Bio Engineer Archive
Thread: What is this pervasive You SHOULD have known?
To all you "should have known better people..
I'd agree with you if you had said something like..
Devs are all (look at my unshaven, messy haired uber warrior, "LOOK AT MY BIG GUN" mindset people) who have a history of nerfing anything to do with pets.
Did they take the uber guns, made from dragon tissue, away from those who had them? NO.
Worse there is still no place to go and read what not to do when making clones. Or what is to be done with the 40 odd clones on vendors that some of us made and posted for sale. Are they valid or invalid? there is no place that explains what makes a clone invalid. What's to say pets we make today, saysome "killer bunny" with strong poison, won't bemade invalid next week?
Face itBE's will end up making stims and clothing adds for a living (in game). That way no one will ever make anything that might accidentally knock down one of the "LOOK AT MY BIG GUN TYPES". That idealogy has to beleftover from some prepubescent"size matters" fantasy.
A counter argument to that could be "They nerfed "wild" tamed pets so BE made pets would be viable".
Personally, I think a 10 level drop from "wild" would be a good rule for BE pets. Non-CH could have a CL 9 Dewback pet, but they'd need a BE to make it. The BE would sample from a "wild" Dewback (CL 19) and know the BEST he could do in getting the CL down would be CL 9.
And as an MCH,my lizard would kicktheirsuper10 Kaadu's butt 
mmaughme wrote:
How could you possibly look at a CL 1 pet with 10K HAM and think it was permitted? Further, why do you continue calling this a nerf? From the moment I first heard of these uber non-CH pets, I knew it was a bug. When people asked me "how much for a hell durni," I told them I wouldn't make one as they were bugged. I thought it was quite clear, as it's unreasonable to have a non-CH pet that's as powerful as something only an MCH can use.
The reason people are holding BEs responsible is because they can't hold Sony responsible. For some reason we are expected to have Customer Service for our customers in game when Sony doesn't have adequate QA or CS and THEY ARE GETTING PAID FOR IT? Complain to the CSRs about your invalid pet, I DID NOT EXPLOIT, I am the victim of a completely undocumented system that was not adequately troubleshot by Sony's QA department.
Shame on Sony. How much longer do you think people are going to put up with this? I'm sure you are watching your metrics and can financially justify your actions, but the repercussions may be longer term than you realize. I think the 6-month love affair is over and I'm watching many, many established players wind down their involvement with the game and will probably let their accounts lapse in the near future.
ByygPapa wrote:i agree that documentation on the clone process sucked...
BUT
anybody who's been playing this game long enough to even HAVE a BE template "should have known" that a cl 10 9k ham pet wasnt gonna fly...
NO WAY can this be called an exploit, since there was never a "rule" against it, but PLEASE dont try to feed me some crap about how you think such a critter was gonna make it past the devs, or (even funnier) how you think theres nothing wrong with it
again...I disagree. Why couldn't a cl 10 pet with 9k HAM "fly" as you put it? Where was it documented that it couldn't? Make it past the devs? THE DEVS CREATED THE SYSTEM THAT ALLOWS IT. I am not talking about kam dna or piket dna either. You could (and I did) get the same results by doing 3rd & 4th generation clones.
Look at the lastest patch notes where they lowered non CH pets from level 15 to 10 because they felt the level 15 pets were over powered. That is your documentation. I don't necessarly aggree with that, but it was clearly stated and definded what someone without any CH skills could and could not control. If it was better than a C. Gurreck or a Rock Bettle, it was already stated those were over powered. There is no confusion there. If you made an animal that was CL10 and was superior to the old CL15 that were nerfed because they were too powerful, then the system was clearly bugged. The "I didn't know" defense just makes people sound stupid and clueless, not a victim of an undocumented system that was clearly definded for non CH pets.
The only confusion comes in the CL11-70 range and what is a suitable power/level ratio. That has no documentation or even relievent post. The system was bugged for CL10s and is bugged all the way up to CL70. What isn't known is what should a good/average/poor CL15/25/35/45/55/65 pet look like and what would be out of wack for those levels. That is what we don't know but should.
ByygPapa wrote:i agree that documentation on the clone process sucked...
BUT
anybody who's been playing this game long enough to even HAVE a BE template "should have known" that a cl 10 9k ham pet wasnt gonna fly...
NO WAY can this be called an exploit, since there was never a "rule" against it, but PLEASE dont try to feed me some crap about how you think such a critter was gonna make it past the devs, or (even funnier) how you think theres nothing wrong with it
Well it DID make it past the DEVs (How can we say that. The DEVs made it) It did make it past internal QA, It did make it past the TC (And I read one post somewhere that it raised eyebrows on TC and comments were made) And it did go live. So it seems that it passed all the check and balances. Oh wait. There may not have been many. Hmmmm. And the DEVs were said to have stated that the BE was going to get the ability to make better than wild pets.
Well that is what the BE's did.
