Bio Engineer Archive

Thread: POLL: Ethical or not?

Templar1865
Sat May 15, 2004 9:56 pm
#14

yes--carpe diem et caveat emptor
NancyJ
Sat May 15, 2004 11:18 pm
#15

At the end of the day its your reputation you're harming.




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NancyJ
Sun May 16, 2004 12:13 am
#16

NO. Simple as that.

We know that these pets are grossly overpowered and MUCH higher than can be found in nature AND more powerful than the devs intend non-ch pets to be.

These we know to be fact.

A lot of people would argue that to sell them at all is unethical since we know them to be unintended creations.

If you make and sell these without informing your customer of the risks then its up to you however, its your business and your reputation - obviously the more you charge, if you're charging a huge amount of money it becomes more than just your reputation. Personally I've never sold a CL 10 for more than 30k so its not that much of an issue but I've also never sold any of the 10k HAM 60% kinetic combos either - the few I've made have been for friends as gifts with a complete understanding that they are temporary




Nyria's BioShop
-51 -5732 Tatooine
200m South of Anchorhead


Nyria - Farstar



NancyJ
Sun May 16, 2004 1:40 am
#17

The question was is it ethical or not to sell these pets which we know are unintended creations and will be fixed at some point in the future, without a disclaimer.
Regardless of ethics if you make a habit of selling these pets for your own personal financial gain without informing the buyer then you risk harming your reputation when a) the pets get fixed or b) someone sees your customer with the pet and tells them that its overpowered and tells them its going to get fixed.




Nyria's BioShop
-51 -5732 Tatooine
200m South of Anchorhead


Nyria - Farstar



Templar1865
Sun May 16, 2004 11:52 am
#18

Nanc, I think you're underestimating the intelligence and metagame awareness of the SWG community. Everyone in the non-BE community I've spoken with is well aware that these creatures are probably going to be nerfed at some point (of course, this might not ever be the case since they've already adjusted the overpowered creatures twice; or it may come in the far future).


From an ethics standpoint, the underlying question to the disclaimer issue is this: Are you being honest or not? If you /tell someone that all of their creatures will never change and last forever, then you're being dishonest with ALL of the creatures you sell. There is no way to know if your CL70 jax is going to be a valid pet six months from now. It's less likely to change than the powerful sub-10 creatures, but it's still very possible. I would even say likely, given the fluid nature of the game.


If a WS makes me a really nice pistol, then that pistol is moved up the pistoleer tree to the point I can no longer use it, was it the WS's responsibility to warm me that a nerf might happen?


Maybe we're moving towards boilerplate e-mails for our clients detailing all of the possible ways that our products might change in the future, in order to project a sense of ethics.


Either way, I don't think the consumers at large are all that concerned. Run a little test. Go make a CL10 critter with 8k health, 60 KR, and hawk it at your nearest in-game gathering place. Once you and your client agree on a price, ask them if future nerfs are a big concern for them. Report reactions back here or on a new thread. Most people who play the game are primarily concerned with playing the game now, the state of the game now; what's happening in the months to come is secondary.
Joilhath
Sun May 16, 2004 12:02 pm
#19

I don't see how you're harming your reputation by selling a pet that gets fixed who knows when especially if you have the disclaimer. Only thing I could see harming your reputaion is if it went invalid before it got fully grown and you didn't refund for that.



Joilhath Master Creature Handler/Master Bio Engineer
Joilhoth Master Artisan/Master Tailor/Master Chef
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Owner and Operator of Pets Needs (-6141, -915) Corellia in Pax Gallatica Mall
Templar1865
Sun May 16, 2004 4:01 pm
#20

Sure there's a comparison, Cliff. The heart of this issue is whether or not a person should use a unique aspect of the game to her or his advantage, especially if there is knowledge that the advantage will go away or change in the future. Stackers are a recent example. All non-CH combat professions are a current example (because they DO involve a 3rd party--check out the current prices for meat and loot drops that go into lightsabers). Many of our fellow BEs who got a vendor and then dropped artisan are an example (of course, we BEs will argue that having a vendor without any artisan skills is justifiable because BE is such an expensive profession skill-wise and--aside from docs--we're the only crafting profession that doesn't get a prereq profession that offers vendors. But it's the same thing as the power pets).


And the SWG community isn't just limited to these boards. Stratics, Center, Alahkazam (sp), gamespy, the list goes on. Like I said--put this to the test--find out in-game. The majority of consumers already know the risks and are still willing to spend the credits for them. Any of us who have been around since June can recognize a newbie a mile away--if they're asking newbie questions about your pets, take the time for some hand-holding. But if they're offering you a couple hundred thou for a pet, they had to earn that money somewhere.


Don't get me wrong--I applaud fair play. Fraud is bad. It feels like some members in the BE community are trying to manufacture a sort of ethically superior high ground, though. Be honest, make the best products on your server,be friendly, and have fun.
Luxorblack
Sun May 16, 2004 4:48 pm
#21

I'm pretty sick of this issue. This was a flame war and a half last year when we got our update and at this point I'm too tired of this same damned discussion over and over. I stopped cloning pets forvendor salebecause the system is screwed up beyond all recognition. I can't sell CH pets because demand is non-existent on my server, and I'm called an exploiter for making non-ch pets even remotely close to combat droids in stats. The blatant hypocrisy and lack of action on the side of the devs have only made the situation worse. We as a profession aren't allowed to fully enjoy or explore our own crafting system because the development team decides at random when and where a fix is needed. In the last case, outright lying to our correspondant about it.


