Artisan Archive
Thread: State of the economy = Charge more!!!!!
I think one of the keys to market stabilization is a greater degree of specialization. Instead of every artisan harvesting resources, they should make contacts with players who specialize in resource harvesting. And instead of harvestors trying to get a little bit of every resource they can find (copper, steel, ore, iron, aluminum, gemstone, etc.), each harvestor should specialize in one to three types of resources.
Imagine a resource harvestor running 10 heavy mineral harvestors on a decent concentration of a mineral, say copper. That would produce hundreds of thousands of units of copper in a week for pennies per unit. Working this way a miner could sell copper for say 2 credits/unit on the bazaar and 1.5 cr/unit to bulk customers and still make a stinking huge amount of credits.
Then crafters could concentrate on using their lots to conduct their professions instead of having to be miners too because resources are so expensive on the bazaar. Think about it, IRL do architects go out to the wilderness and harvest their own ore and wood to build houses? No, of course not. Architects specialize in designing a structure, then construction workers build it according to the architects plan. The construction workers get their materials from other companies that specialize in selling lumber or concrete, who in turn get their materials from specialists who 'harvest' the lumber and materials that go into making concrete, etc, etc. etc.
Obviously we can't achieve this level of specialization in SWG, but a higherdegree of specialization will help to stablize the economy. I think with time this will happen, provided there are enough players who stick with the game to keep population levels up.
Well, just my 2-creds worth.
Slim Vargo, Corbantis, Mos Eisley
Cephalo master craftsmen don't HAVE 10 lots of harvestors either.
A house is 2 lots. You'll need one to set up a shop.
A factory is a lot. Most of the high level crafters have more than 1.
So that leaves 5-6 lots for harvestors. Given how many resources are in schematics that's not enough.
ajm317 wrote:
The third point is not greed. It's called market forces. The fact of the matter is there's one reason resources prices are this high. Demand supports it. I was a miner for a while, and guess what? All my stuff sold. I charged 3 cr or more.
ajm317 wrote:
I disagree with the resources assesment.
First of all, resources are cheaper on my server. Perhaps you've been looking at the bazaar? If so you can find cheaper if you talk to suppliers. I get my stuff for 3 cr a unit.
That's nice for you that you get your stuff for 3 cr per unit but most people pay 5 cr per unit and when you're talking thousands of resources there is a huge difference in price. I charge 3 cr, with current demand I do believe thatis a reasonable price.
ajm317 wrote:
Beyond that, I don't think your point regarding the cost of production is valid. SWGCRAFT tells us that it's quite cheap to gather resources, around .6 cr a unit. Even if you're on a poor concentration, it won't get much higher than 1. Given that even on my server bulk order are 3, you can see that miners aren't having a problem making a profit at these prices, and could easily afford to go lower.
I don't know how these numbers were came to, costs can be more or less depending on if you harvest all of you energy, only some of it or none. And as a miner I know there is a HUGE difference in the amount of resources pulled from a 90% spot and a 30% spot but the cost to run and maintain the harvesters is the same, so the cost does increase. I try and promote the economy and buy my energy from some one else, plus I'm a lazy miner and don't like to check alot of different spots.
ajm317 wrote:
As for your second point, there's a lot of people who mine and don't really do much crafting. Some are combat classes looking for a little extra boost. Others are artisans who can't sell their stuff. Others are dedicated miners (they are out there.) Maybe you haven't found these folks.
I am a dedicated miner. You have mis understood what I was getting at. I wasn't directing my post at people who are miners, I directed it at the people who don't take time to mine well and the people who spreed them out too thin.
I understand what you are saying here, it's the simple law of suply and demand. The more resources are needed, the more people can charge for them. However, a profit of 500% or higher is greedy in my opinion. There is no need for the miner to make a 500% profit. I make a 300% profit and that's still more than enough to satisfy my needs. I buy stuff for all of my friends. My room mate calls me his sugar daddy... kind of disturbs me. In essence I think you get the main point of what I was saying though, that, becuase of the exp need, people will always sell their low end goods for less. We may disagree on how to fix things but at least we can agree that something is wrong.
ajm317 wrote:
The third point is not greed. It's called market forces. The fact of the matter is there's one reason resources prices are this high. Demand supports it. I was a miner for a while, and guess what? All my stuff sold. I charged 3 cr or more.
