CUEmu - Thread Posts

JayceMilam

Sun May 09, 2004 3:45 pm

I understand the reason for BE is to take something from nature and through Biological Engineering make it better. That is the whole reason I chose BE in the first place. I have no problem with making a LVL 10 pet with 6k/4k/3k ham 20% kinetic& blast res and dmg around 100. I have made and sold pets with these type of stats as low as lvl8 repeatedly. This is definately stronger than any lvl 8 found out in the wilds. The point i was trying to make is that we need to be aware that going so far beyond what a naturally occuring lvl 10 is, is just asking for trouble. That is what I am worried about. We push the envelop too far and the devs might respond by limiting our ability to increase stats even further. I am in complete agreement that we have problems with our profession and issues that needto be addressed. Furthermore I think anything we can make regardless of ham, lvl, damage or resists should be legal, but the devs say that was not their intention. So they need to fix the class determination, PERIOD. In the meantime though I think it is detrimental to go so obviously beyond naturally occuring stats for lvl 10 pets.

Play with HONOR

JayceMilam

Sun May 09, 2004 9:24 pm

#15

I agree with you Templar 100% the system needs to be fixed. But you are missing my point. The devs to this point do not seem to be reasonable or logical about what is and is not valid as a pet. Nor do they seem to care if the pet check is fair or not. I think the whole thing is a mess and completely unfair to us as BE's. The point I am making is this; 10k 60% res pets with over 100% will draw negative attention to our profession and only cause adjustments we don't want. Whether a pet check algorithim is irrelavent, whether it is fair is irrelavent, whether we have been treated with respect or fairness is irrelavent. The fact is this, the devs have control over our profession, the direction it will take and any and all changes/fixes. If they say the lvl 10's we are making now are too powerful then that is there opinion and while ours may in fact be that they are not, the devs can change things. We can't. All we can do is voice our opinions here and hope they listen. If you read my previous post you will see that I said I think anything we can put into a pet and still get Lvl 10 or less in the current system should be legal. That is the point of a BE to take dna and engineer something better than nature can produce. I want to the lvl 10's I make with 10k ham and 200 dmg to be legal and left alone by the devs also. But again, that choice isn't mine. Without trying ti sound too cynical what you or I want or think is fair or should be ok SIMPLY DOESN'T MATTER. We are not writing the programs or makign the desicions. If over-powered lvl 10's that people are making and selling now cause the devs to over-compensate by reducing lvl 10 to say 1-2k of ham with 50 dmg we will all be sorry (and screwed).

Play with HONOR

SomeUser

Sun May 09, 2004 10:13 pm

#16

SomeUser wrote:

I should add, for the longest time I boycotted making these as I always felt it was an **edit** thing to do... make non-ch toons creatures that are basically level 20+ in stats...

The 60% kinetic 10K HAM pets are wrong.

It has already been stated that the 4k HAM pets with 20% kinetic was pushing it... I wish I still had that link Looks like no one here reading this has it either...

Anyhow, it is a FACT that I can make a CL10 pet with 3k/3k/2k HAM and have it become invalid while I can make a CL10 pet with 60% kinetic and 10k HAM without a problem.

Now anyone who cant plainly see this is a case of sloppy coding is blind. This is NOT BE pushing the limits of nature through good BEing.

I posted the recipe to make these because I'm sick and tired of certain immature runts of a BE making them thinking they are the UbEr LeEt DuDeS. This has nothing to do with pushing the limits through skill. It has to do with finding a WEAKNESS in the code and capitalizing on it.

If SOE truly intended for these kind of pets to be made I should never have to worry about a much lesser pet (across the board) being invalid.

To think that just because SOE has "addressed" this issue twice is proof that things are working as intended is just plain ignorant.

SOE hasnt fixed the problems because BE isnt on their radar folks. SOE is pushing their Jedi revamp and Space X-pac at light speed (also working on the smuggler re-vamp). In fact, it was posted somewhere here on these forums that the DEV in charge of BE is off doing something else.

Here is the bottom line:

If SOE intends CL10 pets to be able to be BEed to CL20 like, then CL20 should be BEable to CL40, CL40 to CL80, and CL 70 to CL140.

