Bio Engineer Archive
Thread: Top Bio-Engineer Issues Jan 05
Zadokk wrote:
/grumble
still think CL10 should be higher. nice list though, hopefully we can get some major problems sorted out soon.
Hmm. When presenting the CL10 issue, I think it might be a good idea to draw a parallel between droids and pets... CL10 is a nonCH pet, and all droids are nonCH pets. Anything you can get out of the best droid, should be available at CL10 (as far as BE goes).
Of course, I don't know if this means they would adjust droids down or pets up, but I can get a 4k HAM droid, but not a 4k HAM pet at CL10. And the droid will have ranged attacks, light armor, and do electrical damage. Ooooooooo....
yeah, too tired... sleeping now...
TrinityIsaak wrote:
Don't know if this has been mentioned but I would love to see Mask Scent Bonuses in the hunting tree, or maybe even mask scent itself there. Because skill points are so tight it is difficult for me to allocate the points into Exploration, but I have to because I couldn't sample anything red if I didn't.
While it isn't in this time's top five, it seems to me that the real fallacy comes from the fact that the game prerequisites and the real prerequisites are not the same.
Exploration IV should be added to the prerequisites for novice bio-engineer, since, for all practical purposes, mask scent is required to be a decent pet-making bio-engineer.
Those 14 skill points then should be taken off the bio-engineering tree and allowed for use in the profession of our choice--say artisan so that we can get a vendor.
I'd even be happy if master scout were made a prerequisite and all42 additional points freed up from the BE tree. You could justify it by making a specific trap that aids in keeping a creature still for sampling and by having a food and chemical crafting station as part of the advanced camp kits.
Hylidex wrote:
TrinityIsaak wrote:
Don't know if this has been mentioned but I would love to see Mask Scent Bonuses in the hunting tree, or maybe even mask scent itself there. Because skill points are so tight it is difficult for me to allocate the points into Exploration, but I have to because I couldn't sample anything red if I didn't.
While it isn't in this time's top five, it seems to me that the real fallacy comes from the fact that the game prerequisites and the real prerequisites are not the same.
Exploration IV should be added to the prerequisites for novice bio-engineer, since, for all practical purposes, mask scent is required to be a decent pet-making bio-engineer.
Those 14 skill points then should be taken off the bio-engineering tree and allowed for use in the profession of our choice--say artisan so that we can get a vendor.
I'd even be happy if master scout were made a prerequisite and all42 additional points freed up from the BE tree. You could justify it by making a specific trap that aids in keeping a creature still for sampling and by having a food and chemical crafting station as part of the advanced camp kits.
Actually, Hylidex, a food and chemical crafting station is I believe a part of the "tech field camp" or one of the higher Ranger camps. However, I do totally agree as far as the way the real requirements for a functional, happy BE. It is impossible to be a viable BE without having Mask Scent, unless you deal solely in tissues (which can be had for few SP). A real world approach to what BE is and entails (as I've noted they are doing over yonder in the Ranger forums) I don't see being an answer, as I know a genetecist.I'd hate to have his requirements put into game mechanics with added hunting skills. It's actually a little tough to look at the skill set and see how the SP investment is returned in BE... I think that the cost of being a BE needs to be looked at seriously.
However, I have to refer to the post in NancyJ's Dev Communication thread where the Devs heard this complaint and replied (paraphrased): You've got the skillpoints you need to master BE, have a vendor, and still dabble in some combat. We ain't changing it; you're not supposed to be able to do everything. (At least, that's the message I got from it... if I knew how to link to that post, I'd do it.
Of course, I've found that by giving up any and all combat skills, you can almost be a successful, well rounded MBE... As a MBE/MCH/0030Ranger, I have all aspects of the creature trade covered. (Yes, I also have 0004 Medic, but that is useless as I can't make anything like a doctor's quality, and can't heal any better than the average joe.) I also can craft excellent tissues. I can wish for a vendor, but... So I'm not making BIG money, I have a fair number of loyal customers found by hanging around the starport with my title showing.
Felisconcolori wrote:
Hylidex wrote:
TrinityIsaak wrote:
Don't know if this has been mentioned but I would love to see Mask Scent Bonuses in the hunting tree, or maybe even mask scent itself there. Because skill points are so tight it is difficult for me to allocate the points into Exploration, but I have to because I couldn't sample anything red if I didn't.
