on my first post! =)
Kuu
Kuu wrote:
Honestly, the BEs who say that our pets should always be better and refuse to compromise are just as bad to the situation as the CHs who insist wild tames should always be better than our pets.
No, CHs who think that they should be able to loot (tame) weapons (pets) better than what can be crafted are the ones who are a bit out there. It would be comperable to me expecting to loot a better pistol that what I can buy from a weaponsmith. If crafted items aren't better than looted items, then this becomes a loot centric game and crafting isn't a real skill, just a side hobbie (see EQ). As it is, there are wild pets which can be tamed that have specials BEs can't provide, and there are the rare collectables which many CHs are constantly trying to capture. To top it off, the difference between BE creatures and wild ones aren't nearly as large as the difference between most looted weapons and crafted ones.
I am both an MCH and MBE, yet most of my pets are tamed pets. I have had many of them a long time, and they have sentimental value, while I also have a few extinct pets (and am out frequently looking for rares). So I have a good understanding on what is happening on both sides of the argument.
Suenr wrote:
It would be comperable to me expecting to loot a better pistol that what I can buy from a weaponsmith. If crafted items aren't better than looted items, then this becomes a loot centric game and crafting isn't a real skill, just a side hobbie (see EQ).
This is exactly right, and unfortunately, this appears to be where we're heading. This problem used to be unique to the BE/CH relationship and this was traditionally the argument that BE's used (a BE can neither wield nor tame a pet and we pay hundreds of skill points for the privaledge of only making pets, in what way is it "balanced" for a class that already has the privaledge of wielding and taming the best pets, at a lower skill point cost, to also loot the best pets as well?). However, now we really are getting to the point where to get the best armor, weapons, vehicles, clothing, heck even house decorations, you need to pull out the heavy artillary and blast a ton of big uglies. And SOE is convinced that this is the way it should be. If you look at the latest chat log, they mention expanding the role of loot in the game. Bye bye crafters.
ArthurDentOnBria wrote:
Suenr wrote:
It would be comperable to me expecting to loot a better pistol that what I can buy from a weaponsmith. If crafted items aren't better than looted items, then this becomes a loot centric game and crafting isn't a real skill, just a side hobbie (see EQ).This is exactly right, and unfortunately, this appears to be where we're heading. This problem used to be unique to the BE/CH relationship and this was traditionally the argument that BE's used (a BE can neither wield nor tame a pet and we pay hundreds of skill points for the privaledge of only making pets, in what way is it "balanced" for a class that already has the privaledge of wielding and taming the best pets, at a lower skill point cost, to also loot the best pets as well?). However, now we really are getting to the point where to get the best armor, weapons, vehicles, clothing, heck even house decorations, you need to pull out the heavy artillary and blast a ton of big uglies. And SOE is convinced that this is the way it should be. If you look at the latest chat log, they mention expanding the role of loot in the game. Bye bye crafters.
Man, I am depressed now
Just wanted to weigh in here, I rarely post but I feel a lot of people are missing the true issue. I am a MCH/Master Ranger on Intrepid. To give a quick back ground, I have been an MCH for quite a while, since a few months after launch. I use both wild and BE pets and have worked with many BE's on my server to aquire new pets as your collective understanding improves in your very complex crafting system.
The issue as I see it, stems from why the big CH nerf originally came about. Whether right or wrong, that nerf was very, very painful to live through and has scarred many players greatly, please show a little compassion as many are still trying to cope with it. To sum it up, the nerf came due to outcries that too many pets were in the game, which made it feel not "starwarsy" enough for some and it was overpowering the game due to dabblers that could take one or two trees of CH and then master a couple combat professions and easily solo anything in the game. That was the core reason as I see it.
Now this had several positives and I was for getting rid of the dabblers as they are the same in my eyes as holo grinders are to so many crafting professions. The revamp of the skill tree did this well, although, accompanied by the creature balance all but destroyed the profession. Honestly, look around their are hardly any pets around anymore and those that are, are most likely BE pets or status pets you pull out at starport.
Now shortly following this nerf, came the BE revamp and for alot of CH's this was a very positive thing. We were able to be at least somewhat effective again in PvE with the early BE pets and they did not seem to imbalanced anything. Now just like everything in MMO, over time very intelligent people figure out the system and max out what can be made. (And I don't think we are maxed out yet.) This brought about CL10 pets with 10k HAM and 60 Kinetic resists or CL20's pets that have Light Armor and 60 Kinetic with 11k hams. Now, these pets undermined the changes that were made to the CH tree to elimiate dabblers. This is the true issue. (Just incase you dont know the changes made it so that for each tree of the Ch you climb you got to control 12 Challenge levels of pets plus the novice 12, so 24 CL total for one tree, sound like a familiar number.) Now as you can see, you can once again take one tree of CH and control a Light armor pet that is as good if not twice as good as a wild gurreck at CL50.
Now bear with me here. This impact did not have as huge an effect as I fear it will soon. Since due to other nerfs, or other class features, pets have become pointless in PvP, unless you want to apply specials or some very short time frame support, say 10 seconds. What CH's fear is that once the famous combat balance hits and everything is brought in line with CH, since we where balanced 9-12months early. That people will then see the value of these low level, awesome stat pets, and the dablers will return to the CH community. Thus, the painful cycle comes full circle and the community will once again call for a nerf of the CH class as their will be too many pets around and the dablers will be overpowered.
Can you see the fear the CH's have? With compassion can you see that they (we) do not want to go through this again if at all possible. I think the CH's are just very wary of any changes and are very parinoid right now. You have seen them go from the most popular class to the bottem five I would bet.
As far as the feelings between the CH's and BE's I must say don't let a few ruin it for the communities. I have great respect and relations with quite a few BE's on my server. I am sure there are some from each side that will never like each other. There are alot of BE's I know that do not want anything to do with pet creations or stims. They are in it for the tissues and chef components, where the real money is they say. And it is hard now a days to find pet stims for sale, and even rarer to find quality BE pets that are above CL10 or CL25. A lot of that honestly is due to the shrinking market as CH's drop one by one.
Well just wanted to layout what I think the true underlying issue is that CH's want to address. It is just covered by all the small stuff and bickerings that the two communities have had. It is complex and I hope we can come up with a solution that works for both communities. I like my BE pets just as much as my wild pets. I would just like to be able to use both effectively in combat. Narrow the gap a bit. Instead of 10:1 or 5:1 power ratio BE to Wild, maybe 3:1 or 1.5:1. Or somehow reverse the thought process of CL level range and make it so that the true customization and maxed out results can happen in the CL40-CL70 range since that is where the real lack of wild pets is and also the biggest skill point sink. I agree BE pets should be alot more powerful and keep the awesome customization ability you guys have but someway to limit the extreme at the low CL range. Just my thoughts....
-Kepp Nodaway
Master Ranger/MCH
KeppNodaway wrote:
This brought about CL10 pets with 10k HAM and 60 Kinetic resists or CL20's pets that have Light Armor and 60 Kinetic with 11k hams. Now, these pets undermined the changes that were made to the CH tree to elimiate dabblers. This is the true issue.
What CH's fear is that once the famous combat balance hits and everything is brought in line with CH, since we where balanced 9-12months early. That people will then see the value of these low level, awesome stat pets, and the dablers will return to the CH community.
There are alot of BE's I know that do not want anything to do with pet creations or stims. They are in it for the tissues and chef components, where the real money is they say.