Bio Engineer Archive
Thread: BE Clones too powerful??
Not to mention TKM's, especially in PvE...
I was out sampling Sharnaff one day and some TKM came up to "help" me. I said "Excuse me, I was trying to sample that", so he spammed UA3 and killed the entire spawn in 20 seconds or so and said "Next time show me some respect and politely as me to move on". I said "Bite me" so he finished the mission for me by spamming the nest and everything that spawned out of it. A mission that takes me 10-20 minutes (MCH/Pistol), this guy (TKM with Doc buffs) finished in about 3 minutes flat.
There are unbalanced things in SWG, but BE/CH ain't one of them...
CL is a determination of overall toughness. Not how useful it is, therefore the damage the animal causes it's very much part of the equasion. The reason why people tend to breed the damage out for tanks is because they need the staying power, that isn't overpowered since we know that the player has to provide the damage. Sure it helps but frankly a pet which has the damage AND resistances when combined with a players power results in a far faster win and less healing on behalf of the player to the pet.
Just because something is especially good at a certain role doesn't make it overpowered, for example since it's easy for the master to draw aggro now the player could be lying on the floor as the pet ends up causing pittifully small amounts of damage and will ultimately lose to anyting of a high CL which isn't poor with kinetic protections. What this game really needs though is enemies using more varieties of damage types, would it be such a stretch for Arachne to cause acid and kinetic damage with thier hits? They are toxic afterall. The fact is that it's not that the pets are overpowered, it's because the games damage types are so focussed around kinetics that a good 80% of the time you don't need the others so it's easy to make a very good tank which can wade into most situations and lower the CL by making it weaker to everything else with full knowledge that it's still combat effective.
http://www.swgcreatures.com/detail.asp?creatureID=10
Found the detail for that Mynock. You can see how it's got light armor, cause it's massivey vulnerable to kinetic damage so that renders it kinda useless for PvE and PvP as well. It's probably possible to neutralize that kinetic weakness though through a few generations but I doubt it'll be fantastically easy to get the CL under 30.
http://www.swgcreatures.com/detail.asp?creatureID=10
Found the detail for that Mynock. You can see how it's got light armor, cause it's massivey vulnerable to kinetic damage so that renders it kinda useless for PvE and PvP as well. It's probably possible to neutralize that kinetic weakness though through a few generations but I doubt it'll be fantastically easy to get the CL under 30.
Ahh the sulfur Mynocks. I heard from other CH that they were awesome pets (pre patch that is) never looked for it as I dont like bird skins. Nevertheless, that pet would actually be good for running faction missions as is 
Little Bio-Engineering might also add a nice touch...some hill side gurreck DNA perhaps? Take away some of those ugly vuls...
Vezek
CL is a determination of overall toughness. Not how useful it is, therefore the damage the animal causes it's very much part of the equasion. The reason why people tend to breed the damage out for tanks is because they need the staying power, that isn't overpowered since we know that the player has to provide the damage. Sure it helps but frankly a pet which has the damage AND resistances when combined with a players power results in a far faster win and less healing on behalf of the player to the pet.
Just because something is especially good at a certain role doesn't make it overpowered, for example since it's easy for the master to draw aggro now the player could be lying on the floor as the pet ends up causing pittifully small amounts of damage and will ultimately lose to anyting of a high CL which isn't poor with kinetic protections. What this game really needs though is enemies using more varieties of damage types, would it be such a stretch for Arachne to cause acid and kinetic damage with thier hits? They are toxic afterall. The fact is that it's not that the pets are overpowered, it's because the games damage types are so focussed around kinetics that a good 80% of the time you don't need the others so it's easy to make a very good tank which can wade into most situations and lower the CL by making it weaker to everything else with full knowledge that it's still combat effective.
Oh I agree with with you 99% actually
Damage though means nothing as your pet will never kill much on it own without you... with or without a gimped damage output...
We all know that if you gimp armor/res and ham, the little damage increase will be outweighted by your pets decreased survivability. While you're laying on the ground it will only be a matter of time before your pet joins you... Better to get it to last while you are incapped....