EdOWar wrote:
Imagine a resource harvestor running 10 heavy mineral harvestors on a decent concentration of a mineral, say copper. That would produce hundreds of thousands of units of copper in a week for pennies per unit. Working this way a miner could sell copper for say 2 credits/unit on the bazaar and 1.5 cr/unit to bulk customers and still make a stinking huge amount of credits.
I'm finding that this is the way to go. I tried using a harvestor on all of the really good resources and I ran myself silly. I now have all my harvestors within 1000 meters of each other and life is much better.
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I think one of the keys to market stabilization is a greater degree of specialization. Instead of every artisan harvesting resources, they should make contacts with players who specialize in resource harvesting. And instead of harvestors trying to get a little bit of every resource they can find (copper, steel, ore, iron, aluminum, gemstone, etc.), each harvestor should specialize in one to three types of resources.
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I can only comment as a mid level crafter (e.g.master artisan,weaponsmithing Firearms 1 and Techniques 3) working my way up the food chain. Right now I harvest 95% of the resources I consume. I simply can't afford to pay the current prices for resources (3-5 credits/unit) where I am at (Corellia). Obviously some are able to and do since the resources move. I've obviously not found the formula for supporting crafting and grinding in that format.
I am estimating that I am about 1 credit/unit from wind power. Combined with my maintenance expense on personal harvestors, that puts me at about 1 credit per unit of resource gathered on my own. Please, these are estimates on my part so no flames about my calculations. I saved my pennies and got a solar power generator up two nights ago. I am estimating this will cut my power costs by about 1/2 to 1/3. When I am in the middle of crafting or grinding, I have been know to grab a small supply off the bazaar to finish up what I am doing. With the crafting nerfs, I get maybe two - threesaleable items out of 5. I lose money right now on what I can sell. Combine that with grinding and I am dumping credits down a well.
I can only get about 3-5 hours of play in a day. Now, I still enjoy doing what I do (hard to believe, ain't it). If someone has a formula (at the level of crafter I am at) for surviving at 3-5 credits per resource, please share. I'd love to hear about it and try it.
Cephalo wrote:
EdOWar wrote:
Imagine a resource harvestor running 10 heavy mineral harvestors on a decent concentration of a mineral, say copper. That would produce hundreds of thousands of units of copper in a week for pennies per unit. Working this way a miner could sell copper for say 2 credits/unit on the bazaar and 1.5 cr/unit to bulk customers and still make a stinking huge amount of credits.
I'm finding that this is the way to go. I tried using a harvestor on all of the really good resources and I ran myself silly. I now have all my harvestors within 1000 meters of each other and life is much better.
I now have roughly 30 harvesters/wind generators that I maintain and they're fairly close together. The wind generators are on a decent concentration away from the harvesters, but not far enough that it's a pain in the butt to get to. All of my steel harvesters are clumped together and I'm pulling up about 25k a day of some high-quality steel. That gives me enough to sell AND grind.
And I agree with your numbers. It's roughly .6 credits per unit so I sell bulk orders (and by bulk I don't mean 1-2k - we're talking 80k units) at 2cr/unit
People who are losing money on harvesters are doing something wrong.
I try to base my prices on a simple formula of 4 credits per resource used. Last night I made my first house and based on that forumla on the would cost 13,152 so I put it on my vendor at 13k. I sold it but I also got a nasty tell from someone who says it was way overpriced and not worth more then 6k.
I try and be fair with my prices and I only sell the best of my items. I don't flood anything on the bazarr. I try to stick to things that will be useful with the exception of my food which I do sell everything I make.
I do buy resources when Iam short and normally pay about 4 credits per. I shop around to get the best deal and I don't pay above 5 credits per.
There is always going to be someone who insists things are not worth X amount of credits. They is always going to be someone who undercuts everyone around them ina quest for credits. I plan on sticking to my principles and selling at a fair price for good quality items. I have customers who return to me for items because they like how I run my shop.
We'll have to wait and see what the future brings and go from there 
It sounds to me that you're still in the grinder phase. For me, I'm still going from the big jump after engineeringIV, and almost all my income comes from the resources I don't have time to grind. I have 4 personal harvestors and two windgenerators, and I made 17k(gross)the last two daysselling resources. I feed those things about 5k a day I suppose, including harvestrent lost due to resource shifts. Those were good days though, early on I had to do missions to get through the various unforseen circumstancesthat arose.My assets are growing slowly, but since I've had some financial padding, I've done much better, because you may go a few days where nothing sells.
