Bio Engineer Archive
Thread: CL based damage mitigation suggestions
REALbp1 wrote:
lammergeier wrote:
REALbp1 wrote:
I hate to play Devil's advocate, but if you wanted Maskscent with your BE, you had the choice to become a Ranger or Ch, but decided not to and went with Artisan/MerchantThe game provided you with the points to get the skills needed to sample well and you chose to prioritize other facets of play. Your choice.As a MCH/MBE I have no probelm, what so ever, sampling DNA, but I planned it that way...
maskscent and aggro is ALSO related to CL.
as mCH/mBioE, you're still sitting at CL60 or so... while a mCH/combat will easily hit CL80... and a noncombat BioE will languish at CL17.
since a BioE's DNA targets run to CL75, and since BioE's are required for GCW base takedowns, a base CL of 17, and a max in the low 60's, just don't cut it.
Agree. That is why, when deciding what skills compliment one another, and your play style, you look at the template as a whole. Don't pick BE and Merchant, then complain casue you can't fight.It's like picking Master Dancer/ MBH and complaining that Jedi own you...
except that mBioE/mRanger doesn't work as well as CL80-anything. camo and maskscent efficacy are based on CL... and high CL toons don't need maskscent or camo, since their CL protects them from aggro WITHOUT maskscent or camo.
I'm not saying BioE's should be combat heavies. I just don't see why the CL system should serve as a gate to two BioE-specific activities: GCW base takedowns, and DNA sampling (one optional, one required).
lammergeier wrote:
SioBabble wrote:
QuantumArtist wrote:
lammergeier wrote:
the health pool is the least of my worries... CL also determines accuracy and defenses, and it adds a MULTIPLICATIVE damage modifier.
having 1k health isn't the problem... the problem is getting hit for 5k in one shot that won't miss.
That depends doesnt it? Are we talking level 80 to level 80 combat? Or are we talking level 54 to level 80 combat?
It only stands with logic that a level 54 would get owned by a level 80.
It did not used to be this way, though.
The level system's multiplicative effect makes it IMPOSSIBLE for a level 54 to operate on an even keel with a level 80. A level 54 rifleman cannot hope to defeat Tazz, a level 80 MCH/Pistoleer, even though he might have superior weapons, because of the multiplier effect.
Mobs used to hit for what they hit, not hit on the basis of what the level of the player was.
Those who say that 'levels were always there' quite frankly don't understand what they're talking about. The levels were based on inate combat capabilities. You could change the level of a mission by equipping different weapons, by grouping and ungrouping different pets. Most of my pets conned red to me, which was one of the things that was very cool about being a CH. Very dangerous critters that in the wild would eat you are at your command.
Nowadays it is utterly trivial for me to defeat a level 50 rancor. Back before the CU it was by no means a certainty, particularly if I went in "naked", that is, with no buffs or armor.
There were no damage multipliers. Furthermore, if you didn't pay attention, something at a lower level than you could defeat you. Now due to multipliers, it's impossible for anything that cons grey to you to defeat you, unless you take a nap at your keyboard and have no autoattack. I recall seeing the corpses of TKMs laying around a spawn point for meatlumps outside of Coronet or Tyrena where they'd been AFK farming. That can't happen now due to the multipliers. Furthermore, a non-combat oriented crafter at least had a CHANCE to get away from something aggro, now, they're one hit to the cloning center.
10 points for SioBabble.
Didnt used to be that way? Sorry, have to flat out dissagree. Who says it shouldnt be that way either? Thats a matter of personal opinion, and I like it better as it is. That again, is not to say adjustments arent needed. You have to consider the many factors.
REALbp1 wrote:
lammergeier wrote:
and high CL toons don't need maskscent or camo, since their CL protects them from aggro WITHOUT maskscent or camo.