**IF** they had creatures do more damage types that would balance out BE critter a little more. However, that is just not the way the game is set-up atm... Most PvE critters do kinetic... and atm BE simply take a skin, add high kinetics with armor and ham...sample away the damage.. and now you have a all-star pet that shames all others that will tank AND give the CH more combat EXP LoL
Personally I would like to see some damage variation in PvE to make not only different pets more interesting but also to make things more challenging... Not without making insured items not decay though... That would just cause a whole new set of problems...
The bottom line, getting back to topic, I want there to be a balance between the CH and BE professions...not that that means anything LoL Not like SOE listens hehe
But it would be nice if both BE and CH could work together in such a way that allows both professions to "florish".
However, what I am basically seeing is that both BE and CH have different ideas of what each should be... The DEVs really need to start being more communitive with the community so that we can better understand how this is all going to start to fit together via these new combat/professional patches....
You have to understand that CH right now is next to useless...
1. We arent good in PvE without other combat skills.With combat skills and increased mob difficultypets become more and more useless...
2. PvP.... ROFLMAO... nuff said
3. There is little market in the non-ch... Once the new droids come out that will be the final nail. Market gone.
4. The CH market has gone to the BEs with very little demand for any wild pets...
5. Mounts... see number 2
I'm waiting to see how these patches work out... But **IF** things dont change I and many other MCH are not going to stay in the profession... What does that do to the BE??? Destroys a huge market... There goes my other profession.
I'll find another profession to play...I'm not crying and saying I'm just going to quit... but what a freaking waste of two cool professions that, IMHO, are the best two in the game...
BE is here to pretty much compliment CH's, because without them, 99% of our pets would have no purpose other then to be used as showroom furniture.
While AoE attacks are somewhat open for discussion, CH still get that ability inside pets they tame, whereas BE don't get some of the cooler attacks graphed to the pets.
There are supposed to be pros/cons to every profession, and for the longest time the BE profession was full of cons, so now that we actually serve a purpose in the game, it sucks when people call for our heads.
Tal-N hits it on the head when he basically says people don't really take into account what goes into a CL rating, people just seem to look at raw stats (Such as HAM) and get all bent when they don't see a wild creature that isn't close to those HAM stats.
MCH should be happy that BE have more power to create better and customized clones, and like I said before, without CH 99% of our stuff would not be usable.
What in turn that proves is one simple fact, these high end creatures still require CH to use them, which in turn allows that same CH to go out and find a creature based on the same CL. So in terms of taming pets and selling them, you are pretty much just selling those pets to a CH who is too lazy to go find the pet themselves.
I guess we have to wait and see what SOE has in store to "level" out the CL of BE clones. But as it stands, I thought I read somewhere that BE clones had the ability to be "Better" than the wild clones of the same CL.
Also what is "Unbalancing" was the fact that 90% of people who took CH before they rearranged the stats were getting almost full advantage of the profession by wasting minimal skill points. This "nerf" as you like to call it was long overdue and now gives being a master CH something to shoot for.
Njvenge
I guess you don't notice that CH are the only ones who can obtain "Fliers" and snakes? Maybe I missed it, but we can't make sulfer mynocks (whereas you can tame them) and crystal snakes.
Make "Fliers" and snakes??? You meanwe dont have that skin??? LoL That balances everything out
Seriously though what "skin" a creature has really isnt important.
BE is here to pretty much compliment CH's, because without them, 99% of our pets would have no purpose other then to be used as showroom furniture.
Key word is "compliment" and to that I agree.
While AoE attacks are somewhat open for discussion, CH still get that ability inside pets they tame, whereas BE don't get some of the cooler attacks graphed to the pets.
Pet specials, AOE or any other, are next to worthless 99% of the time. Maybe AoE like disease can be a good griefing special in PvP if you dont mind your uber rare pet loosing vitality.... I hardly call that any kind of CH/BE balance...
There are supposed to be pros/cons to every profession, and for the longest time the BE profession was full of cons, so now that we actually serve a purpose in the game, it sucks when people call for our heads.
