Bio Engineer Archive
Thread: BE Clones too powerful??
Am I the only BE who thinks that we went from beingway to broke of a profession to one that is way to powerful (when it comes to pet clones)?
I picked up Novice BE back in October and stopped at 0-3-0-4 as clones where useless and the only thing that worked was pet stims... Still I enjoyed it but took a break for a bit.. After I fired the crafting station up a week or so ago I decided to try the new cloning system...
I made a freaking 6kham vir vir bunny.... I think there is something very wrong with a bunny that can tank as good as a grand wrix...Even better if you had better DNA with RES across the board and armor...
I personally think BE should be only able to dabble with pre-existing stats by taking some outa one area and adding it to another...change the color...basically customizing the pet... Maybe we could add in "pet buff" and maybe even have some rareloot that can be made into "boosters" that can up one attribute perm during creation(sorta like krayt with guns...increase the speed/damage somewhat).. Maybe something like a pet slice... with a chance of failure that could lower the stat...
But being able to completely own all wild pets creates a LOT of resentment from our CH brothers who we depend on for a lot of business.
Not to mention it **IS** unbalancing when the CH profession went through a big nerf to help make way for a complete combat re-balancing only to have these same "uber" creatures recreated all over again.
Ithink the way things are right now just is taking the whole BE cloning too far. Level 35 and under pets where not suppose to have armor..let alone armor with 60%-100%res across the board. I know they are looking to nerf this already by invalidating some creatures but I think the whole new system needs a overhaul.
There is a lot that can be done with BE both in the area of clones and beyound... I don't think this is the right way to go with it.
What do yall think?
Vezek So yes I would think it is right that my little bunny is CL 58 with 60 kinetic 80 to most resist and does 500 damage with 2 special ranged attacks hehe. The exact kinda thing I would try to make hehe. Throws off the opponent big time when lil' BugsyMalone suddenly thinks he is a giant carrot.
Kosman
Evil Imperial Master Bioengineer
"Wanna pet my bunny?"
What is needed is not a nerf, but rather education. The skin doesn't matter. Stats and CL matter. If you make a 6K HAM vir vur whose CL is roughly (accounting for the BE bonus) the same as a 6K creature found in the wild, how is that unbalancing. I don't recall the current thinking on CL, but CL 30 = CL 30 = CL 30. It doesn't matter if the skin is a bunny, a kitty, a doggy, or some big ugly.
In fact, since bunnies are slow, a 6K HAM bunny is kind of silly but the customer is always right.
No sir, we don't need a nerf we need education...so a nerf is inevitable.
I am rather fond of the new cloning system. Level 35 creatures with armor and 60% kinetic are beyond the scope of the average dabbler, providing a nice bonus to moderately skilled CH's and MCH's alike. Those same creatures come with a bit of a compromise.. they lose a bit on the to hit and damage side of things, compared tosome other possible combinations in the same level range- not a ton, but it's definitely noticable.
The new system rewards creative combinations and truly working at a creature creation, with a significant luck factor which strongly influences multi generation DNA. Failures and critical fails during experimentation or assembly can really take the wind out of a BE's sails after spending days, literally, working on a masterpiece. Work long and hard at a creature, we can get some amazing results..
As for the 6K HAM bunny.. it was either higher, probably a fair bit, than CL10 or else it was created by using questionable DNA prior to the hotfix. Making a CL10 creature with even 2K ham is a challenge since the hotfix, let alone trying to add a few resists. The bunny skin is inconsequential, except for influencing the movement speed of the created creature. The skin doesn't really mean anything now. Don't think of creatures by their skins, start thinking of them as the end result genetic template stuffed into some shell.
Lastly, and forgive my bluntness, but why the heck should BE's want CH's to tame wild creatures that equal, or very close to, our own creations? When a player wants to buy ablaster or sword, do they go to a dancer to get it? Dodroid engineers or merchantsheal battle fatigue? No? So why should every profession be reliant upon one another, except for the creature handler? I understand, they're resentful because they are comfortable with the familiar old ways and are adverse to these recent changes. Despite empathizing, I certainly don't pity them.. they're only just begining to come into line with the exsistence most professions have endured since the inception of SWG - relying upon others fora significantfacet of their profession. At least they still dohave the option of taming wild creatures, plenty of servicable creatures for a moderately skilled CH to acquire. But if a CH wants to go from a "scout blaster to an FWG5" of pets, they're going to come to a BE.. finally..