While it isn't in this time's top five, it seems to me that the real fallacy comes from the fact that the game prerequisites and the real prerequisites are not the same.
Exploration IV should be added to the prerequisites for novice bio-engineer, since, for all practical purposes, mask scent is required to be a decent pet-making bio-engineer.
Those 14 skill points then should be taken off the bio-engineering tree and allowed for use in the profession of our choice--say artisan so that we can get a vendor.
I'd even be happy if master scout were made a prerequisite and all42 additional points freed up from the BE tree. You could justify it by making a specific trap that aids in keeping a creature still for sampling and by having a food and chemical crafting station as part of the advanced camp kits.
Actually, Hylidex, a food and chemical crafting station is I believe a part of the "tech field camp" or one of the higher Ranger camps. However, I do totally agree as far as the way the real requirements for a functional, happy BE. It is impossible to be a viable BE without having Mask Scent, unless you deal solely in tissues (which can be had for few SP). A real world approach to what BE is and entails (as I've noted they are doing over yonder in the Ranger forums) I don't see being an answer, as I know a genetecist.I'd hate to have his requirements put into game mechanics with added hunting skills. It's actually a little tough to look at the skill set and see how the SP investment is returned in BE... I think that the cost of being a BE needs to be looked at seriously.
However, I have to refer to the post in NancyJ's Dev Communication thread where the Devs heard this complaint and replied (paraphrased): You've got the skillpoints you need to master BE, have a vendor, and still dabble in some combat. We ain't changing it; you're not supposed to be able to do everything. (At least, that's the message I got from it... if I knew how to link to that post, I'd do it.
Of course, I've found that by giving up any and all combat skills, you can almost be a successful, well rounded MBE... As a MBE/MCH/0030Ranger, I have all aspects of the creature trade covered. (Yes, I also have 0004 Medic, but that is useless as I can't make anything like a doctor's quality, and can't heal any better than the average joe.) I also can craft excellent tissues. I can wish for a vendor, but... So I'm not making BIG money, I have a fair number of loyal customers found by hanging around the starport with my title showing.
You don't really need vendors, just go out and talk to tailors and chefs and do deliveries. They're much more likely to take your business if they don't have to leave their shop to get what they need.
Felisconcolori wrote:
However, I have to refer to the post in NancyJ's Dev Communication thread where the Devs heard this complaint and replied (paraphrased): You've got the skillpoints you need to master BE, have a vendor, and still dabble in some combat. We ain't changing it; you're not supposed to be able to do everything. (At least, that's the message I got from it... if I knew how to link to that post, I'd do it.
Funny how we were thinking along the same lines. I was responding to this same comment indirectly. If I remember correctly, he said, "it takes 121 skill points to be a master BE..." and went on to say that while this is a lot for one profession, it still leaves enough skill points to do other things.
My point was that it doesn't take 121 skill points, but 135, since mastering BE without a mask scent is harder than mastering rifleman would be with no rifle certifications. For all practical purposes, Exploration is essential to a BE. If it is already a real prerequisite, then it might as well be acknowledged as one. It is definitely more important to a BE than medicine crafting, since it IS possible to get another profession to make those components, while only a BE can sample DNA. This means we spend more than half our skill points mastering a single profession.
As for real-world requirements, I'd love it 
. I'm already comfortable with molecular biology. But I would demand thermocyclers in the game if we went that far. If we have to work that hard, we need PCR to create an infinite supply of DNA copies.
Message Edited by ArthurDentOnBria on 01-25-2005 04:04 PM
ArthurDentOnBria wrote:
One thing to remember about skillpoints is that we tend to be pretty sensitive about being "alts" to others. If the skill point requirements were to be reduced for BE, you'd probably see a lot more "BE alts" then you do today. Eventually we could become like merchants. Just a skill point sink that every other class has gotta "tack on" to their templates to be successful.
Message Edited by ArthurDentOnBria on 01-25-2005 04:04 PM
I don't see this as ever happening (the skill point sink), primarily because of the high cost of just getting to novice. And then there's the insane crafting grind... But I guess what really skins my cat (no pun, sorry), is that people are very concerned with "alts" taking away business. To me, this is a non-issue, because I have no alts, and do not ever foresee me having the ability (read: spare $60 and another $15/month) to run an "alt". I also haven't seen this reflected in Merchant, even after the vendor changes. Many of the people I interact with through my guild have "alts", and even the chefs are hesitant to tackle the challenge of BE. (The fact that I purposely mystify how my profession works to my customers helps, maybe... I have one guy (now grinding BE) that I convinced I could mutate already tamed pets. (A cool idea, not likely implementable any time soon.)