Tal-N hits it on the head when he basically says people don't really take into account what goes into a CL rating, people just seem to look at raw stats (Such as HAM) and get all bent when they don't see a wild creature that isn't close to those HAM stats.
I agree that BE was filled with almost nothing but cons... But that really isnt an excuse to nerf the hell outa one class while doing the complete opposite with its "sister" class.
As far as what Tal-N said I agree most people dont look at what is all taken into account... Why?
Because they are looking at the only thing that truely matters ATM: Ham/armor/Res.
I've truely made it as clear as I could that pets are 100% useless in an offensive role... Only exception is with newbie mobs with a low level character.
So what people (mostly CH) are seeing is that a pet that a BE just cranked out has every stat that matters nearly maxed out that are better then even the super rare tamables **WITH** a much lower level.
MCH should be happy that BE have more power to create better and customized clones, and like I said before, without CH 99% of our stuff would not be usable......
I guess we have to wait and see what SOE has in store to "level" out the CL of BE clones. But as it stands, I thought I read somewhere that BE clones had the ability to be "Better" than the wild clones of the same CL.
We should be happy that you can create a "customized" (high kinetic/armored/res/ low level CL) critter that just about wipes out our own market that a lot of CH used to not only make the game fun but to make some money????????
CH would have been happy if BE was able to tweak pets... while it is dull to just have a pre-existing templet and modify a slider bar to adjust things like armor, res, ham, etc etc that system would have offered a fair balance. Wild pets would still be useful and desirable but those CH that wanted specialized pets for specific purposes could have one truely "custom" made..
When I think of a custom Dodge Ram, for instance, I dont expect to see a car that has a Viper engine, a Lexus body design, with corvett wheels, and a ford emblom (sp?)!!!! Thats not custom in the sense most of us think of when we think custom cars... custom usually means some added perks with added costs.... not an all out better car that just owns the default car!
But that is what BE are doing right now... The new system is cool and complex and exciting... but it also takes advantage of the fact that PvE (the only semi useful combat that pets are somewhat good for) is black and white.... A pet tanks and acts as bio armor or bio buff while the owner shoots or slashes away...
Also what is "Unbalancing" was the fact that 90% of people who took CH before they rearranged the stats were getting almost full advantage of the profession by wasting minimal skill points. This "nerf" as you like to call it was long overdue and now gives being a master CH something to shoot for.
I would encourage you to look at the CH forums. Almost all of us, including me, love the new skill tree. I didnt consider that to be a CH nerf at all!!! That was a dabbler nerf.
However, lowering all the stats of all our pets, taking away armor from all but one 35 or less creature is a nerf... While I'm fine with lowering the non-ch level to 10, I'm not fine with there being NO pets that are even somewhat decent that are of level 10.. that nerfed our non-ch pet market... then giving BE all these new abilities to make these incredible pets that are better then even the most super rare wild pet (in all the stats that matter) with a CL of 20-30 not only is a kick in the balls but killed our CH market....
What we have now is a class that is weaker then EVER... useless in PvP totally... that has less motivation then ever to go out and tame pets ourselves when we can buy better ones then any of the ones we can EVER find ATM, with NO market in the non-ch department OR CH department.
All we can do is have bird skins, snake skins, worhtless AoE specials, and uhhhhh... well that is it.... Thats what we have LoL
Like I said, I'll see how these new combat re-balancing (nerfs) go before I jump this boat for good and look for greener pastures... but it's not looking good... I would have thought some of my fellow BE would have had a little more empathy here since CH is now pretty much what BE was....next to useless.
I would have thought some of my fellow BE would have had a little more empathy here since CH is now pretty much what BE was....next to useless.
Ok, sorry for that drama LoL
I'm tired and got a little carried away in that last part.
I do think you guys understand... Last thing yall want (or me for that matter) is for BE to suck again... but with out CH being fun all the cool clones in the SWG universe wont make much of a difference as they will just be littering vendors and houses without any CH to "play" with em.
