Bio Engineer Archive
Thread: NancyJ, we may have a problem...
Page 1 of 2
ScoutMastr
Sat Jul 17, 2004 3:43 pm
#1
/sigh, this saddens me because it comes from the CH correspondent.
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=creature_handler&message.id=188651#M188651
I just don't understand how so many of my fellow CH's look at BE pets this way...do they not understand why we chose this profession? Why nerf those that are trying to help you?
droid327
Sat Jul 17, 2004 3:49 pm
#2
heh because they dont want to have to PAY for their good pets, they just want to go out and pick them off the tree =)
Zadokk
Sat Jul 17, 2004 3:59 pm
#3
the problem with many professions is the 'me me me me' attitude where many people dont want to spend money on things which they can get themselves for free / cheaper. For instance, small-time doctors will have basic scout skills so that they can gather enough res to make their own buff packs (or get a friend to do it in exchange for free buffs etc). You will only see big time names saying that they are willing to pay xx cpu for a resource. Unfortunately what this means is inflated prices and general divide amongst the community. There is no easy solution unfortunately.
meh, ive stopped making pets for a while - started making additivies and tissues, but thats probably because im not selling as much pets as usual. It seems that there is only a market out there for pets that CH's cant tame or there are poor examples of in the wild (i.e. kimos / rancs).
NancyJ
Sat Jul 17, 2004 4:03 pm
#4
Please try to see this situation from Vertex's pov.
Bugs in the pet crafting system allow us to create creatures that are far above the intended power for their level.
At the sub-10 level this greatly devalues the CH skill set and you have to understand this is the reason for their hostility.
In essence we have no one to blame but ourselves, we know our products are overpowered, we know in many cases that they're just plain bugged but we still strive to push the system as far as we can, that is the nature of bioengineers, we constantly try to be as good as we can but in doing so we are hurting CHs and therefore hurting ourselves in the long run.
Now, please dont take this to mean that I think BE pets should eb the same as wild pets at the same CL, but we dont really know the devs intention with the system, we've all seen the 15% better than their wild counterparts stat floating around but has anyone actually seen where that comes from? I certainly havent.
It could be that BE's are just supposed to be able to provide wild skins in levels not normally available, with specials that a creature wouldnt have in the wild or with specialised stats.
Without a direct comment we just dont know, but if the 15% thing holds true then you cant deny that what we are capable of far exceeds that margin.
I will deal with this more in the morning, its midnight here, but please before you all go jump on the CH forum and rant and rave and create more hostility between our professions, please try to see things from their perspective.
Bugs in the pet crafting system allow us to create creatures that are far above the intended power for their level.
At the sub-10 level this greatly devalues the CH skill set and you have to understand this is the reason for their hostility.
In essence we have no one to blame but ourselves, we know our products are overpowered, we know in many cases that they're just plain bugged but we still strive to push the system as far as we can, that is the nature of bioengineers, we constantly try to be as good as we can but in doing so we are hurting CHs and therefore hurting ourselves in the long run.
Now, please dont take this to mean that I think BE pets should eb the same as wild pets at the same CL, but we dont really know the devs intention with the system, we've all seen the 15% better than their wild counterparts stat floating around but has anyone actually seen where that comes from? I certainly havent.
It could be that BE's are just supposed to be able to provide wild skins in levels not normally available, with specials that a creature wouldnt have in the wild or with specialised stats.
Without a direct comment we just dont know, but if the 15% thing holds true then you cant deny that what we are capable of far exceeds that margin.
I will deal with this more in the morning, its midnight here, but please before you all go jump on the CH forum and rant and rave and create more hostility between our professions, please try to see things from their perspective.
SmuttMeister
Sat Jul 17, 2004 6:56 pm
#5
Great comment / reply Nancy... gotta agree with you for the full 115%...
Zadokk
Sat Jul 17, 2004 8:03 pm
#6
well if we look at Bio-Engineering in real life, we can see the impact that it has on our lives. we can create entire species of plants immune to certain diseases by tinkering with the genetic structure and mixing and matching it with DNA from other wildlife. i think, to some extent, this should hold up in the game as well. i dont think there should be a margin because as we have seen, we are pushing this further and further beyond what we thought was the boundaries more and more every day. i think to limit BE's capabilities would only damage the game and remove theexcitement in creating pets. i can't believe BEs were put in the game just to make chefs happy and put new skin's on CH's latest pet.
perhaps there could be a balance to this so, for instance, BE pets could have decay? obviously this wouldnt be 24 hours or anything like that but perhaps 2-4 weeks depending on the quality of DNA/resources used? or perhaps if wild creatures did damage other than kinetic, it would be certainly more interesting to get the right amount vulnerabilities etc.
ArthurDentOnBria
Sat Jul 17, 2004 10:33 pm
#7
I think the best we can do is understand where the lines are drawn.
On the one hand, a "fun" part of CH is finding and taming pets. And it's understandable that they would like those efforts to be rewarded with the possibility of aquiring very very powerful pets, thus justifying the effort, and the skills that they have fostered.
But from the BE prespectiveif there is even a possibility of finding a pet that is more powerful than we can make, we instantly get reduced to "pet makers for the lazy" and producers of pet pharma for CH's without med skillslike we were before the pet revamp, and we are then the only crafting profession in the game whose customers are capable of "crafting" their own products without our help.