Cheers!
[Post Script] My business partner is a MCH/Ranger and I am aCH dabbler.. pets remain terribly useful, even if only using a new Toxic Merek Battlelord for tanking. The CH profession is still amazingly popular(go figure), so there cannot be so many folks upset so as to actually drop CH yet. Maybe over time.. but not presently.
I hate to use the word nerf 
But a change so that BE and CH can co-exist peacefully each able to enjoy their profession without feeling as though one is stepping on the other's toes...
I think there are a lot of positive changes.. I like the new system's complexity. It's a challenge to learn and has a lot of possibilities... maybe it could be overhauled so that it works more in balance with creatures in general...
Alevel 30 creature is not alwaysa level 30....I have yet to see a level 31 creature(s) in the wild thatI created in a Gurrcat skin with 9kham and 60% res with NO vulnerabilities and 240-250 damage @ 2.16secs. Maybe they just need to get the level more in line with wild creatures of the same ability....
BUT I do think a vir vir bunny out tanking a wild Gurreck is just unrealistic and silly... I know it's just a skin but it just adds to the "cartoon" feel of this game....
What would be nice is if we could find a balance between these two awesome professions that would compliment one another.. Have a balanced system...and one that adds to a real science fiction feeling... not saturday morning cartoons
This might be rambling at this point as I have been up over 24hrs now lol Think it's time for bed hehe
hehe ok I will go to bed after this
Those same creatures come with a bit of a compromise.. they lose a bit on the to hit and damage side of things, compared tosome other possible combinations in the same level range- not a ton, but it's definitely noticable
The main reason most people use pets in combat is to take damage not deliever it =) Buyers are more then happy to gimp a creatures damage, lower its level while raising its health, armor, and res.
Maybe if damage/hit was more of a factor this would indeed be a balance...
The new system rewards creative combinations and truly working at a creature creation, with a significant luck factor which strongly influences multi generation DNA. Failures and critical fails during experimentation or assembly can really take the wind out of a BE's sails after spending days, literally, working on a masterpiece. Work long and hard at a creature, we can get some amazing results..
I do agree with you alot here. It can be a rewarding exp for the BE (or tragic). There is a lot I like about the "process" as well....
As for the 6K HAM bunny.. it was either higher, probably a fair bit, than CL10 or else it was created by using questionable DNA prior to the hotfix. Making a CL10 creature with even 2K ham is a challenge since the hotfix, let alone trying to add a few resists. The bunny skin is inconsequential, except for influencing the movement speed of the created creature. The skin doesn't really mean anything now. Don't think of creatures by their skins, start thinking of them as the end result genetic template stuffed into some shell.
I'm pretty sure this one was before the hot fix as I'm positive it wasnt above level 15. However, even with the hot fix have seen a good bit of BE pets that are overall much better then the wild ones while being a LOT lower in level... As far as the skins... I've said it a few times... I think it is just silly and make SWG too "toonish". I know it's just a game but a vir vir going toe to toe with a Rancor.... might be funny but NOT Star Warish IMHO
Lastly, and forgive my bluntness, but why the heck should BE's want CH's to tame wild creatures that equal, or very close to, our own creations?
Actually this is one of the big issues.. CH argue that this is their lively hood.. this is why they are CH. They want to go out and tame creatures that not only are a challenge but are also useful AND something that can show status of their dedication via the pet being "uber".
Even though a BE puts a hell of a lot of work into it too the CH is left feeling empty. The CH who isnt much in PvP and who isnt a lot without other combat skills in PvE feels this (pet finding, taming, selling) is a critical part to being a CH.
All I'm saying is why not see if there is a way that these two profession can coexist without p*ssing one another off...
There are a lot of bio-engineering things a BE can do that does have to include putting to shame all the hard found/tamed pets both rare and uber rare... CH should also be able to make a living within their profession of animals...such as selling animals..or atleast having a fair share in the market.... Right now, with the FUBAR economy, any newbie after a week can buy a 100k BE pet.... how does that make a MCH feel who had to slave for weeks to get one uber pet.....
