Bio Engineer Archive
Thread: The uber CL10
ArthurDentOnBria
Thu Mar 10, 2005 1:37 am
#14
Here is my main objections to them:
1. The fact that there is a bug in the CL calculation creates a situation where the *only* way to create a competitive pet is to exploit the bug. Just try to create a competitive pet in the CL 1-25 range without using dna from a merek. I dare ya. I double dare ya. It dumbs down the process.
2. It simply does not scale, causingall sorts of imbalances
CL 10 pet: 10k HAM, 60% kinetic 0% energy AR0, 100 damage: market value: 500k, skill points spent: 0
CL 12 pet:10k HAM, 60% kinetic 0% energy AR0 150 damage: market value: 60k, skill points spent: 49
CL 14 pet:10k HAM, 60% kinetic 0% energyAR0 200 damage: market value: 60k, skill points spent: 54
...
CL 24 pet: 10k HAM, 60% kinetic 0% energy AR1200 damage:market value: 70k, skill points spent: 63
...
see the problem? Not only is dabbling in CH foolish under such conditions, but making any pets other than the CL 10 pets is equally foolish from the BE standpoint. Because in all those pets I list above, the dna in all of them is more or less identical. Why put your 5 dna samples into a pet that is going to turn out CL 14 when you can put it into a CL 10 and charge 10x more for it? Similarly what rational person decides that they want to spend 49 skill points just to get a pet that does 50 points higher damage, and then not being able to find a BE willing to make such a pet for under a million credits because that is what they get for a CL 10 using the same dna?
Felisconcolori
Thu Mar 10, 2005 9:52 am
#15
::looks over the dead horse, finds a small spot on one of the hooves that hasn't gotten hit yet::
Are these creatures overbalanced? To my CH side... couldn't care less. To my BE side... I only sell them for 80k; not exactly game breaking.
It is obvious from comparisons between droids and pets (which both use "Challenge Level"), and BE pets and non-BE pets, that the stats gained through the formulae for DNA recombination are considered, by the Devs, to be far too high.
WHY are these stats too high? I have some myself, and I find they are not as useful as you think. They give me time to run away from whatever just got upset at me for poking it with a needle, and I need to run from 99% of the creatures in the game. The only specials I have ever seen stick with these pets are indimidate or crippling strike, neither of which are very effective. The damage from one of these creatures is so low, any weapon that a CH or nonCH uses will top them quickly. Sure, they can tank, but they can't tank any of the creatures or NPCs more effectively than your TKM friend.
As far as "weapons" go, these creatures just aren't effective. As tanks, they do alright against some creatures, but they aren't making me survivable in combat against a herd of Rancors, or even one nightsister slave. When it comes to things like the giant of endor (can't remember the name of this 350k HAM behemoth), these creatures are absolutely useless.
Looking at play styles and trends in the game, I see people using these pets solely as an increase to their ability to grind force-related XP. In general, how many people do you see running around with combat droids? With pets? I don't think it's that much of an issue largely because people don't use pets or droids because, against the novatroopers and nightsisters and sith, they are next to useless. You, as a buffed, armoured bad***, will destroy things and can tank better than your pets ever will.
This I think is the real problem... not the "uber" cl10s, but the general nerf of creature handler and pets/droids. But I think all of this will change in the CURB, as (afaik) creature handler is considered a "combat" profession; the revamp of the entire HAM system indicates the possibility of a revamp of the entire BE pet process, and all pets... which makes me want to scream "Please, Team I Have a Better Idea God!!! PLEASE make the Devs make sure everything works after they break it!"
ahem. Anyways... Yes, they are giving you the ability to use a pet without investing SP. But it does not make you able to use that pet effectively. CHs still need to train these pets. And they require an insane amount of Pet-Stims in the long run. There are some controls in place that mean these pets will never be a replacement for CHs; but given that most "groups" are now long-established groups of friends and that soloing is something that will never go away, I don't see how these pets really impact CHs.... A Creature Handler will still pwn these things in a creature duel. CHs are still needed to train them; CHs will always have access to skins and creatures we cannot make, and the associated specials. I have not seen any decrease in CHs, and to my limited experience, CHs don't make a lot of money selling pets and never have, except for the Cowardly Gurreck craze. (I still have one. I love my Cowardly Gurreck.)
The system does not contain a bug, or an exploit. It does have some interesting calculations, and the Devs I don't think ever expected BioEngineers to start acting like, well, real cloners. Experiments, generational cloning as far down as 10 generations, what amounts to research papers in the forums... C'mon, we could put together and host a freakin' symposium. The Devs just never thought we would learn how to use the system so well.