So I should be able to push things so that the CL70 pets I make will be double that of what a Mutant Rancor is in the wild... Double the resists, to-hit, HAMs, and damage

That isnt going to happen though is it? We all know someone having a pet that is 2x as strong as a mutant rancor is WRONG (atleast I hope we all know that). But somehow it becomes "right" when it is CL10.

Think about that whenmaking "arguments" justifying these CL10 uber pets!!!

If it isnt balanced at CL70 it isnt balanced at CL10.

The only people who should have access to the CL20 type pets are CH. You should have to invest skill points to have that kind of pet.

However, I have come to the conclusion that nothing I can say, or others who have a similar view, is going to make a damn bit of difference to the BE who make these kind of pets on a regular bases.

These BE have no respect for the game, only their fake bank accounts. They would make the CL10 pets with AR1 20k hams and 60% kinetic and Energy with 100% in everything else **if** only they could. They would do so without blinking an eyewith NOregard to how it might effect the game or what consequences it brings to fellow BEs.

Well here (few posts above) is the recipe. There is no more UbErness in making these. The CL10 UbEr pets are no more exclusivethen the older CL10 4k/3k/2k HAM Dantooine version.

Message Edited by SomeUser on 05-10-2004 12:16 AM

Vezek

JayceMilam

Sun May 09, 2004 10:55 pm

#17

SomeUser wrote:

Anyhow, it is a FACT that I can make a CL10 pet with 3k/3k/2k HAM and have it become invalid while I can make a CL10 pet with 60% kinetic and 10k HAM without a problem.

Message Edited by SomeUser on 05-10-2004 12:16 AM

I couldn't agree with you more Voke. I recently had an order for a kahmurra which shoul shave been simple and straight-forward. I made the customer the order on the spot as I don't tend to carry Kahmurra's around. The ham came out about 3700/2900/2300, typical kinetic and blast res of 14% and 40 dmg, no problem right? Wrong. I sell it to the guy and he gets an invalid pet message. I guess he wasn't familar with the problem so he didn't say anything to me and adjusted the stats. The result? 750/750/750 <ugh> Obviously I hadto make him another pet. Not the biggest deal in the world but a big pain. We all know the pet check is broken so thinking that a 10k 60kr lvl 10 is ok is just ridiculous. By the way the second kahmurra had ham so close to being identical to the first I couldn't tell the difference without having the exact stats on the first one and it was valid. Go figure.

Play with HONOR

droid327

Sun May 09, 2004 11:31 pm

#18

Actually, with the coding system the way it apparently is, you could make CL70 pets as correspondingly uber as you can make CL10 pets, if you could get DNA that powerful. The fact that our sampling caps at CL75 is the real ceiling on upper-echelon pet stats. If you could get a bunch ofancient krayt DNA you could probly gen down at 100kHAM60KR AR2 CL70 rancor...

Jekk Badlander
Lowca
Commando - Rebel Pilot
------------------------------------------------
Factor

SomeUser

Mon May 10, 2004 4:13 am

#19

droid327 wrote:

...Actually, with the coding system the way it apparently is, you could make CL70 pets as correspondingly uber as you can make CL10 pets...The fact that our sampling caps at CL75...

How about this:

SOE put a CL75 cap on BE pets so that the coding system that allows us to make UbEr CL10 pets couldnt be used to make UbEr CL70 pets?

IMHO, the way we should judge what a CL10 pet should be would be to determine the proportional increase in power we can make our CL70 pets.

All we need is SOE's algorithm that it uses to determine "wild" CL levels and apply that to the best BE CL70.

Whatever that increase is would be the approximant CL increase we should get with our CL10s.

I have a feeling if we did that, however, we would find most of the pets we make to be overpowered.

Bottom line:

SOE should have first did the CH re-balance along with the combat re-balance and **then** they should have dedicated a few months (at the very least) to work out a solid BE crafting system.

Instead, SOE does the bare minimum it has to in order to get something operational so that they can move on to the next "feature", "re-vamp", "content" in a bid to attract as many new subscribers as they can without regard for the integrity of the game.

