Artisan Archive
Thread: State of the economy = Charge more!!!!!
I dont know about anyone else butthe general discussion board frequently shows the same kinds of threads...
People complain there arent any/enough money sinks and that people have too much money
People calling for mission reward cash to be reduce
People calling for maint costs to be increased
I'll be honest these people probably have good reason for saying these things but they arent looking at the bigger picture
Yes the powergamer/leveller or faction point grinder (almost guaranteed to be a primary combat class) _will_ be running missions most of the time. These players have little expenditure beyond their equipment and transport fees and as a result they will end up with large sums of cash in the bank and nothing much to do with it.
The crafter on the other hand will sooner or later end up with at least a one harvester, possibly a generator, a house and a vendor. Most of their game time will be spent either crafting or visiting these structures. Depending on what they are crafting they may have to run some missions to make ends meet.
These 2 playstyles are completely opposite one another, yet one is the customer and the other is the supplier, this situation _shouldnt_ be a problem _if_ the crafter, at some point, is able to relieve the powergamer of his cash suplus
But this is where it all falls down - The Bazaars 3k limit, coupled with a high number of players in the artisan space, few low level 'renewable' demand items for artisans andrampant undercutting have meant that the customer gets a great deal (and gets to keep his cash suplus) and most crafters (the ones that didnt grind to get to the elite professions first) having a reallyhard time holding it together (before we start talking about the maint bug and mobs camping installations)
The solution is very simple - charge more - the problem is that the Bazaar puts a cap on how far you can take this, and it only takes a single crafter to undercut and start the downward spiral again, I believe that it was intended that we charge more than we currently do.
Personally I think the situation will work by attrition (I'm not saying if I agree with this) - those that have the time to run the missions, or can find the market to make the money will survive and possibly prosper. Those that cant will either quit the profession, or accept a slower crafting pace (using sampling and the bazaar)
But that doesnt mean we can withstand a mission reward nerf or a maint price hike
Charging more will never happen, people will always undercut the compitision. Currently people are selling items for much less than it costs them to make. The fact that they are getting exp is all these people need to justify the loss of money.
One of the largest problems with economy at present is the cost of resources. They are much higher than they need to be. On most of the servers I've played around on resources go for anywhere from 5-1 to 10-1 ratio as the average. It should only cost the miner 1-1 to harvest these resources but it doesn't for a few reasons.
First reason people charge so much for resources is becuase of lack of time to play and/or laziness. Most people place their extractors on low percentages becuase they don't want to walk far to gather resources and are unwilling to invest alot of time in finding good percentages. This raises the ratioresouce mining costsas many people are only getting 1/2 or 1/3 of what is capable from thier harvesters.
Another problem stems from the, "do it yourself," attitude. People who try and gather all of their own resources end up spreading their harvesters out over great areas, sometimes even multiple planets, just to get what they need for their proffession. These people the sell what little surplus they have for much more becuase of the great amount of time invested, making them believe their resources are worth more.
The third and final reason resources cost too much at currect is greed. People see the high prices others are charging and figure they can make a killing if they do the same, and they do. These are people who do take the time to find areas where they can get a 1-1 cost and then turn around and make a 500% profit of of it. I admit that I am partially guilty of this but I sell at 3-1, only a 300% profit. The bonus of what I do is that I move my product faster, really fast in fact, and it hopely inspires others to be competitive, allowing me to drom my prices again.
The fact is though, if the first 2 problems didn't excist, the third wouldn't. If people would bother to mine on 80% or more and concentrait on 1 or maybe 2 resources, the economy would eventually balance out and resources would get cheaper and cheaper. To run a good mining outfit you don't even need to do all the work. Hire some one to track resource shifts and good concetrations for you. And you don't have to do it yourselves becuase if everyone picks one or two things to mine, they'll have alot more surplus and so will you. Meaning you can sell to them and they can sell to you, or just trade!!!
One thing that I'ld like to see that would help this greatly is a shipping feature added to the bazaar. Why can't we have the GPS(Galactic Postal Service) bring us our goods from where ever we buy them for a fee? Maybe 5% of what you paid for same planet and 10% for off planet. Maybe it could even take some time for your order to arrive. This would greatly increase intergalactic trade, which at the moment barely exists, and thus promote a more stable economy.
Well, I've gone on long enough. Everyone try and help out the economy in anyway you can think of. Throw away your greed and try and stabalize. Gaining profit would be alot more fun if there was a real competitive market, instead of one were things get sold for less than cost.
Oten the Wookiee
Master Artisan - Miner
Sunrunner
Powerups (and I suppose food) are one of the few sustainable low end items - however when I was down in that item space I had trouble even giving them away (let along charging for them) most players didnt know what they were, what they did or how to use them.