That would seem to be an unfair advantage. But, if they changed it so that 'gray con' mobs still aggroed, all you would have is a lot of wasted time while moving around, fighting off irritating agro from mobs that aren't a challenge. I don't think anyone’s game would be improved by having gray cons agro.
grey cons still aggro... just less often, and possibly due to bugs (shadevale stalkers specifically).
camo and maskscent currently CAUSE an aggro when they fail... which will hopefully change.
I don't think the answer is to increase grey con aggro... I think the answer is to make maskscent and camo work on their own merits, rather than based on the CL of the toon (which is currently the case). a maskscent of +125 should provide a substantial 'sneakiness' no matter what the CL of the toon is.
the idea of maskscent/camo is to AVOID combat... right now, that isn't happening. they are defensive skills... and they currently don't offer a substantive defense (and, in fact, make life MORE dangerous).
lammergeier wrote:
I don't think the answer is to increase grey con aggro... I think the answer is to make maskscent and camo work on their own merits, rather than based on the CL of the toon (which is currently the case). a maskscent of +125 should provide a substantial 'sneakiness' no matter what the CL of the toon is.
I agree 100%.
QuantumArtist wrote:
lammergeier wrote:
SioBabble wrote:
QuantumArtist wrote:
lammergeier wrote:
the health pool is the least of my worries... CL also determines accuracy and defenses, and it adds a MULTIPLICATIVE damage modifier.
having 1k health isn't the problem... the problem is getting hit for 5k in one shot that won't miss.
That depends doesnt it? Are we talking level 80 to level 80 combat? Or are we talking level 54 to level 80 combat?It only stands with logic that a level 54 would get owned by a level 80.
It did not used to be this way, though.The level system's multiplicative effect makes it IMPOSSIBLE for a level 54 to operate on an even keel with a level 80. A level 54 rifleman cannot hope to defeat Tazz, a level 80 MCH/Pistoleer, even though he might have superior weapons, because of the multiplier effect.
Mobs used to hit for what they hit, not hit on the basis of what the level of the player was.
Those who say that 'levels were always there' quite frankly don't understand what they're talking about. The levels were based on inate combat capabilities. You could change the level of a mission by equipping different weapons, by grouping and ungrouping different pets. Most of my pets conned red to me, which was one of the things that was very cool about being a CH. Very dangerous critters that in the wild would eat you are at your command.
Nowadays it is utterly trivial for me to defeat a level 50 rancor. Back before the CU it was by no means a certainty, particularly if I went in "naked", that is, with no buffs or armor.
There were no damage multipliers. Furthermore, if you didn't pay attention, something at a lower level than you could defeat you. Now due to multipliers, it's impossible for anything that cons grey to you to defeat you, unless you take a nap at your keyboard and have no autoattack. I recall seeing the corpses of TKMs laying around a spawn point for meatlumps outside of Coronet or Tyrena where they'd been AFK farming. That can't happen now due to the multipliers. Furthermore, a non-combat oriented crafter at least had a CHANCE to get away from something aggro, now, they're one hit to the cloning center.
10 points for SioBabble.
Didnt used to be that way? Sorry, have to flat out dissagree. Who says it shouldnt be that way either? Thats a matter of personal opinion, and I like it better as it is. That again, is not to say adjustments arent needed. You have to consider the many factors.For example, in your comparison, you say to take away armor... When you take away buffs and combat armor you're comparing apples to oranges. WITH a buff and armor pre CU... entire lairs of rancors and worse were more then a certainty! For 3 hours you were immune to anything in the game except another buffed and comp armored player. Which I strongly believe was destroying SWG. It emmasculated the entire game.You're supposed to be weaker! You're not supposed to be a god! I like that there are many things that can still beat me. Certainly alot more then there are now.Also... are we factoring jedi, or non jedi? If you are saying a 54 non jedi can go toe to toe with a jedi expecting to win, then we certainly disagree.I think it mimics reality in many ways that SWG didnt pre CU. Some things will attack you on site. Others will be intimidated just looking at you and shy away. Others are easy kills and some are likely to kill you.Here, do the math... in combat 54<80= 80 winsIt was that way pre CU... Its that way now. You invest more skill points, you get more for it and you SHOULD.Now whether a 54 can contribute to a group... again I disagree. If you go headlong into battle expecting to face the enemy dead on... I got another surprise for you. But if you stay back and try to get a few shots in, you'll be a big help.SWG has grown beyond the simple world of "I'm the uber 1337ness" and has gone to a more challenging level. Sure it needs tweeks but I disagree with the inferrance that a 54 should be even with an 80.