Vezek

SomeUser

Mon May 10, 2004 4:24 am

#20

AhhhDulee bumped Talthazar's post on this very subject

Talthazar wrote:

I gave the following examples:

1) H4142 A3011 M2024 14 kinetic/blast vuln to the rest 2.16 spd .24 to hit 70-75 damage Dizzy/no ranged

2) Level 10 Gurrcat 7373 Health 4322 Action 3478 Mind 58% Kinetic 4% Heat and Acid 1% Cold Vul to rest 30-40 Dmg Blinding strike and Strong Disease as specials.

I got the impression [by Keldarin]that both were above the intended limits, though not by how much.

Clickie Clickie!

Message Edited by SomeUser on 05-10-2004 06:31 AM

Vezek

Templar1865

Mon May 10, 2004 5:29 am

#21

"I got the impression [by Keldarin]that both were above the intended limits, though not by how much."

This is the precisely the problem. It's impressions versus hard numbers. That's all we've been given. If, by making a bunch of "uber" CL10s it pushes SOE's hand to fix the code, then what's wrong with that? The change they would make would be either a) actually fix the algorithm so that it works consistently, b) change the creature stats that the samples come from, or c) do something radical, a wild card, that fundamentally changes the system. It sounds like option C is what most people are afraid of. But guess what? One of those options is going to happen ANYWAY the next time Kel gets some cycles to spend on BE. As some of you have very clearly pointed out, we have no control over them and they are going to do what they want coding-wise whether we like it or not, and, frankly, regardless of what we suggest.

Yes, the formula for creating a 10k health CL10 creature is very simple and easily duplicated. That's one of my biggest reasons for considering it "valid." It doesn't take six generations of cloning, or camping a spawn for three days, or hanging out at a server border to exploit some ghost in the machine. FWIW, I also think that part of the issue is the way resistances are factored into CL. Getting a 60% kinetic resistance is easy-peasy (and maintain a low CL), but getting 50%+ energy resistance isn't. Anyone else notice this?

ArthurDentOnBria

Mon May 10, 2004 10:58 am

#22

The interesting thing about this thead, and similar ones, is trying to figure out what exactly is it about the CL calculation that makes such monstrosities considered CL 10. I'm going to try out the "double harvester" ideaif for no other reason than to see what the stats on the template are and see how this could possibly translate into CL 10. Right now I'm beginning to think more and more that the CL calculation is based on "secondary" stats (fortitude, endurance, cleverness, fierceness) rather than the "primary" ones (hardiness, dexterity, intelligence, power).

But on top of this, we seem to be getting a tremendous "CL credit" from the energy vulnerability. Perhaps that "energy vulnerability CL credit" is stacking and not capped negatively (i.e. you get a bigger CL credit by having 2 dnas with energy vulnerability than from one even if the result is a vulnerability in both cases?).

ArthurDent - former Bio Engineer, Tailor, and Droid Engineer
Account cancelled 7/8/05 due to game breaking bugs in these professions that have been neglected for FAR too long. Last day July 27 2005
custom tailoring and droid orders welcome. "making Evil products since July 2003"
Achiever: 80%, Explorer: 60%, Socializer: 46%, Killa 13%

Myonax

Mon May 10, 2004 1:58 pm

#23

Has anyone noticed the only real variance is a level 60 and level 40 pet is damage? I seem to cap out around 12000 HAMs on most of my CL40s and CL60s.I have a few exception pets in 14k HAM region which where DNA from mutants that had exceptionally high substats. A little off the focus of this thread but something I find interesting.

c00kie

Mon May 10, 2004 1:59 pm

#24

I agree with Voke... honestly... While I agree that it is lame that we can make these pets, I think its time to stop taking the high road. I don't care if our developer is working on the jedi revamp, or the SE. BE has been broken for a while... and unfortunatly 96% of SOE has no clue how it works. The few that do, are being pressured by SOE to fix something they broke earlier that means more in $$ to SOE than BE. So hell with it... let them continue to adjust pet checks, I could care less... Maybe they will make it so all are pets are how they should be at cl10, if that happens its no different than not making these pets, except someone at SOE we actually pay attention to a very broken system.