You do bring up interesting points though. I might not have addressed everything but I cant keep my eyes open anymore
Excuse the typos and grammer no time to proof hehe
the thing about CH's are.. .they are creature Handlers, not simply creature tamers. Taming creatures in the wild is still a part of their profession, but not the only , end all-be all of their profession. No reason ch's cant use BE pets like that 1st week newbie you mentioned. And that newb still needs the commands trained into the pet, so CH's are not cut out.
We had a 'war' on these boards concerning the making of pets just after the new patch. There were some absolute monstrocities being created out there and some felt they were out of line. The Devs agreed and did a hot fix. The hot fix fouled up more than it fixed, but at least they are aware of the problem and working on it. One thing tho.. there isnt one BE out there (well maybe you) that feels that be's should not be able to make pets better than wild versions. A couple of levels... perhaps a percentage over (say 40%... a cl 10 be pet would be equal to a cl 14 in the wild, but a cl 50 be pet would be equal to a cl 70 pet in the wild... just a thought)
try this for me next time log on ..../mask, /prone ...target a mutant rancor, /follow , /sample dna
dont know where your getting the 60 kin 100 to rest stuff at, the best I have made, and Im pretty sure Ihave sampled everything 50+ except for the spiders in the dath cave, is around 60 kin 70-80 heat cold elec with at least one vuln or 3-25% to subresists
a 6k ham lvl whatever with 2.36 speed .23 to hit 110-120 will not hold aggro well at all, so the ham really doesnt matter alot, a pet with 1.98 .68 to hit 590-600 with no armor 40 kin will drop fast high end
its all give and take as most that have played with the system know, high end dna is hell to sample as is, not to mention just finding the spawns, the system has its stopgaps, if it didnt every CH would have datapad full by now
I am a MCH on my primary character, have been for 4 or 5 minths now, BE's are finally comeing into thier own, the way they shouldve been at release, its about time if ask me
Noen Windryder MCH/ Master Swordsman/ Medic 4/3/4/0
Kadore Damader Master Bioengineer / Ranger 4/2/4/4 / Artisan 0/0/3/0
KillerCRS Writes
Which is why CH gets a much wider variety of pets, many we cannot make, and they get to tame pets with very wicked special attacks we cannot make clones with.
The only specials I'm aware that dont carry over are AOE specials... Some people swear by them while others say it is worthless...
As far as variety, I would say one way to balance CH and BE while not changing (nerfing) anything would be to atleast give CH a few pets (rare) that could be just as good or close to BE pets at both high and medium levels....
However, variety in the wild just doesnt account for much ATM because 98% of wild pets arent even worth having other then for the cosmetic value.
GryphonsRose Writes:
No reason ch's cant use BE pets like that 1st week newbie you mentioned. And that newb still needs the commands trained into the pet, so CH's are not cut out.
You're right
However, you have to remember that post patch a CH (newbie to master) could make a living selling wild creatures... Now, that market is gone and the only thing that is left really is training...
However, there is no money in training...least not the kind to make any kind of worth while cash... I'll spare you the complexties of why that is but trust me...no money there
The Devs agreed and did a hot fix. The hot fix fouled up more than it fixed, but at least they are aware of the problem and working on it. One thing tho.. there isnt one BE out there (well maybe you) that feels that be's should not be able to make pets better than wild versions. A couple of levels... perhaps a percentage over (say 40%... a cl 10 be pet would be equal to a cl 14 in the wild, but a cl 50 be pet would be equal to a cl 70 pet in the wild... just a thought)
What exactly did it foul up? Only thing I'm aware that it did was invalidate pets that should have never been able to be created...
As far as BE not being able to make better pets then the wild versions I dont think I quite ever suggested that. Just that there is a balance... I offered some suggestions and I'm sure there are other better ones that can achieve this balance.. The system right now is just not fair to anyone but the BE pocket books and power gaming CH who are more then happy to get a uber pet to tank high level mobs, krayts, and FS NPC with...
The level idea you had is a excellent start... Levels need to be more in balance taking into account both offensive **AND** defensive stats... I would have less of a problem if BE simply made similar creatures or slightly better creatures with CL 25%-35% less...