it didn't used to be that way.
you didn't need buffs and armor to place a harvester.
the new 'buff' is the CL system. swapping a crafted buff for a passive CL buff doesn't remove the problem from the game... it simply moves it around.
you didn't need buffs and armor to take down enraged rancors (formerly CL84)... a TKM/brawler could, using no exploits and only basic equipment and tactics, take down lairs of them. a rifleman could pull single targets. doctors were on par with combat medics for healing (now, CM's beat docs by a large margin).
it didn't used to be that way. the CL system is currently a gate to content: either it's 'too hard', and no chance, strategy, tactic, or equipment will change the outcome... or it's 'too easy', and nothing more than a tedious time sink.
lammergeier wrote:
you didn't need buffs and armor to place a harvester.
the new 'buff' is the CL system. swapping a crafted buff for a passive CL buff doesn't remove the problem from the game... it simply moves it around.
you didn't need buffs and armor to take down enraged rancors (formerly CL84)... a TKM/brawler could, using no exploits and only basic equipment and tactics, take down lairs of them. a rifleman could pull single targets. doctors were on par with combat medics for healing (now, CM's beat docs by a large margin).
it didn't used to be that way. the CL system is currently a gate to content: either it's 'too hard', and no chance, strategy, tactic, or equipment will change the outcome... or it's 'too easy', and nothing more than a tedious time sink.
Absolutely.
Nearly every last thing on Endor (Endor! In beta Endor was CERTAIN DEATH if you were careless!)cons grey to Tazz now, as a level 80 toon. He can move around with utter impunity around wild lairs. Sure, there's the Gorax and the DWB. But the rest of Endor? Unless he takes a mission, it's not worth his time.
The starter worlds, with a few exceptions (heavy hitter factional NPCs, krayt dragons, peko albs, a few others) are of no challenge whatsoever to level 80 toons except from SOME player city mission terminals. Entire planets without content for high level players.
This is NOT how it was prior to the CU and the imposition of the level system, and the further decision to make anything grey non-aggro to you.
Then there is the cheat of the "elite" mob, in which they're harder to kill than a normal level 80, but give you the same XP as one.
If Tazz was not careful prior to the CU, even with MCH and pets out and a sprinkling of BH skills (to include LLC) he could get himself killed against midlevel mobs, unbuffed unarmored. The old system frankly was far more tactically rich than the current one if you choose to make it that way by forgoing buffs and armor.
lammergeier wrote:
the health pool is the least of my worries... CL also determines accuracy and defenses, and it adds a MULTIPLICATIVE damage modifier.
having 1k health isn't the problem... the problem is getting hit for 5k in one shot that won't miss.
That depends doesnt it? Are we talking level 80 to level 80 combat? Or are we talking level 54 to level 80 combat?
It only stands with logic that a level 54 would get owned by a level 80.
SioBabble wrote:
Nearly every last thing on Endor (Endor! In beta Endor was CERTAIN DEATH if you were careless!)cons grey to Tazz now, as a level 80 toon. He can move around with utter impunity around wild lairs. Sure, there's the Gorax and the DWB. But the rest of Endor? Unless he takes a mission, it's not worth his time.