I've had enough problems competing with DE's to sell non-ch tanks, let alone having people call me unethical for even selling the things. We're back to six months ago, this is bull**edit** and it needs to stop. Fix it once and for all or tell us the bloody validity ranges.





_________________________________________________________

Luxor Black, Parsec Enterprises [Adventureous Curator]
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Templar1865
Sun May 16, 2004 7:53 pm
#22

/beatDeadhorse off
Cliffy
Sun May 16, 2004 9:46 pm
#23

/reviveshorse

lol



Cliffy

Chilastra

From what starport can I get to Ironforge?
Cliffy
Mon May 17, 2004 12:36 am
#24

You're assuming everyone uses the forums which isnt the case...if you have a vendor that says nothing then face it...it's unethical...if you sell these on special order thats another story...dont compare stacking to this because it doesnt involve a 3rd party purchasing a good & has no comparison...like I said above I dont care what other ppl do because I've noticed most of the ppl doing this are ppl passing thru the profession & will be gone when the nerf bat swings & I mainly make CH pets anyway...these are most of the same type of ppl that picked up CH to sell mounts in front of starports when they came out & will eventually move along to a new money maker in the future



Cliffy

Chilastra

From what starport can I get to Ironforge?
Akelan
Mon May 17, 2004 9:09 am
#25

I started out refusing to make these obviously over-the-limit pets. I also started asking that the pet check be applied to the pets at creation, when the stats are defined. I continued to refuse to make the "monster pets" and attempt to make well balanced CL 10's with what was considered acceptable levels of health/action/mind, resists and damage.


What happened was the "acceptable" level pets were nerfed by the pet check about 80% of the time. I stopped making and selling them; as I was spending more of my time replacing invalid pets, often 4 , 5 or 6 times and having them nerfed a day later. I continued to post that the pet check was a problem. I submitted bug reports frequently. I spoke with a CSR who said the pet checks are working as intended.


I made a monster pet, tamed it and gave it to a friend. It is still valid and useful. I made more, and gave those away as well, and they all continue to be effective and usable pets. I sold some, with emails to the customer saying I would replace them if they became Invalid within a month's time. Nobody seems to have much of a good guess as to where the state of the game will be much farther out than that anyway, except that many long-standing bugs will still be unresolved.


I may learn slowly, but I learn. SOE seems to have established a system in which the high health, high kinetic non-CH tank is acceptable, and the BE's equivalent to the Cowardly Gurreck for stats is not. I have friends and customers who want and need non-CH level creatures to protect , tank and handle crowd control issues for them. I have holo-chasing friends that have had to drop most of the self-preservation skills they have to pursue Jedi, who are desperate for the pets.


I don't like the end result of all of this. I think the 9-10K health, 60% Kinetic, 150 damage non-CH pet is a travesty. I can wish and complain all I want, but the simple fact is that the only viable non-CH pet seems to be these outlandish freaks, and there seems to be little alternative.


I do not at all fault the other BE's that have worked to create these types of creatures. I may see ome of them setting their prices as outrageous sometimes, and perhaps predatory, and some misrepresent the creatures badly, but that will be the case no matter what the stats of the "top pet" is, sadly. There are both the "I want all the money I can get for everything" types and the ones to whom making the best they can is the challenge and the reward, and their riches are measured in something more than the size of their bank accounts, who I admire.


Is it ethical to sell these pets without a disclaimer? I think there is a somewhat more important ethic than the knowledge that the pet will no doubt eventually be rendered unusable, and it is very much usable when it is sold, which is all the control we really have.


I think SOE needs to put a disclaimer on the entire BE profession, stating that it is a work in progress, and perhaps not the highest priority is placed on making it anything other than unfinished as it is. I feel distinctly let down by the unrealized potential in the profession, given the state of the pet check issue in particular, and I think the ethics of selling a pet that works, though we do not have any certainty as to how long it will do so, pale to insignificance in the light of the unkept promise of the BE profession.


Perhaps SOE should place the disclaimer on these pets.


WARNING - This creature was clearly never intended to work but we do not have adequate control, interest, or the will to dedicate the resources to establishing a stable, working creature level system for the Bio Engineering profession. Use this game at your own risk, no guarantee of reasonable performance or stability is expressed or implied.


LLan





Myonax
Mon May 17, 2004 10:35 am
#26

SOE has had 2 or3major publishes since Tal got that info and still they haven't made any changes. My philosophy on CL10 pets is that I will only make Generation 1 CL10 Critters. I never make a non-ch with 2nd gen or higher DNA. I use 2nd and third DNA on Twins and trips though. I have yet to have a customer comeback with an uncallable pet. My philosophy is if I am not doing anything special and my non-ch come out with 7k/5k/4k HAMs on the first generation then they are probably as intended.
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