-Indene-
It isn't that we the poor consumers "should have known." Rather it's the developers who should have known. The new BE system successfully passed through the developers' extensive quality control testing and was published. They know the code, they know the results of all the testing on test center, they have all sorts of statistics (just look at their "astromech stats"). Our knowledge pales in comparison to theirs.
By way of analogy, consider what would happen if a biotech company produces a new drug that cures bad breath. It goes through extensive lab testing, live trials, peer review, etc. and is deemed safe and effective. It goes to market, the public buys it. And lo and behold, an unintended side effect. It turns your skin green if applied topically instead of ingested. Back to the drawing board. The unsuspecting, trusting public, has no legal recourse. It was our fault, after all, for using the product in a manner not tested by the manufacturer. This is what would happen if Sony ruled the world.
Meplorium wrote:Look at the lastest patch notes where they lowered non CH pets from level 15 to 10 because they felt the level 15 pets were over powered. That is your documentation. I don't necessarly aggree with that, but it was clearly stated and definded what someone without any CH skills could and could not control. If it was better than a C. Gurreck or a Rock Bettle, it was already stated those were over powered. There is no confusion there. If you made an animal that was CL10 and was superior to the old CL15 that were nerfed because they were too powerful, then the system was clearly bugged. The "I didn't know" defense just makes people sound stupid and clueless, not a victim of an undocumented system that was clearly definded for non CH pets.
The only confusion comes in the CL11-70 range and what is a suitable power/level ratio. That has no documentation or even relievent post. The system was bugged for CL10s and is bugged all the way up to CL70. What isn't known is what should a good/average/poor CL15/25/35/45/55/65 pet look like and what would be out of wack for those levels. That is what we don't know but should.
Let me quote the recent patch notes:
Non-creature handlers cannot call pets of a higher level than 10, down from 15.
Nothing about a rock beetle, C. Gurreck, why they made the change or anything you attribute to the notes. I will grant you they lowered it for a reason, and somewhere in the greater than 20 page post where TH commented on the creature "re-balance" he might have commented that the development team thought that they were too powerful. There is nothing in the patch notes though. Not your point, I realize, but you did imply that I was stupid and clueless, so I felt the need to point that out.
More importantly, I want to make clear that if the system is not working as it was intended, and the intentions have not been documented, then I have no way of knowing that they are going to fix it.
For example, say I am a weaponsmith, and I make Krayt weapons that I feel are overpowered. (not really, but follow me here). I get dozens of requests for them, because they are the best weapons on the server. I fill the requests, and make a bunch of cash. Now enter the nerfbat: Now nobody can use my weapons, everyone is calling me an exploiter, and demanding a refund.
Do you see my point? The point is not the >CL10 creatures. It is the fact that I did nothing but utilize the system that was put in front of me. There is no clear definition (still) on what is a valid, and invalid pet. You say >CL10 creatures with 9k of HAM is obviously invalid. FINE. GROOVY. OK. So where is the LINE? 2k? 1k? 500? What?
With a DOCUMENTED PROCESS, we would not need to have this discussion.
The devs by word and deed (ie nerfs/patches) have consistently said they do not want non-ch to havepets that will do the fighting/tanking for them. They have said it many times, have introduced fixes, have nerfed everybody and made their intentions clear on this issue. Non-CHers were supposed to have PETS not fighting tanks. And now you expect people to believe that you were somehow totaly ignorant of this fact? You been hiding under a rock?
The devs by word and deed (nerfs/patches) have consistently cut back on the power CHers wield by reducing their ability to control the more powerful pets, but making the progression harder, by removing the more powerful wild critters from the 'tamable' list, by outright nerfs etc Again somehow you missed all this huh?
Everything they have done since release has demonstrated what they consider "normal" or "acceptable" ... and it isnt uber pets for CH or non-CH. These posts claiming ignorance are almost all nonsense, nothing but ways to seek a rationale for breaking (ok maybe more like bending) the intended game mechanics.
"How were we supposed to know?" ... CL10 pets that were equal in power to what is "normal" for a CL35 should have been a clue, the history of the nerf/changes made to date to pets/CH should have been a clue, the many posts by BE and CH saying there was something wrong should have been a clue, the fact that people were now paying millions for CL pets that used to sell for around 10k should have been a clue.
Listen I totaly agree that there was and still is a lack of clear guidlines for you guys, I agree that it wasnt the BE class' fault you guys didnt break the mechanics, the devs are 100% at fault here in every way. But stop pleading ignorance, I refuse to believe any of you are that dumb ... a mentaly impared mouse droid would have known 
Ah dont sweat it anyway guys, it was fun while it lasted. Nobody got banned over it, the devs screwed up and will fix it. Such is life in SWG.
Stinger
Myros wrote:
The devs by word and deed (ie nerfs/patches) have consistently said they do not want non-ch to havepets that will do the fighting/tanking for them. They have said it many times, have introduced fixes, have nerfed everybody and made their intentions clear on this issue. Non-CHers were supposed to have PETS not fighting tanks. And now you expect people to believe that you were somehow totaly ignorant of this fact? You been hiding under a rock?