Permethrin wrote:
I can only get about 3-5 hours of play in a day. Now, I still enjoy doing what I do (hard to believe, ain't it). If someone has a formula (at the level of crafter I am at) for surviving at 3-5 credits per resource, please share. I'd love to hear about it and try it.
"That's nice for you that you get your stuff for 3 cr per unit but most people pay 5 cr per unit and when you're talking thousands of resources there is a huge difference in price. I charge 3 cr, with current demand I do believe thatis a reasonable price."
Well, I can only speak from my own experience, but the most I pay for bulk is 3.5. Like I said the bazaar is MUCH more expensive, but maybe it's just my server.
"I don't know how these numbers were came to, costs can be more or less depending on if you harvest all of you energy, only some of it or none. And as a miner I know there is a HUGE difference in the amount of resources pulled from a 90% spot and a 30% spot but the cost to run and maintain the harvesters is the same, so the cost does increase. I try and promote the economy and buy my energy from some one else, plus I'm a lazy miner and don't like to check alot of different spots."
The numbers were derived from the swgcraft.com harvestor calculator (wasn't working when last I checked.) But they're no secret. .6 assumes a reasonable resource density and that you make your own power at a 50% concentration with a wind generator (yes power is included in the calculation.) I did provide a range though and as a I said, unless you're on a very poor density it doesn't get much higher than 1. You may check the tool if you like when it's working. This does not include the costs of redeeding, or buying another harvestor, however I suspect these costs are minimal in the grad scheme. They may hurt at the time they occur, but over the long haul I doubt that they have much impact.
"I understand what you are saying here, it's the simple law of suply and demand. The more resources are needed, the more people can charge for them. However, a profit of 500% or higher is greedy in my opinion."
According to normal economic theory, we NEED to be greedy for an economy to work. If we are making 500% profit off of resources then presumably more people will see this and join the bandwagon, eventually lowering prices. Another possibility is production will increase as more people move from personals to mediums etc. If this doesn't happen, well then miners will just be really wealthy, and is that SO bad?
"In essence I think you get the main point of what I was saying though, that, becuase of the exp need, people will always sell their low end goods for less. We may disagree on how to fix things but at least we can agree that something is wrong."
Gives me that warm fuzzy feeling.
I think some of thecomments on this thread have beena little short-sighted, and misses a lot of the overhead in the miner trade. First of all, I really like the idea of having 10 heavy mineral harvesters running on a decent concentration of copper. Then that guy can just rake it in, right? Whuy would he be charging up to 3 creds (gasp!) for his resources? Well, for one thing he's probably got close to 1.5 million creds in those ten harvesters.Plus, unless he's exclusively trading in minerals, he's probablygot a lot ofother chemical, flora or water vapor harvesters. He could easily have something approaching 5 million creds inequipment. That's a factor! No business model can look at past expenses as simply a sunken cost. That's being recouped from every sale.
Also, finding high-quality materials is a big time-sink for miners. Once your resources shift, you better plan for at least one gameday to get yourself up and running again on a new site. It can take even longer if all you have are harvesters for one type of resource (i.e. if that miner didn't have those other chem, water or flora harvesters).I keep a list, by resource type, of all resources needed by high-level shematics and which stats are needed for each use. If I see that neutronium steel has spawned on planet x, I consult it to see what it's used for and what stats matter. I can pull all the crap copper I want, but if it's not close to 900 conductivity, it's not worth my time. The only thing I can do with that stuff is dump it to a grinding w/smith, who isn't planning on selling his grinds anyway. He's probably struggling for resources and cash, and my kids aren't going through college on what he can pay.
I charge for my time. At the end of the day, I'm not looking just to cover the costs of my harvesters. I'm looking to build a business. To do so, you've got to make more than 300% profit, no matter what you make. You want a prrofessional operation, you've got to have cash behind it. I'll never be in a price war with that guy shout-selling 3k steel in the cantina for 2 creds apiece. He's an opportunistic dealer, nothing more. Master weaponsmiths don't run around cities shout-asking for 3k steel. I'm the guy the master weaponsmith will ask when he needs 100k quality copper. He knows I've only got the good stuff and I've got lots of it - his hunt for resources is over in ten minutes, even if he pays 7-10 creds per. He can start manufacturing and still make a handsome profit using his skills.