RashDraco
Thu Mar 10, 2005 11:08 am
#16
rahbert wrote:
...but the fact is that they can be made without breaking game mechanics... the fact is that there is no exploit... is there a bug? No one knows.
OK is this a bug...yes the Devs have clearly stated this...next what is an exploit..and exploit by definaition is "Exploiting a known game bug to gain an unfair advantage"
OK BY definaition this IS an exploit. The problem lies in is it ENFORCABLE to punish those that do it. NO .
What happened was way back when they first changed BE, we had the issues with the L0 pets. yes they were an issue and here we area year later with a few still lurling out there. At the same time is when the 10K HAM pets came into being. The devs to combat the 10K pets did an inefficent quick fix. This quick fix again was bypassed via the base human nature to attempt to find an advantage , YES I am saying its a primal animal instint to attempt to gain an advantage over others, its human nature that sets us apart from the animals, but for some reason this basic instinct, along with chest beating and publicly humiliating others , seems to shine through in the gaming world.
Any way this trick to creating such pets was rapidly widespread and became sucha common practice that BE's who don't do it are called idiots, or basically sucky BE's , Hmm we suck because we refuse to lower our standards , oh well. Anyway the issue is soo rampant today that for the devs to punish BE's for exploiting would result in suspension of probally 75% of all BE's.
The best fix, would be to go back and rewrite the checker, publish what the INTENDED results of be pets are, (documentaion has been a serious issue) make BE pets comparable to Droids, either reduce droids or make non ch pets 4K ham. and fix CH.
Another possibility is REMOVE NON - ch pets completely, or even the rumors of killing off CH as a class completely.
If the last change was made there are possibilities of repairing BE.
Remove spice form smuggler (drugs as they are should be removed from the game...comeon we all know what spice is, lets remove that avenue) give smugglers a melee combat line to replace.
Remove DNA sampling and pets from BE, replace with the new trees Human Augmentation (ie the old spice, but combat bomuses like those new stims floationg around). Split Food and clothing augmentation up and add more clothing tissues. also add a BE enhance medical tissue. BE's would be happy in my opinon as a support crafting class, just give us something worth making.
rahbert
Thu Mar 10, 2005 11:11 am
#17
"OK is this a bug...yes the Devs have clearly stated this...next what is an exploit..and exploit by definaition is "Exploiting a known game bug to gain an unfair advantage"
OK BY definaition this IS an exploit. The problem lies in is it ENFORCABLE to punish those that do it. NO ."
What's the bug then? Link please. I've yet to see one single post that has stated what the bug was.
OK BY definaition this IS an exploit. The problem lies in is it ENFORCABLE to punish those that do it. NO ."
What's the bug then? Link please. I've yet to see one single post that has stated what the bug was.
supersparc
Thu Mar 10, 2005 11:27 am
#18
I just love how people can say using the system to create a level 10 is an exploit. However, using the same system to create tiplets or duos is not. Its the same system. You use the same algorithm to lower the CL whether you lower it to 35, 23, or 10.
Do you not create vulnerabilities to take level 35 DNA to level 23? Is not MH DNA still essential to alot of higher level recipes?
If its an exploit and using it is an exploit, then ALL BEs that make pets should be banned. Disagree? then please tell me the exact CL where it becomes an exploit? only non-CH pets? Is level 11 considered not exploiting the system.
Do you not create vulnerabilities to take level 35 DNA to level 23? Is not MH DNA still essential to alot of higher level recipes?
If its an exploit and using it is an exploit, then ALL BEs that make pets should be banned. Disagree? then please tell me the exact CL where it becomes an exploit? only non-CH pets? Is level 11 considered not exploiting the system.
Felisconcolori
Thu Mar 10, 2005 11:35 am
#19
RashDraco wrote:
rahbert wrote:
...but the fact is that they can be made without breaking game mechanics... the fact is that there is no exploit... is there a bug? No one knows.
OK is this a bug...yes the Devs have clearly stated this...next what is an exploit..and exploit by definaition is "Exploiting a known game bug to gain an unfair advantage"
Negative. The devs, in a specific response to this issue, said "the system works as intended". If the code works the way the developer intends, that is not a bug. (Look for the "Dev Communication" thread; the response is there as reported by former correspondent NancyJ.) If using a subsystem that works as it was intended to do so to create pets not foreseen by inadequate testing is considered an exploit, then... Doctor Buffs are an exploit, as the subsystem they use has had an unbalancing effect unforeseen by the developers. The system is not broken; the underlying mathematical concepts just do not return things the way the Devs think they should. (IE, these pets are an unexpected mutation in the evolution of pet creation as a system.)