QuantumArtist wrote:
SioBabble wrote:
Nearly every last thing on Endor (Endor! In beta Endor was CERTAIN DEATH if you were careless!)cons grey to Tazz now, as a level 80 toon. He can move around with utter impunity around wild lairs. Sure, there's the Gorax and the DWB. But the rest of Endor? Unless he takes a mission, it's not worth his time.
Again I dissagree. Don your comp armor. Buff up and go on a rampant killing spree through the wilderness. That was pre CU.
The DWB was the only real exception, and that was only because the mobs were given insane stats that defied anything a player could even hope to acheive... which kinda sucked the reality or believability of it right out the window.
Now, mobs have regeneration. They use specials. They have more reasonable health and similar armor. They're more like players and therin lies the new challenge. Again, its not perfect, but I believe its MUCH better.
Now if you REALLYwant to complain about anything post CU, we might want to discuss Jedi populations and all the issues surrounding the BE profession (weak stims, bio clothing, jacked up pet stats).
You're gloriously missing the point.
Prior to the grey con aggro nerf, nearly everything on Endor attacked me. Of course, none of it was worth fighting. XP for me killing level 70 critter as a level 80 player? 1 weapon XP. Which is why the devs made the destruction of the virtual reality complete by removing the aggravation of things you can't kill for XP ignore you.
On Endor, 99% of the mobs will not attack me unless I attack them or get right on top of them, or they move directly on top of me, and then the outcome is not in doubt unless they are social and have fellows around them, due to the level multipliers. They are NOT like players. They're weaker and less of a challenge than players well below my level. They're much weaker than they were to me as a master CH/master pistoleer prior to the CU.
The level system has rendered entire PLANETS beneath my attention from an XP perspective. This was not true prior to the CU. I could still get much greater XP off durnis and gnorts then than I can off mereks or blurrgs on Endor now.
SioBabble wrote:
QuantumArtist wrote:
SioBabble wrote:
Nearly every last thing on Endor (Endor! In beta Endor was CERTAIN DEATH if you were careless!)cons grey to Tazz now, as a level 80 toon. He can move around with utter impunity around wild lairs. Sure, there's the Gorax and the DWB. But the rest of Endor? Unless he takes a mission, it's not worth his time.
Again I dissagree. Don your comp armor. Buff up and go on a rampant killing spree through the wilderness. That was pre CU.
The DWB was the only real exception, and that was only because the mobs were given insane stats that defied anything a player could even hope to acheive... which kinda sucked the reality or believability of it right out the window.
Now, mobs have regeneration. They use specials. They have more reasonable health and similar armor. They're more like players and therin lies the new challenge. Again, its not perfect, but I believe its MUCH better.
Now if you REALLYwant to complain about anything post CU, we might want to discuss Jedi populations and all the issues surrounding the BE profession (weak stims, bio clothing, jacked up pet stats).
You're gloriously missing the point.
Prior to the grey con aggro nerf, nearly everything on Endor attacked me. Of course, none of it was worth fighting. XP for me killing level 70 critter as a level 80 player? 1 weapon XP. Which is why the devs made the destruction of the virtual reality complete by removing the aggravation of things you can't kill for XP ignore you.
On Endor, 99% of the mobs will not attack me unless I attack them or get right on top of them, or they move directly on top of me, and then the outcome is not in doubt unless they are social and have fellows around them, due to the level multipliers. They are NOT like players. They're weaker and less of a challenge than players well below my level. They're much weaker than they were to me as a master CH/master pistoleer prior to the CU.
The level system has rendered entire PLANETS beneath my attention from an XP perspective. This was not true prior to the CU. I could still get much greater XP off durnis and gnorts then than I can off mereks or blurrgs on Endor now.
But should you get XP off durnis? I mean what can a level 80 learn by peverbially clubbing a baby seal?
I think its better this way. If I want to kill Gnorts for an easy way to harvest nabooian herb meat... thats one thing. Its another to completly AFK grind all the way to master level by clubbing utterly weak mobs.
