Artisan Archive
Thread: Alternative to Certs: Only Lot Owner can 'Operate Machinery'
I've been reading over the various debate threads, trying to understand the issues.
The core issue, at least from what I gathered, is that a *key* part of being an artisan is basic to advanced resource gathering (the entire survey branch). Doctors have asked for the survey/sample ability in the past, but the Developers stated that resource surveying/sampling is placed squarly in the hands of artisans.
Seems to me, alot of people have a problem with the massive lots trading that goes on. I could be wrong, but this seems to be a core issue. Someone without any artisan can still pull in massive amounts of good resources by having harvesters spread all over the galaxy (some have 50-200+ harvesters).
Now the current system allows this, but I do not think harvester certs will solve this issue. Instead, I'd propose a small alteration to harvesters: only the one who places the harvester can operate the machine (select resource, turn it on, withdraw resources).
I think this solves many of the core issues:
1) Artisans are valuable for finding the best concentrations of resources, they still retain that role.
2) Massive lot trading becomes much more difficult, the owners of the lots have to put in the work to earn the credits (before it's been like a 'free ride').
3) Primarily combat professions can still use their lots in cooperation with artisans to harvest resources.
Thoughts, comments? It's just an idea I've come up with after reading the various threads on the issue, and I thought I'd suggest it as an alternative.
Thank you for reading.
Edit: Changed 'Admin' to 'Operate Machine'. There are certain things only the lot owner can do (such as naming the structure), and included 'operate machinery' is my proposed solution. This change is in response to the post below it, about people being able to cover each other's maintanence. Good catch.
Message Edited by Cloudgatherer on 05-19-2004 03:16 PM
Cafa wrote:So what do you do when you don't log in for a week or two for vacation and your lots are down and you lose everything to a bug because your house and/or harvestor and/or factory starts eating money 4 to 10 times faster than normal?
The proposal covers operating the machinery and withdrawing the resources, not who can pay maintance on it.
There are certain things ONLY the lot owner can do (such as naming the structure). I'm simply proposing 'operate machinery' be included in that.
The 'old' admin list (if my suggestion were implemented) could still be used to allow others to pay maintanence and deposit power, but only the lot owner could operate the machine (select the resource or withdraw from the hopper).
And as a side note, I'm only suggesting this for harvesters, not houses or factories.
So I think this covers that concern, correct?
- A better way to control the attributes of powerups you're making, so you can get more than one useful schematic per hour of experimentation?
- A better way to control your harvesters remotely (change resource, pay maintenance, check status)?
- More useful (read: longer lasting) vehicle customization kits?
- Repair tools that work more than 5% of the time?
- Powerups for stuff other than weapons - like armor (better protection vs. X or lower encumberance), vehicles (better speed, better terrain negotiation), or structures (reduce maintenance, increase efficiency)?
My point is, let's stop trying to reduce the effectiveness and "fun" of something that isn't really a problem and instead try to focus on enhancing our profession to make the game more fun for not only ourselves, but for eveyrone else as well. For it is in the enhancement of everyone else's gaming experience that we will find things to sell.
And isn't that why we're artisans? We want to make & sell stuff, right?
The problem is not everyone plays every day or goes on vacation, familiy emergencies etc.
THis would not allow them to have a friend check on their harvesters.
If they have an emergency and their hopper fills what can be done.
Or like someone in our guild as an example. His internet connection had a severe outage lasting a week. He had ppl admined and we could maintain them at least and shut it off or change the resource when the resource it was on was over until he came back to pull his harvesters
HalasterTheBlack wrote:
And I try to keep several hundred - approaching 500 - crates of powerups on my powerup vendor. And I know a lot of weaponsmiths with a dozen pages of weapons listed. Are we next for the nerfing, just because we can load up a vendor?
TheArtisan with Survey IV has a HUGE advantage over the non-artisan. Why?
Well, any schlub can plant a harvester down in a lot trade and pick a resource. And those resources will sell (on Naritus) for 1-2 credits, MAYBE. And he's on a 65% spot, tops. Usually more like mid 30's.
But the Artisan can go out and survey for the best concentration of the most uber resource available. So he gets an 80% spot. And it's a great resource, so he's getting 3 credits (again, Naritus) per unit. His density is over twice that of the schlub and his resource is in demand. He's making something over 4x the money of the schlub in the same amount of time, just because he can survey and he keeps his miners "dynamic".
So still... what exactly is the problem here?
Cafa wrote:
Grow up
He can't. He never got the attention he needed as an infant and now he's taking it out on all of us with his one-starring rampage!
LOL!
cloudgatherer,
I like your idea that only the owner should be able to operate machinery. And I think that I or someone else suggested it in one of the other forums.