The best fix, would be to go back and rewrite the checker, publish what the INTENDED results of be pets are, (documentaion has been a serious issue) make BE pets comparable to Droids, either reduce droids or make non ch pets 4K ham. and fix CH.
Another possibility is REMOVE NON - ch pets completely, or even the rumors of killing off CH as a class completely.
I would strongly disagree. I think the checker is useless; all pets made now in the system cannot be made to fall outside of what the system is capable of. While these pets are not an intended result of the algorithm, the "pet validity check" is a joke. If anything, the system needs to be tweaked in such a way that the intended functionality of pets is preserved throughout the entire line of pet crafting. (Yes, that is a lot of work and I don't see it realistically being done, but that is the best way, IMHO.)
If the last change was made there are possibilities of repairing BE.
Remove spice form smuggler (drugs as they are should be removed from the game...comeon we all know what spice is, lets remove that avenue) give smugglers a melee combat line to replace.
Remove DNA sampling and pets from BE, replace with the new trees Human Augmentation (ie the old spice, but combat bomuses like those new stims floationg around). Split Food and clothing augmentation up and add more clothing tissues. also add a BE enhance medical tissue. BE's would be happy in my opinon as a support crafting class, just give us something worth making.
I strongly disagree with this as well. Pet crafting is the most challenging aspect of the entire game. It requires thought, experimentation, and lots of time to gain an understanding as to how pets come together and what kinds of DNA is needed to recombine specific templates. If the changes you say are put into effect, SOE will only succeed in supremely upsetting all CHs, Smugglers, and BEs. CHs, because they spend how long only to be destroyed? Smugglers, because they are very, VERY protective of their spices. They also don't want a melee line. Read through the IC:Smuggler Revamp thread.This will upset the majority of hard core BEs because Tissue creation is only a path to low profit, and has nothing like the intellectual challenge pet creation does. In effect, you are suggesting all BEs become Chef/Tailor alts. I would be happy being just a crafting class, but as we continually see in the release notes, crafting patches don't apply to Bioengineers.
Anarrion
Thu Mar 10, 2005 12:02 pm
#20
"medium armor and 60% kinetic at CL 60" ???
Medium armor and 0% kinetic, under the current system, requires 1000 Fortitude, apparently. Medium armor and 60% kinetic would therefore require much more than 1000 fortitude. Light armor and 60% kinetic resist is better than medium armor and 0% kinetic (against kinetic damage), so even if the sampling cap was removed, light armor and 60% kinetic is about as good as you would get, assuming fortitude is unlikely to go much higher than 1000.
Anyway, the Combat Upgrade will get rid of AP/AR system and may actually address the CL 10 pets in the process, since a new way of calculating CL will be required. The big drop in CL we see going from 500+ fortitude to < 500 fortitude will be gone. The different affects on CL due to Special Protectionand Effectiveness should also be addressed. Addressing the CL 10 problem or addressing some of the problems with the CH profession will not necessarily have to wait until after the CU.
Zadokk
Thu Mar 10, 2005 12:23 pm
#21
/yawn
new faces, old arguments. fact is, things will change in the CURB. I'm tired of this debate - it's all based on a battle of semantics and with people trying to claim moral superiority. It's totally bogus.
new faces, old arguments. fact is, things will change in the CURB. I'm tired of this debate - it's all based on a battle of semantics and with people trying to claim moral superiority. It's totally bogus.
Spazzers
Thu Mar 10, 2005 12:30 pm
#22
OK is this a bug...yes the Devs have clearly stated this...next what is an exploit..and exploit by definaition is "Exploiting a known game bug to gain an unfair advantage"
That horsey has been beat for so long it looks like an eopie now. Post links. You'll be better received. I seriously am interested in every remark from a developer that addresses CL10 animal creation.
What happened was way back when they first changed BE, we had the issues with the L0 pets. yes they were an issue and here we area year later with a few still lurling out there. At the same time is when the 10K HAM pets came into being. The devs to combat the 10K pets did an inefficent quick fix.
Your history is a bit askew but it is fundamentally correct. The pet checks were to eliminate level 1/0 pre patched animals. It didn't eliminate them at all. What it did do was declare many post patch animals invalid. There were 3 tries at the pet check. All three failed. Many CL10 animals that compared with their wild counterparts were declaired invalid. I had a good recipe that used scyk and cu pa to create CL10 animals. Those animals are more often than not invalid now. Every single "uber" 10 passes the pet check. Some BE's took that to mean the uber 10's were and are as intended.