I agree that there could be a great deal more aggression. Particularly in areas like the warren. The warren has been reduced to little more then a maze/puzzle where level 80s can wander around unmolested. This has caused a huge influx of jedi/FS players and needs to be corrected ASAP.
QuantumArtist wrote:
SioBabble wrote:
QuantumArtist wrote:
SioBabble wrote:
Nearly every last thing on Endor (Endor! In beta Endor was CERTAIN DEATH if you were careless!)cons grey to Tazz now, as a level 80 toon. He can move around with utter impunity around wild lairs. Sure, there's the Gorax and the DWB. But the rest of Endor? Unless he takes a mission, it's not worth his time.
Again I dissagree. Don your comp armor. Buff up and go on a rampant killing spree through the wilderness. That was pre CU.
The DWB was the only real exception, and that was only because the mobs were given insane stats that defied anything a player could even hope to acheive... which kinda sucked the reality or believability of it right out the window.
Now, mobs have regeneration. They use specials. They have more reasonable health and similar armor. They're more like players and therin lies the new challenge. Again, its not perfect, but I believe its MUCH better.
Now if you REALLYwant to complain about anything post CU, we might want to discuss Jedi populations and all the issues surrounding the BE profession (weak stims, bio clothing, jacked up pet stats).
You're gloriously missing the point.
Prior to the grey con aggro nerf, nearly everything on Endor attacked me. Of course, none of it was worth fighting. XP for me killing level 70 critter as a level 80 player? 1 weapon XP. Which is why the devs made the destruction of the virtual reality complete by removing the aggravation of things you can't kill for XP ignore you.
On Endor, 99% of the mobs will not attack me unless I attack them or get right on top of them, or they move directly on top of me, and then the outcome is not in doubt unless they are social and have fellows around them, due to the level multipliers. They are NOT like players. They're weaker and less of a challenge than players well below my level. They're much weaker than they were to me as a master CH/master pistoleer prior to the CU.
The level system has rendered entire PLANETS beneath my attention from an XP perspective. This was not true prior to the CU. I could still get much greater XP off durnis and gnorts then than I can off mereks or blurrgs on Endor now.
But should you get XP off durnis? I mean what can a level 80 learn by peverbially clubbing a baby seal?
I think its better this way. If I want to kill Gnorts for an easy way to harvest nabooian herb meat... thats one thing. Its another to completly AFK grind all the way to master level by clubbing utterly weak mobs.
I agree that there could be a great deal more aggression. Particularly in areas like the warren. The warren has been reduced to little more then a maze/puzzle where level 80s can wander around unmolested. This has caused a huge influx of jedi/FS players and needs to be corrected ASAP.
I really think that the con system is a bit out of whack nowadays. My Jedi (Yeah, the guy whodubbed you Master Clone-Zerger) can walk around most places without being aggro'd. It is kind've ridiculous that I can walk around without critters attacking me. However, when I log on my BE, it's a completely different story. I walk 2 steps and get to be insta-incapped almost anywhere. I'm sorry, but if a critter is agressive, it's agressive. I have a hard time believing that the wild animals automatically know what level you are and thus, whether or not to attack.
Epichistonian wrote:
QuantumArtist wrote:
SioBabble wrote:
QuantumArtist wrote:
SioBabble wrote:
Nearly every last thing on Endor (Endor! In beta Endor was CERTAIN DEATH if you were careless!)cons grey to Tazz now, as a level 80 toon. He can move around with utter impunity around wild lairs. Sure, there's the Gorax and the DWB. But the rest of Endor? Unless he takes a mission, it's not worth his time.
Again I dissagree. Don your comp armor. Buff up and go on a rampant killing spree through the wilderness. That was pre CU.
The DWB was the only real exception, and that was only because the mobs were given insane stats that defied anything a player could even hope to acheive... which kinda sucked the reality or believability of it right out the window.