Not been under a rock - but I've never been a CH - at ALL, nor until very very recently, i.e, the patch where I had to gone very far beyond the 400 meters or so from my store to town and back again.
I have no clue what 'normal' animals in the wild are - what babies there are or anything else - especially after the revamp.
I'm a BE - I'm NOT a CH - I'm NOT a Ranger - I'm a BE and a tailor, which until very recently had never even seen a wild rancor, much less close enough to sample one- nor been on any of the advanced planets. I happen to LIKE that lifestyle, but you do whatcha gotta do. Or am I supposed to read every forum - besides all the ones that deal with my own professions? Here's a clue - even with patch notes - if it don't concern me - even if I pick up on them - I probably don't understand them.
Folks upset with BEs need to turn around and turn there attention directly where it belongs - in the laps of the folks that threw this system out right before a 2 week vacation - and that's probably not eventhe devs - it's probably the suits that have never even played the game and wanted to make sure they had promotional propaganda in time for the Christmas rush.
Its called common sense, I think anyone would have realized they would put a limit on this.
Heck the developer team thinks a player with 1000 Health and only Light Armor and 40%resistances is too strong even if they are a Master in mutiple Fighting Proffessions.
Yeah even though no-one will ever be as strong as a dark jedi master...yes and that nice little chart they put up didnt show if people defeated the targets only that they tried to solo it.
uh huh...yeah a Dark Jedi Master with its 80,000 HAMs and 100% resistances to all things, and Heavy Armor, and a Nice Healing Ability and a Nice Saber throw ability and the ability to pull out a weapon that does 5000 damage in one hit.....yeah....uh huh
And thats a single target, I am not even going to mention the ones that are in big groups.
So anywise, thats why I have the "you should have known" attitude" becasue it was too good to last and not get complaints.
Sorry Wire, your right. Sweeping generalizations are never very good
Stinger
surreal2000 wrote:
Let me quote the recent patch notes:
Non-creature handlers cannot call pets of a higher level than 10, down from 15.
Nothing about a rock beetle, C. Gurreck, why they made the change or anything you attribute to the notes. I will grant you they lowered it for a reason, and somewhere in the greater than 20 page post where TH commented on the creature "re-balance" he might have commented that the development team thought that they were too powerful. There is nothing in the patch notes though. Not your point, I realize, but you did imply that I was stupid and clueless, so I felt the need to point that out.
More importantly, I want to make clear that if the system is not working as it was intended, and the intentions have not been documented, then I have no way of knowing that they are going to fix it.
For example, say I am a weaponsmith, and I make Krayt weapons that I feel are overpowered. (not really, but follow me here). I get dozens of requests for them, because they are the best weapons on the server. I fill the requests, and make a bunch of cash. Now enter the nerfbat: Now nobody can use my weapons, everyone is calling me an exploiter, and demanding a refund.
Do you see my point? The point is not the >CL10 creatures. It is the fact that I did nothing but utilize the system that was put in front of me. There is no clear definition (still) on what is a valid, and invalid pet. You say >CL10 creatures with 9k of HAM is obviously invalid. FINE. GROOVY. OK. So where is the LINE? 2k? 1k? 500? What?
With a DOCUMENTED PROCESS, we would not need to have this discussion.
The patch notes clearly state the nerf, the reason behind the nerf was clearly stated on the boards in an offical manner, as it were. I have no desire or interest in pointing it out, that is what the Dev track and search features are for. I generally have no difficultly using those features.
You seemed to be quite capable of finding the creature recipes yet somehow missed an important discussion and announcement to the CH profession that you at least sell items too if not are part of. You seem think people are stupid and are buying that no one could have known about non CH pets when it was already clearly stated non CH were to not have good pets for combat. It is possible you missed it and were uninformed and completely ignorant of the stituation. If you are ignorant, then you can honestly make your statements. However please correctyour ignoranceproblem and get yourself informed about your profession and that of your customers profession, CH. If you are informed like most people on this forum, then you should clearly understand where this pervasive "You SHOULD have known" additude comes from, because you should have known.
As to what is allowable for non CH, wild seems to be 1k HAM, however we should be able to do better than wild but not better than what was deemed too powerful, the C. Gurrack at 3k HAM. I think less than 20% resists in 2 or 3 areas and vulns in the rest and 2k HAM is suitable for a non CH pet. That is still not good enough to fight with for more than one or twomobs and is not over powered and unfair to the CHs. That would seem inline in my opinion, for what it is worth. An offical statement is however needed to completely clarify the issue, at it is muddy at this point.
You are very correct that the documentation sucks and having to dig for information isn't right. There should be a guide at the very least sticked on this board or better yet good help files in the in game holocron. However making a statement that no information is out about non CH pets and an 8k HAMCL10 is within thelimites of the gameis clearly a false or ignorant statement.