CUEmu - Thread Posts

Talthazar

Thu Jan 22, 2004 2:12 pm

I have to agree. I could see how people might convince themselves it was "intended" before

to strengthen BE's. Now however, after the invalid pet fix, and the fixes for non-ch pets, it is quite clear that these are not intended. Anyone continuing to make these does so at their own risk. SOE has a policy of banning exploiters and judging by the recent slicing bans and credit duping bas, isn't afraid to enforce it.

Brutir Llecc'Honep
Master Bio-engineer - Proprietor - Honep Industries - Kauri
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Galacium

Thu Jan 22, 2004 2:29 pm

#2

I think it kind of depends on how the exploit is performed. If there is a clear "trick" to achieving some advantage that can not be done without the trick then I'm not sure you can realy hold people responsible for it. Especialy if the "trick" is something you wouldn't normaly do.

I'm not sure how the super pets are currently made, so I can't realy say. If you have to jump throug specific hoops to do it then its an exploit and easy to avoid. If they are the result of fluke experementation on an otherwise normal pet, or are somehow random, then I'm not sure you can realy fault people for them.

I realy think that if SOE wants to ban people for exploiting they should make it clear that a perticular action is an exploit first. Its not like this game is life and death, its a medium of entertainment and while exploits can ruin the experience for others, most of them dont. Seems rather harsh to ban folks for taking advantage of things that are "uncertain".

In the case of the BE "super pets" I think an appropriate action is to nerf them in whatever way SOE comes up with. Banning people for making or using them is rather unwarented. It's not like they are realy that powerfull or unbalancing beyond giving low level characters a mid level piece of equipment. (no commando or tka master is going to get much milage from a lc10 pet uber or otherwise)

I've got some likely bugged pets, and I use them because SOE has not told me I shouldn't. If they posted "Dont use any pet with a cl to ham ratio of X/X" I'd likely follow that directive, but since they havn't I use the pets I've got. If they decide they are broken andget nerfedI won't cry foul, changing the rules is normal for MMPORGs.

I understand people want their community/profession to be kosher, but some bugs are truly disruptive exploits and otheres are just bugs. I'd save the crusades for the things that realy make a difference. I realize this wasn't a crusading post but I've seen others that are.

Anyway I just like debating so feel free to ignore me.

All the best,

Galacium

Starship Enterprises - Insurgo Emporium - Waypoint -6677 -3785 - Insurgo, Naboo, Kettemoor

Wire3k

Thu Jan 22, 2004 3:07 pm

#3

I'm telling customers I'm simply not making pets till we know the fix - really is - fixed.

Since we STILL don't know 'normal' ranges I still don't know if something I make will be valid - or not.

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ArthurDentOnBria

Thu Jan 22, 2004 3:59 pm

#4

This is really a pretty fine line we're walking here. As a BE, the entire point is to try to, if you will, exploit the system. I don't mean exploit in the sense of cheating, but in the sense of understanding it and taking advantage of it to make the very best pets you can. But if you go to far, you're a cheater and risk banning. If you don't go far enough you're a horrible BE that has a reputation for making worthless, incompetent pets.

In the wild, a CL 10 pet has around 1k of HAM, no resists to speak of, and does about 100 damage. If we tradeoff the damage and give it 3x the HAM, we get a pet that will serve a player far above it's CL. Is this then an exploit? Does it allow players to suddenly "unlock part of the game beyond their skill level?". Actually, it probably does. So is this cheating, and a bannable offense to make such a pet? Hmm, tough call. But of course if that is cheating, I want out of BE.

ArthurDent - former Bio Engineer, Tailor, and Droid Engineer
Account cancelled 7/8/05 due to game breaking bugs in these professions that have been neglected for FAR too long. Last day July 27 2005
custom tailoring and droid orders welcome. "making Evil products since July 2003"
Achiever: 80%, Explorer: 60%, Socializer: 46%, Killa 13%

Fodder650

Thu Jan 22, 2004 4:08 pm

#5

I know this has been beat into the ground. But it would help to have some guidelines. I do agree our job is to make the best pet we can make. But if you sit there and make a 5k CL10 these days you know that its wrong.

Canon Fodder - The former Ranger/CH now unplayed Smuggler
Down to one account and thats only because its a station pass
Currently a Droid Commander in City of Villians (really)

mmaughme

Thu Jan 22, 2004 4:19 pm

#6

Talthazar wrote:
I have to agree. I could see how people might convince themselves it was "intended" before

to strengthen BE's. Now however, after the invalid pet fix, and the fixes for non-ch pets, it is quite clear that these are not intended. Anyone continuing to make these does so at their own risk. SOE has a policy of banning exploiters and judging by the recent slicing bans and credit duping bas, isn't afraid to enforce it.

Right. Kettemoor has an unscrupulous BE, whose name I won't mention. Two days after the temporary fix was reversed, she was back in Coronet shouting "Uber non-CH pets un-nerfed, uber razor cat for sale, 1.5 mil!" A number of people took issue with her trying to cheat people with pets they won't be able to use after the patch. The BE in question said they weren't going to be patched.