Now, mobs have regeneration. They use specials. They have more reasonable health and similar armor. They're more like players and therin lies the new challenge. Again, its not perfect, but I believe its MUCH better.
Now if you REALLYwant to complain about anything post CU, we might want to discuss Jedi populations and all the issues surrounding the BE profession (weak stims, bio clothing, jacked up pet stats).
You're gloriously missing the point.
Prior to the grey con aggro nerf, nearly everything on Endor attacked me. Of course, none of it was worth fighting. XP for me killing level 70 critter as a level 80 player? 1 weapon XP. Which is why the devs made the destruction of the virtual reality complete by removing the aggravation of things you can't kill for XP ignore you.
On Endor, 99% of the mobs will not attack me unless I attack them or get right on top of them, or they move directly on top of me, and then the outcome is not in doubt unless they are social and have fellows around them, due to the level multipliers. They are NOT like players. They're weaker and less of a challenge than players well below my level. They're much weaker than they were to me as a master CH/master pistoleer prior to the CU.
The level system has rendered entire PLANETS beneath my attention from an XP perspective. This was not true prior to the CU. I could still get much greater XP off durnis and gnorts then than I can off mereks or blurrgs on Endor now.
But should you get XP off durnis? I mean what can a level 80 learn by peverbially clubbing a baby seal?
I think its better this way. If I want to kill Gnorts for an easy way to harvest nabooian herb meat... thats one thing. Its another to completly AFK grind all the way to master level by clubbing utterly weak mobs.
I agree that there could be a great deal more aggression. Particularly in areas like the warren. The warren has been reduced to little more then a maze/puzzle where level 80s can wander around unmolested. This has caused a huge influx of jedi/FS players and needs to be corrected ASAP.
He would be known as the greatest seal-poacher of all time
I really think that the con system is a bit out of whack nowadays. My Jedi (Yeah, the guy whodubbed you Master Clone-Zerger) can walk around most places without being aggro'd. It is kind've ridiculous that I can walk around without critters attacking me. However, when I log on my BE, it's a completely different story. I walk 2 steps and get to be insta-incapped almost anywhere. I'm sorry, but if a critter is agressive, it's agressive. I have a hard time believing that the wild animals automatically know what level you are and thus, whether or not to attack.
Actually I'm the clone zerger! Me Me Me!!! 
You have a point about the aggro. A mean animal is a mean animal and should act as such. I think they more or less applied a general AI to the whole creature gambit and didnt leave space for just mean tempered animals or NPCs with a kill on sight complex.
This should be easily remedied, particularly in specificthemeparks like the warren.
QuantumArtist wrote:
But should you get XP off durnis? I mean what can a level 80 learn by peverbially clubbing a baby seal?
I think its better this way. If I want to kill Gnorts for an easy way to harvest nabooian herb meat... thats one thing. Its another to completly AFK grind all the way to master level by clubbing utterly weak mobs.
I agree that there could be a great deal more aggression. Particularly in areas like the warren. The warren has been reduced to little more then a maze/puzzle where level 80s can wander around unmolested. This has caused a huge influx of jedi/FS players and needs to be corrected ASAP.
Again, you are missing the point.
And by the way, babies OF ALL TYPES have always been next to no XP.
However, the situation we now have is such that I get the same XP from killing a baby durni as I get from killing a wild lair merek assassin.
You do not see the problem with this?
The point here is that the level system is totally inappropriate for this game. Creatures should be worth what they are worth in XP based on their inate characteristics, not based on my level. This is the fatal flaw in the level system. When a lesser plains bol from a mission lair (mind you in the wild these are level 10 critters) gives me as much XP as a voritor dasher from a mission lair (mind you in the wild these are level 30ish critters) then something is inherently wrong, and that something is a level system that IGNORES the inate characteristics of the creature in favor of the "angry bag" system to create "challenge".
Why you cannot grasp this very simple concept frankly flabbergasts me.