But I don't think that this is something that should be used instead of certifications. I think we still need harvester certifications. Just that this should be used IN ADDITION TO them to prevent people from grinding master artisan or survey 4 then cross-lotting. With your addition, that won't work. The person will still have to log on and check his own harvs. Gee...the person would effectively have to be a normal player on your server in order to use his lots there. Fancy that.
Another proposal is to globally restrict lots...not just 10 per server but an overall limit per account to further restrict cross-lotters. I have suggested 24 lots total but some have suggested a number as low as 10. (I've suggested 24 because I have a hard time seeing how anyone who plays this as a game would have any overall problem with that number.)
Just imagine how different the SWG landscape will look if there are harvester certs and only the people who own the lots can operate machinery. (I would actually not mind letting administrators empty the harvester but not let them select the resource. There are harvesters in dangerous areas that two-account people get the hoppers with their alts. I don't have a problem with that so long as the second toon has to be certified in the harvester to select the resource. And...if you can't select a resource on a harvester you're not certified for...well...you're probably going to re-deed it, aren't you. Especially since it won't be collecting anything once the resource it's currently on shifts.) 
To those who think small houses should cost 50k....I don't have a problem with that. That's 50 medium missions for a place to live. I'll take it. Upkeep on these small homes is very low. So no reason not to have one if you don't need the lot for a harvester.
There might also be some harvesters that anyone can use. The wind power generator comes to mind. I don't really have a problem with letting non-artisans and combat characters gather power through the use of windmills. There are plenty of folks without engineering backgrounds who build their own windmills or operate windmills that they buy in the RW. The device is simple to make requiring only engineering 3 in the artisan tree. And it would give folks something...power but not the resources...to sell. Also, the windmills are rather small and look kind of neat...so they aren't the eyesores that heavy mineral harvesters are. Heh.
Oh...and can anyone tell me why wind power generators don't automatically switch resources to whatever wind is available at the time? Because I haven't figured that one out. One kind of wind power isn't available, and your windmill doesn't collect the kind that is. Seems like they could be a device that doesn't require "select resource" since there can only be one resource for wind power at any given time. And the lack of select resource can be the reason why anyone can use it.
In all honesty, my proposal 'should be' easier to implement than certifications or a global lot limit. It does the most 'bang for the buck' IMO. IRL, I'm a software developer, and my proposed alternative is a very small amount of work for SoE. As a matter of fact, there's already an example in the game (naming a structure).
Now, if you think of it this way, one can always add more restrictions. I don't think certs are the right idea, but that could be done in addition to this. I don't think a lot cap is the right way to go either, but again, it could be done in addition to the other 2 options, and any one of them could be done on its own.
The idea of allowing hopper access is a good one too. That is an entirely seperate screen and could be isolated from the 'operate machinery' screen.
Thanks for the input.
HalasterTheBlack wrote:It's better than certs, but is it really better than the dozens of other enhancement ideas that have been floated for the profession overall?This whole thing operates under the assumption that there are somewow too many raw materials making their way into the world. I have yet to see a single LOGICAL argument that is based on REAL DATA that comes anywhere near supporting that theory, let alone proving it.
Well, the issue I was commenting on was harvester certifications. I'm only stating an alternative to requiring certs that addresses many of the concerns I read about in the other debate threads.
I don't have 'real data', and no one does aside from the devs (who I doubt will take the time to research this). But I have observed, a number of times, that resource vendors will have hundres of stacks of resources. I don't think anyone can deny the lot trader has a significant advantage over 'regular players' in terms of sheer quantity of resources, it really boils down to a question of lots.
Scoooter wrote:If they have an emergency and their hopper fills what can be done.
Or like someone in our guild as an example. His internet connection had a severe outage lasting a week. He had ppl admined and we could maintain them at least and shut it off or change the resource when the resource it was on was over until he came back to pull his harvesters
Cafa raised this issue at the top, and I edited my proposal based off of this insight. Said harvesters could still be maintained by other people, but others could not 'operate' the machine. If this was not the case, we are in the same situation as we are in now.
These are some of the key points I gathered from the debate threads. Artisans have an entire branch dedicated to resources (survey/sampling). They *should* be the ones to be the big players in the resource market. Instead, one can do a massive amount of lot trading, and simply go around using the 'change resource' option to check concentrations and harvest what one likes. What this translates to is a huge advantage for lot traders (namely lots/harvesters), and a big blow to Artisans (namely surveyors). In essence, one of the Artisans 'core' money making abilities (resources) is made significantly weaker in this fashion (since lot traders do not need *any* artisan).
And as a bonus, a little developer insight. A long time ago, I was a struggling doctor. The correspondent at the time had 'surveying' as one of the top 5 issues for Doctors. His reasoning is that doctors were a crafting profession, had medical forage, and should be allowed to survey for their own resources. The devs responded by saying resource surveying/sampling is strictly the realm of the artisan, who has an entire branch dedicated to it.
Thanks for the comments, much appreciated.