Two days ago, CSR-ChrisG showed up in Coronet and said these clones are legal.

Huh?

He then followed this up by saying that they'll be patched.

Huh?

The two comments strike me as being at odds, unless SOE's taking the stance that they're okay as long as they're in game, and that the patch will be the means through which scruples will be enforced.

Puckman187

Thu Jan 22, 2004 4:26 pm

#7

Well, I'm new at BE, and i can't make very good pets yet, and since i've only been in the profession about a week or so, how am i supposed to know whats right or wrong??? I mean if i throw a bunch of stuff into a creature and make it "uber" how am i cheating? Granted i'm not stupid and know what i'm supposed to put in to make things better, and experiment on it and etc..but if i happen to make something good and be like oh wow look what i made with no intent on "cheating" the system...how exactly am i cheating???

This goes beyond just BE...SOE seems to have a fine line of whats allowed and whats exploiting...and it seems to vary with each CSR...just my 2 credits...

Harov Cedill

ArthurDentOnBria

Thu Jan 22, 2004 4:46 pm

#8

Puckman187 wrote:

Well, I'm new at BE, and i can't make very good pets yet, and since i've only been in the profession about a week or so, how am i supposed to know whats right or wrong???

Allow me to summarize:

Non-CH pet: 1k HAM - your pet sucks, you should hold your head in shame

2k-3k HAM, your pet is great, you are a wonderful BE

>3k HAM you are a cheater and should be banned immediately.

Any questions?

ArthurDent - former Bio Engineer, Tailor, and Droid Engineer
Account cancelled 7/8/05 due to game breaking bugs in these professions that have been neglected for FAR too long. Last day July 27 2005
custom tailoring and droid orders welcome. "making Evil products since July 2003"
Achiever: 80%, Explorer: 60%, Socializer: 46%, Killa 13%

Bonedome

Thu Jan 22, 2004 5:46 pm

#9

Current (so-called "nerfed") probots have medium armor, 40% resists and 800+ hams.

This means that it takes over 5000 points to one pool to bring it down.

Which is pretty much the same as a 4K ham critter with 20% resists, as far as tanking goes.

Please explain how these pets are so "broken"? Exactly what ham makes it broken (and please, no "I know it when I see it" type-answers)? How are we supposed to know? There's a huge difference between exploiting a hole/bug, and using the system provided, and people should be cautious about equating the two.

To avoid the whole issue, I'm not currently making or selling non-CH pets, but I shouldn't have to even make that decision. The devs need to either fix or clarify the situation. But I wouldn't hold my breath for either option.

-Lens Larque/Master Bio-Engineer/Eclipse

En-Sabah-Nur

Thu Jan 22, 2004 6:09 pm

#10

I admit that I did make a Dewback with 6k health after the patch. The difference was that it had 2000 Action and 1000 mind. So it still totaled to 3k all around. It also had 20 kinetic if IIRC. But I've not been able to reproduce such a thing.

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Maxx6

Thu Jan 22, 2004 9:24 pm

#11

It is hard to really understand where exploiting starts and legitimate pets end. I think its safe to say that a non ch pet with full 6k or 7k hams is exploiting. However I have been able to make level 9 and 10 pets with average 2.5k hams and 40% kinetic resists. These pets were carfully crafted through resampling and using certain DNA. They were specifically designed to minimize there attack power while raising their hams. I do think however they are borderline as they are similar to the former rock beetles and mountain krevols. I think we definitly need some clarification on this issue.

KillerCRS

Thu Jan 22, 2004 9:38 pm

#12

ArthurDentOnBria wrote:

Puckman187 wrote:

Well, I'm new at BE, and i can't make very good pets yet, and since i've only been in the profession about a week or so, how am i supposed to know whats right or wrong???

Allow me to summarize:

Non-CH pet: 1k HAM - your pet sucks, you should hold your head in shame

2k-3k HAM, your pet is great, you are a wonderful BE

>3k HAM you are a cheater and should be banned immediately.

Any questions?

Yeah I have a question, who made you or anyone heregod?

We've been given no such guidelines. The only vague reference was one by TH about pet over 6k HAM.

We've also been told that the "uber" pets have been un nerfed, and that they will NOT become unuseable ever, we were told they will be nerfed to whatever the legal limits are in the next big publish.

So selling them is fine IMO, as long as you tell the buyer it's only temporary and will be nerfed next patch day. Exactly as the devs hve told us.

They will still probably be the best non CH pets available even after they are nerfed, simly due to being right on the legal cap automatically.

Personally I doubt they can still be made, I suspect some BE's probably just stocked up on a whole pile of them before the fix.

KillerCRS

Thu Jan 22, 2004 9:43 pm

#13

So basically, if you want to know exactly what the CL10 legal limit is, you'll have one of these uber pets in your inventory or datapad, and we'll find out on patch day...

The devs surely aren't going to tell us.

I have one siting by my sofa in my house for exactly that reason, I want to see what the legal limit is when they nerf them so I don; have to spend a year of experimenting findng out how this non documented system works.

And the folks who were "ripped off" buying these pets will probably still have best non CH pet possible as a small consolation.

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Thread: Just because you can, doesn't mean you should