Hawking them on the street corner was the only way to move them (because you spent more time educating than selling) and I only ever had 1 guy specifically come back for more (and he wouldnt pay second time around) so either people dont mind living without them or there is enough supply on the bazaar to satify the demand
Personally I was expecting the bone armour market to last longer than it did, everyone seemed to hit it about the same time and prices crashed almost overnight. But no ones bothering to repair it or replace it because they are moving on to the better armour types (because their prices did the same thing as bone) before it needs replacing/repairing
I disagree with the resources assesment.
First of all, resources are cheaper on my server. Perhaps you've been looking at the bazaar? If so you can find cheaper if you talk to suppliers. I get my stuff for 3 cr a unit.
Beyond that, I don't think your point regarding the cost of production is valid. SWGCRAFT tells us that it's quite cheap to gather resources, around .6 cr a unit. Even if you're on a poor concentration, it won't get much higher than 1. Given that even on my server bulk order are 3, you can see that miners aren't having a problem making a profit at these prices, and could easily afford to go lower.
As for your second point, there's a lot of people who mine and don't really do much crafting. Some are combat classes looking for a little extra boost. Others are artisans who can't sell their stuff. Others are dedicated miners (they are out there.) Maybe you haven't found these folks.
The third point is not greed. It's called market forces. The fact of the matter is there's one reason resources prices are this high. Demand supports it. I was a miner for a while, and guess what? All my stuff sold. I charged 3 cr or more.
Demand is high due to grinders and high level crafters having their lots tied up with factories and houses. Supply is low because there's few dedicated miners. This equals high price. That's all there is too it, and I don't really have a problem with it. What I hear sounds like a bunch of "miners are too expensive, it's not fair" nonsense.
The solution to the problem is crafters need to sell their goods for 5cr a unit or more. This won't happen though because exp is tied to production.
Ultimately only the high level items, for which the people who can make them don't have to worry about experience, will ever have a reasonable economy for them.
One of the biggest issues is the fact that crafters who are grinding are just dumping stuff in order to make any money they can. I don't see much quality stuff for sale, mostly just junk. Once all these grinders hit master, they won't be giving their stuff away for free.
I also see low end markets in places becomming more stable. I can sell nearly any artisan item at a reasonable profit to myself. All the grinders have moved on past the artisan tree, so only the newbie people and true crafters who which to actually make quality items are left to meet demand.
I really don't think there's anything to worry about. From an artisan sense this economy has a solid foundation. Resource prices are high right now because everyone's training. This will change big time. The thing about resources is that artisans need them, but they also make them. Imagine what would happen to the pistol market if pistoleers could make their own pistols. So if all the artisans are hoping to sell their surplus resources, whats going to happen? They aren't likely to able to.The cost of resources will plummet in a few months, when folks have decided whether or not they want to be crafters.Not every crafter will have time to run a series of harvestors, but that's going to be a small market.
The reason why people undercut the market on things is usually because they have less tolerance forthe time it takes tosell. If my harvestors are going to go down today if I don't sell, I *have* to lower my price. Period. XP points do have value to the crafter and can contribute to accepting a lower price, so for a master crafter who doesnt need xp to compete, he must make stuff the noobs can't make as well. I really don't see an overall problem, although if people fail to predict the market, they'll be hurtin, and naturally they'll complain that the market is broke because they can't sell their ore. But it isn't broke, it's well and good. Just because a particular player can't function in the market, doesn't mean the market's broken.
I disagree that resource prices will crash.
The thing you have to keep in mind is that higher level schematics require more resources. Also, you only have 10 lots. Low level guys fill those up with harvestors, but high level guys need factories, stores etc. Master crafters have a hard time supplying themselves.
Speaking from my point of view, when I sold stuff most of it went to the masters. High level architects, weaponsmiths etc. who obviously just don't have the lots to do it themselves.
I am a Master Weaponsmith. I own a Medium House (2 lots...my elite weaponry shop), 4 Heavy Harvesters, and 4 Factories.
I place my Heavies on the resource type I need the most (I specialize in Melee weaponry, so I'm usually going after some very good steel) at the moment.
However, I need about 10 different "rare" resources, and a handful of other resources besides my "main" stuff. For example, a Ryyk Blade takes 42 Iron and 12 Polymer. Sure, I pull up Iron by the bucketloads, but I still need to get Polymer from SOMEWHERE.
Hence, I HAVE to buy resources from someone. I have to give someone else a listing of things I need, and have them supply me.
There really is no way to be self-sufficient as a Master-level crafter.
Oh, and by the way...a Master Architect requires about 20K resources per Master-level structure he builds...Large Houses, Heavy Harvesters, etc. For a PA Hall, it's about 50K resources. AND, he MUST have a Factory in operation, because a lot of his items require factory-made parts. PLUS, he needs a house for himself to store all his stuff (which amounts to plenty of "stuff" for most crafters). So, 7 lots won't cut it for him...he's gonna need more.
Anyway, you're on the right track about people needing to charge more. However, the resource market isn't going to crash. It's consumable, and highly necessary. It's going nowhere. 3-5 credits per unit is a decent price for most resources.