If you have an "alt", and you plan on being a Chef/Combat monkey with a BE/leser monkey alt avatar, reducing the skillpoints isn't really going to change that unless the skillpoint cost is reduced to where you can easily be a Master Chef/Master BE and still be a combat monkey. And I don't really see anyone becoming a hardcore BE "dabbler" anymore than people already do... Tissues are the only time when Chefs or Tailors really need us, and if they really want to, they could get Tissues IV and supply themselves if necessary (in part, because our skills just don't matter as much as the quality of the ingredients).
Hrm. I guess really the point I'm saying here is, if you have an Alt avatar for crafting purposes (to support your ubre-1337 commando/MBH/whatever), dropping skill points is largely not going to affect this as the Alt in question already (by forsaking all combat skills to support said ubre-1337 harbinger of doom) has enough SP to get what they need. A drop in skill points, however, might allow me to be able to be a Master BE, as well as be able to pick up the professions required of me to be a viable commercial maven.
Of course, most of my business is word of mouth and mail-order mounts, with very little tissue (thus, I am poor) sales, so it doesn't affect me much save from a game-play standpoint: I don't find it fun to die, and because of what I am (yes, choose to be), I find that I die very often.
(Great, I try to keep it short, and it just doesn't work... /sigh)
ArthurDentOnBria wrote:
One thing to remember about skillpoints is that we tend to be pretty sensitive about being "alts" to others. If the skill point requirements were to be reduced for BE, you'd probably see a lot more "BE alts" then you do today. Eventually we could become like merchants. Just a skill point sink that every other class has gotta "tack on" to their templates to be successful.
Message Edited by ArthurDentOnBria on 01-25-2005 04:04 PM
I'm not really suggesting reducing the skill points, but adding Exploration IV as a prerequisite, since for everyone who masters BE, it already is a necessity. Then, if 135 SP is considered acceptable for mastering BE, so be it, but if it is deemed excessive, to rebate some fraction of those points.
I'm just pushing for a more realistic view of the cost of the profession. The developers believe the profession costs 121 skill points, when it actually costs 135. I am thinking we should bring the real and assumed costs together. Whether it is at 121 or at 135 or some value in between is less important.
Then, once the paper model and actual game play are brought in line with each other, we can discuss other issues (vendors, skill points, etc) from a more realistic perspective.
Felisconcolori wrote:
Many of the people I interact with through my guild have "alts", and even the chefs are hesitant to tackle the challenge of BE. (The fact that I purposely mystify how my profession works to my customers helps, maybe... I
LOL. I TRY to explain it, and people are mystified. I've taken orders for pets before, with target level, HAM, and specials, and had people stand by me expecting me to craft it on the spot. For the most part, people have no idea of the complexity of the profession.
The fact that I LOVE that complexity is the only reason I'm still a BE. I die about 3 times a week in the Imperial crackdown, because I have a low-level rebel standing and only minimal combat ability. I don't make any money to speak of because most tissues are going for below the cost of their materials on my server, and pets have always cost me more to make, after I figure in insurance costs and decay ofitems,than I get from them. I can't survey, can't place my own vendor, and have most of my lot spaces tied up in DNA storage. There are plenty of reasons not to be a BE, but one that keeps me there. After a year, it is still intellectually challenging, and, quite simply, fun to do.
What I do see on Gorath is a marked increase in business in both pets and tissues on my vendors. Some of the best sellers are the very basics - Pet Stimpacks and Pet Vitality Packs. I can't keep them in stock. It doesn't hurt that I DO keep things in stock. The majority of BE vendors on Gorath are empty or nearly so.
The overall "ground" professions have taken major hits with the advent of the space portion of the game. It shows in the scarcity of harvested resources and the debris of empty vendors littering the server. It isn't just the BE profession that is dying out, but MOST professions that are ground based.
Kind of sad, really.
Anyway, thank you for pushing these issues for us, Arthur Dent. It's appreciated. And don't fear the "alts". ANY increase in the number of practicing BE's is a good thing.
Alixa