The end result should be something that would be worthwhile to buy but not something that just puts to shame everything else... Then you could atleast have a market where the BE pets were slightly better but more and CH pets that were slighly worse yet cheaper.... now you have BE pets that are expensive as all hell with pets that are UBER and CH pets that have next to no market...
Kadore2000 Writes:
its all give and take as most that have played with the system know, high end dna is hell to sample as is, not to mention just finding the spawns, the system has its stopgaps, if it didnt every CH would have datapad full by now
Agreed that it is a lot of work and knowledge... There is still enough BE pets of quality to destroy the market for wild one however..
Also the biggest demand is not the CL 36+ pets... its really the 20-35CL pets as those can be paired...Only one pet that I heard of (not personally confirmed) has armor... It's not incredibly difficult to get a good 30-35cl armored BE pet with good res... two 30-35pets with armor,res, and 8-11k ham is a better tank then one uber cl36-70 pet...atleast from what I've seen so far...
So what I'm trying to say is those really hard to make creatures really isnt balacning things out
TsiyaAma Writes:
Ireally feel the split here...I see CH pets as the specialists...in certain things, like AOE attacks and some resists, we can't match wild pets...and we provide the all-around pets, that can go up against pretty much anything, and not do as well in certain situations as wild ones, but doing better overall in a variety of situations...
True BE cannot do SOE but that counts out what? The screetcher with its area of disease? Something only useful in PvP.. and most CH will agree that CH doesnt have a place a PvP atm... not when a TKA can kick the sh*t outa (literally) even the best BE pet in under 20 secs.
I cannot really think of any PvE situation where a data pad of 3-5 BE pets cant take of everything... Any examples??
Tal-N Writes:
You also need to know just what is out in the wild, for starters there is a mynock on Lok which is CL33 and has light armor so this says to me that clones under CL30 with light armor can be pulled off legally however without seeing the stats for the other resists or the HAM and damage its hard to know if the light armor is really worth it.
I dunno if I would agree with that... I never knew of that mynock...though I dont spend much time on Lok.. Chances are if it does have armor then it is either rare or sucky stats, or both.
That one case, IMHO shouldnt then say that armor should be allowed in BE pets lower then 30! That is really crazy to me.. I mean what was the point of this combat re-balancing that was responsible for the CH nerf if BE are just going to bring it back to where it was before anyhow???
The fact though is that when I look around my showroom comparing the various animals you can see a system at work, the most well protected clones suffer from HAM or damage reductions for sample, however some of the most powerful ones are severly lacking in protection with multiple weaknesses. I mean if you saw a recent creation of mine which had 50% kinetic, 11k of HAM at CL27 and 400 damage then base on these 3 stats you'd scream that it was overpowered. Then when you realise it's vulnerable to just about everything else you start seeing why it isn't.
The problem is damage means nothing... That's how BE's get there low cl pets.. sample the agressivenesss away through generational sampling... You're left with a good ham/armor/res tank which is all a power gamingCH wants anyhow.
I have seen several BE pets on Endor this week with high res across the board with armor and 11k ham... something like 60% kinetic and 80% is two and several 50%s... not one Vul...
I mean come on.. that is just STUPID.. get 3 of those and thats all you need. Granted not all pets are like that and maybe that one was exploited... However CH still can take 20 pets and that's way more then enough to get a variety of 3-5BE pets that cover all the basic.. It would take almost all a CH slots to do the same with wild pets... now is that fair or balanced?
Look, I knew some asshat was going to one starred this thread. But the fact of the matter is, BE is just unblanced right now... it went from doing NOTHING it said it should **to** doing everything is said it should x 10.
Dont take it from me... look at this forum.. what do you see? Thread after thread with how to make uber pets with high ham, armor,and high res....
I know this sounds great from a BE pov but it not only is screwing alot of CH it's also unbalancing the game with pets that went extinct with last patch for balance reasons...
Now consider what will happen after the final two combat re-balacing patches happen (nerfs to the other combat classes)... now not only will these uber BE pets kill in PvE but also PvP... how long till the whinners have BE neutered and then some.. It cannot stay this way and still be fair IMHO.
I conceed I have no idea what the next to patches will bring but I can say that, IMHO, BE clones are just way too powerful.