Ethics, higher standards, and morality areindividual choices and not something I, or anyone else, has the right to impose. If you follow the rules and game mechanics as designed are you breaking an ethic code by crafting an animal that the developers did not forsee or are you just damn good at what you do?
/steps over the eopie and moves on....
Halthron
Thu Mar 10, 2005 1:09 pm
#23
Since the CH isn't very powerful, I'd prefer to see them increased instead of us nerfed as is often enspoused. I too disaagree that this is a bug or an exploit. It's an unintended effect of a formula that wasn't fully tested. Just as the devs didn't expect doc buffs to be as strong as they are or food to be as strong, they didn't expect pets like these.
There doesn't even need to be wholesale modifications since, and this is an odd event, I agree with Joker on the stats that would be appropriate although they may be a bit high.The build on TC a couple months ago showed what can be created in MCH range using the current system. Give a couple of critters medium armor and bump up the health on a few more and we'll have better recipes at that level without making a ton of changes. 11k/8k/5k with 60% kinetic at CL 10, 12k/9/6k with light armor & 60% kinetic at 20 and 18k/13k/10k with medium armor and 60% kinetic at CL 60. I'd also like to see hitting a certain level of aggression to give light armor piercing but that's a different discussion.
IMO, this is where the BE members of the CU need to be VERY involved with the beta on the Wookie world. It may be that there will be a few critters at or under CL 75 with medium armor and fortitude over 800.
The other option to taking care of this so-called problem will result in a lot of other issues with CL changes and if it were made retroactive, it would cause every CH pet to change CL as well.
Zanthoram
Thu Mar 10, 2005 2:02 pm
#24
Creating a level 10 with this system is not an exploit, but it is a menace to the CH profession. The reason people do not say that creating triplets or duos is not an exploit is that creating pets above CL 10 is not destroying the CH profession. Creating pets on CL 10 with 11k/9k/6k 60% kin. resists eliminates the need for any Creature Handling skills.
Joker9125
Thu Mar 10, 2005 5:13 pm
#25
Zanthoram wrote:
Creating a level 10 with this system is not an exploit, but it is a menace to the CH profession. The reason people do not say that creating triplets or duos is not an exploit is that creating pets above CL 10 is not destroying the CH profession. Creating pets on CL 10 with 11k/9k/6k 60% kin. resists eliminates the need for any Creature Handling skills.
/agree
I would honestly rather the devs upped the stregnth of CH creatures rather than nerf these though.
Grozurr
Thu Mar 10, 2005 5:39 pm
#26
/hijack thread
ok for the sake of the sanity of those of us who have been here more than a few months and already heard this argument XXX(insert 3-digit number here) times, i'm moving on...to the cool things i've found that Ch's ask for that you can deliver.
Take for example a couple of pets i've made/gotten orders for and am making for a couple of Ch's. One that i had a BLAST working on was an NS tank pet. The CH wanted me to get resists on kietic, stun, and blast as high as possible (for those who don't know these are the 3 damage types that NS, and particularly the elders use). I managed to get him a pet w/ 50kin, AR1, 10K HAM, and invuln Blast and stun. He's thrilled with it. Very cool, and once it's all grown up i'm making him take me NS hunting. Another one I made was supposed to be a CL 70 pet, but ended up being a CL 63 pet, with AR1, 500+ dmg, and pretty good all around resists. oh, and it had strong disease and some other special (origional order called for dizzy also). Lots of fun making that one
Next one i got aroudn to making was for the same order, problem was it ended up being CL 76 
Lots of cool things can be done without bothering with the CL 10 issue.
Grozzer Agoutt
Kauri
MBE/Sentinel
ok for the sake of the sanity of those of us who have been here more than a few months and already heard this argument XXX(insert 3-digit number here) times, i'm moving on...to the cool things i've found that Ch's ask for that you can deliver.
Take for example a couple of pets i've made/gotten orders for and am making for a couple of Ch's. One that i had a BLAST working on was an NS tank pet. The CH wanted me to get resists on kietic, stun, and blast as high as possible (for those who don't know these are the 3 damage types that NS, and particularly the elders use). I managed to get him a pet w/ 50kin, AR1, 10K HAM, and invuln Blast and stun. He's thrilled with it. Very cool, and once it's all grown up i'm making him take me NS hunting. Another one I made was supposed to be a CL 70 pet, but ended up being a CL 63 pet, with AR1, 500+ dmg, and pretty good all around resists. oh, and it had strong disease and some other special (origional order called for dizzy also). Lots of fun making that one
Next one i got aroudn to making was for the same order, problem was it ended up being CL 76 Lots of cool things can be done without bothering with the CL 10 issue.
Grozzer Agoutt
Kauri
MBE/Sentinel