The FF was a joke, the answers to our questions are even more of a joke. I am sick of being ignored, and hell I am sick of making 0 on pet sales b/c MCH don't exist anymore, and people won't buy the regualr cl10 with the uber ones on the market

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GFoyle

Mon May 10, 2004 6:49 pm

#25

I have a bad feeling about this..................

As peope have said repeatedly: An algorithm to determine pet CL ought to be easy enough to put together - but the devs have screwed it up twice and we still have no validity checks on pet creation.

Someoneabove asked how wild creature CL's are calculated.

The obvious answer, given all we have experienced, is that there is no algorithm for determining creature level.

Wild creatures are assigned levels based on empirical evidence as people fight them and are "hardwired" in (i.e."rebalanced" if they are too tough/weak/inconevient - Grauls and GSP's)- the creature stats are irrelavent. GSP's are CL25, Rancors are CL50, etc, etc.

The evidence for this was the change to GSP level with publish 6 - CL went from 23 to 25, but thier stats didn't change. Wild creature levels basically come off a lookup table.

I'm now pretty certain in my own mind that BE'd pets work off much the same principle - CL is determined based on source creature level, which in itself is wired in without regard to the stats of the creatures it came from. Net result: BE'd pet CL is independant of the creature's actual stats (and is likely to be adjusted downwards rather than upwards with each generation).

The evidence for this is the "uber" critters themselves. If CL were in any way dependant on final creature stats then there is no way these creatures could exist in the first place. (The question also arises if CL were directly related to stats -howwould this work with the minimum CL skins like Kimos?)

The "validity checks", I'm pertty certain, are nothing more than a set of checks along the lines of "if HAM > x for CL y then pet is invalid". The thing is - the checks ARE based on the creature's underlying stats, as well as the "visible" ones, and these change as the critter grows, but not in a linear manner.

(Incidentally - creatures definitely do have underlying stats that can't be seen on the datapad, deedor with examine - a simple example are the 'vicious' pet skins that can't be tamed by non-CH's. I've also noticed differing behaviour between "litter mates" out at the same time - one (wild) GSP I owned always lagged behind the others and was always first to break off from a fight. This was consistant across several playing sessions).

This would explain quite a bit. No straightforward algorithm is possible because the checks are made based on stats that change over time in a non-linear manner (as the creature grows). This would also explain why pets are flagged invalid as they grow rather than when made or first tamed (some of the underlying stats are generated on taming/training - an interesting thought is that maybe some of the underlying stats are determined by creature "training" as it grows. The original rulebook certainly implied this was thecase).

I suspect a major reason the "rules", such as they are, have never been released - they'd generate more questions than they'd answer: "A pet that has a 'bounciness' rating more than 5 times it's CL is invalid" is pretty meaningless to us plebs..............

Unfortunately the whole mess will only be resolved when someone with degree-level mathematical competance sits down and writes an algorithm to relate CL to creature stats directly. (By "degree-level mathematical competance" I mean pure maths, physics or the like, NOT computer science - ironicallyrelatively little mathematical knowledge is required to program a computer even at the most complex level - it's mainly binary number and matrix manipulation rather than calculus and number theory, whichare what is required here.)

GivenSOE's track record (see some of the'misconceptions' that came out of the critical failure debate) I'm not optimistic aboutsuch an algorithm appearing soon

Gully Foyle
All SOE game accounts cancelled - and this time I'm gone for good

Nemthang

Tue May 11, 2004 2:12 pm

#26

Jayce,

You have a valid argument except for one small detail. The BE community has repeatedly asked the developers for guidelines for valid, CL10 pets that represent "intended" stats for the CL. They have not provided this guidance that would alllow us to police ourselves -- despite being asked and given many opportunities to respond.

Instead, people who have tried to interpret the developers' intentions (and some who, I might add, strongly critcized those of us who interpreted the actual code as the developers' intentions - code that was fixed twice as previously mentioned) found their 4k/3k/2k Tal-N pets rendered invalid while the CL10 10k HAM 60% pets remained.

You can drive yourself crazy trying to hit an impossible standard only to have your pets adjustedif you like.But, in my opinion, while yourapproach is well intended (following the developers intentions), it has thusfar proved very frustrating and impractical.

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Thread: 60KR CL10 pets