So those are where the lines are drawn. It's pretty difficult to even comromise too much, somebody is going to get the short end of the stick it seems to me. I think what's important though is that we at least represent our side of this intelligently and make sure we're heard when decisions about this are made.
Kuu
Sun Jul 18, 2004 5:33 am
#8
The solution, which will never happen, is anything but simple. Basically, we need to drop the whole DBNA sampling thing, and work on creature babies directly. Kind of like Image Designers, only on pet stats. but again, that would be an intense, involved code change, so won't happen.
Kuu
Kuu
Seiryuu
Sun Jul 18, 2004 8:22 am
#9
i can't believe BEs were put in the game just to make chefs happy and put new skin's on CH's latest pet.
The BE was a profession added very late in the beta when the devs realized the Farmer profession wasn't that great. Not a whole lot of thought was devoted to it beyond "this sounds like a cool idea".
Some CH are never going to accept BE pets. The profession revolves around taming and training. These people are in it for the thrill (very similar to us sampling DNA) and the joy of seeing their precious baby grow up. Taming a deed brings none of that.
(I can tell you this because I am one of those Creature Handlers. The only reason I use BE pets now is because I put more work into make a clone that I did taming.)
If you want to get that type of handler on your side, then push for Gene Splicing or Gene Therepy. Stuff to turn wild tames into BE pets. It could even use a similar system, so we lose nothing, gain a new market and give all handlers a reason to use our services. Until then, those handlers will always view us as nothing more than a stim factory.
The BE was a profession added very late in the beta when the devs realized the Farmer profession wasn't that great. Not a whole lot of thought was devoted to it beyond "this sounds like a cool idea".
Some CH are never going to accept BE pets. The profession revolves around taming and training. These people are in it for the thrill (very similar to us sampling DNA) and the joy of seeing their precious baby grow up. Taming a deed brings none of that.
(I can tell you this because I am one of those Creature Handlers. The only reason I use BE pets now is because I put more work into make a clone that I did taming.)
If you want to get that type of handler on your side, then push for Gene Splicing or Gene Therepy. Stuff to turn wild tames into BE pets. It could even use a similar system, so we lose nothing, gain a new market and give all handlers a reason to use our services. Until then, those handlers will always view us as nothing more than a stim factory.
ScoutMastr
Sun Jul 18, 2004 8:23 am
#10
NancyJ wrote:
Please try to see this situation from Vertex's pov.
Bugs in the pet crafting system allow us to create creatures that are far above the intended power for their level.
At the sub-10 level this greatly devalues the CH skill set and you have to understand this is the reason for their hostility.
In essence we have no one to blame but ourselves, we know our products are overpowered, we know in many cases that they're just plain bugged but we still strive to push the system as far as we can, that is the nature of bioengineers, we constantly try to be as good as we can but in doing so we are hurting CHs and therefore hurting ourselves in the long run.
Now, please dont take this to mean that I think BE pets should eb the same as wild pets at the same CL, but we dont really know the devs intention with the system, we've all seen the 15% better than their wild counterparts stat floating around but has anyone actually seen where that comes from? I certainly havent.
It could be that BE's are just supposed to be able to provide wild skins in levels not normally available, with specials that a creature wouldnt have in the wild or with specialised stats.
Without a direct comment we just dont know, but if the 15% thing holds true then you cant deny that what we are capable of far exceeds that margin.
I will deal with this more in the morning, its midnight here, but please before you all go jump on the CH forum and rant and rave and create more hostility between our professions, please try to see things from their perspective.
Well, after calming down a bit, I responded to his post. Give it a read and tell me if I'm being unreasonable. This upset me because I'm a CH first--and to have the CH correspondent join in on the "BE nerf" wagon...well, it doesn't sit right with me. Don't get me wrong, I think Vert is a good correspondent, but I do strongly disagree with his position on this one. I think this idea would impact the BE community much more than the CH.
ArthurDentOnBria
Sun Jul 18, 2004 9:27 am
#11
Seiryuu wrote:
If you want to get that type of handler on your side, then push for Gene Splicing or Gene Therepy. Stuff to turn wild tames into BE pets.
Sorry, I just don't see this as much of a compromise. Personally, I don't think there is any reconciling with this type of CH. They want us to not exist basically and their satisfaction with their class will be determined by their ability to "craft" their own pets.
From a "credits" perspective, yes, this makes sense for us, in the same way that from a "combat effectiveness" standpoint that it makes sense for them to buy their pets from us now, but we're talking now about how desirable and "fun" it is to play the respective professions, and to me they are mutually exclusive (or at least nobody has figured out a good compromise yet). I just can't see any but the most "credit hungry" BE's accepting a role as "Image Designer for pets" for the same reason that "old school" CH's have this objection with buying our pets now. Namely, that it's not as much fun to do so.
Message Edited by ArthurDentOnBria on 07-18-2004 09:30 AM
Seiryuu
Sun Jul 18, 2004 3:03 pm
#12
I'm not sure how creating an item that requires us to go through all the same steps as creating a clone, except it is applied to an existing creature, takes away the fun. One creates a template, the other a booster shot.
The only difference is the final assembly. I seriously doubt your fun comes from pressing that final button.
The only difference is the final assembly. I seriously doubt your fun comes from pressing that final button.
Ralfire
Sun Jul 18, 2004 3:52 pm
#13
This is not new...we need to wait for the combat revamp to see what happens to all proffesions. Until then I will hold my opinion to myself.
Page 1 of 2