The economy is perfectly fine =) except if your a low level crafter going through the exp grind. All the crafters complaining that resources are too high, or that they can't sell anything just have to live with it. Think of it as paying your dues to becoming a master. The people who are masters paid dues in their own ways. Some had entire PA's supporting them, they now owe lots of favors. Some had alliances. Some just spent 20 hours a day playing. All the master crafters had to pay in some way shape or form to become what they are now. The low level crafters are complaining because they aren't masters yet. The game has only been out for a little more then a month now. If your becoming a crafter to build yourself and friends weapon then you should mind taking the time to slowly increase your skill. If your trying to become a crafter because your trying to be rich and powerful, well then you have no right to complain.
Just to let you know, I'm a miner. I run a mining corporation. Currently running 130 harvestors 30 windmills 20 chems, 10 flora, and 10 water. Yes I make a crap load of money. My avg price is probably 4cr a unit. Yes I realize how cheap it is for the actual cost of running harvs are. (one of the reasons I became a miner.) I burn thru 100k-180k cr a day on maintance. The part that no one sees is the value of time. I currently have 4 major areas where all the harvestors are. They are 1000-3000m away from any city. The combined total time for getting to every harvestor is 7hrs a day. luckily I have friends and we hit different locations every day. Then also consider when the resources shift. We have to MOVE atleast 90% of those harvestors. Thats after the hours of looking for the best spots.
My contribution to the economy. I pay people to rent out their slots. I pay people to deliver things for me. I pay people finder fees for resource locations. I buy my harvestors. (I could make them but it takes time) I tip entertainers. And I pay good amounts to medics that heal me. (they have a right to complain.)
In my opinion the economy will correct itself. It will just take longer then a month!
Chex
Kauri Server
CFO - McKegg Industries "Where your money is our money"
"I think some of the comments on this thread have been a little short-sighted, and misses a lot of the overhead in the miner trade. First of all, I really like the idea of having 10 heavy mineral harvesters running on a decent concentration of copper. Then that guy can just rake it in, right? Whuy would he be charging up to 3 creds (gasp!) for his resources? Well, for one thing he's probably got close to 1.5 million creds in those ten harvesters. Plus, unless he's exclusively trading in minerals, he's probably got a lot of other chemical, flora or water vapor harvesters. He could easily have something approaching 5 million creds in equipment. That's a factor! No business model can look at past expenses as simply a sunken cost. That's being recouped from every sale. "
If you're using heavies, it's because you've ALREADY made enough from mining to buy them in the first place. Obviously if you made this much before, you'll easily make that much again now that you have more production. Besides, much of the minerals on the market come from personal harvestors, whose upfront cost is comparable with such objects as spices and weapon powerups. Your figure of 5 million credits of equipment is dubious at best unless the person has access to more than 10 lots, and why would you have harvestors you're not using? That just makes no sense. If you want it forconvenience that's your right, but don't cite it as an inherent cost in the businees. Don't blame us for the fact you have equipment in mothballs.
"Also, finding high-quality materials is a big time-sink for miners. Once your resources shift, you better plan for at least one gameday to get yourself up and running again on a new site. It can take even longer if all you have are harvesters for one type of resource (i.e. if that miner didn't have those other chem, water or flora harvesters). I keep a list, by resource type, of all resources needed by high-level shematics and which stats are needed for each use. If I see that neutronium steel has spawned on planet x, I consult it to see what it's used for and what stats matter. I can pull all the crap copper I want, but if it's not close to 900 conductivity, it's not worth my time. The only thing I can do with that stuff is dump it to a grinding w/smith, who isn't planning on selling his grinds anyway. He's probably struggling for resources and cash, and my kids aren't going through college on what he can pay."
You have in game kids?
Anyway, yes there is time involved in finding more resources, that comes with the business. You're already charging 3-5 times more than what it costs to produce it if you're selling at 3 cr a unit. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you're charging too much, I think that the price is fair, but have you ever tried to hand produce 300 weapon powerups? Or kill 50,000 kreetles to get rifle specialist?
"I charge for my time. At the end of the day, I'm not looking just to cover the costs of my harvesters. I'm looking to build a business. To do so, you've got to make more than 300% profit, no matter what you make. "
What the??? Ok NOW you've lost me. I guess if you have to make a 300% profit to do business, that puts a lot of real world businesses out of business. You know some business spend some quarters in the RED?
I think the assessment of miner overhead is relatively accurate. Your cost of production is in the ball park of .6 cr a unit. Yes there's an upfront cost for the equipment, but do to the low cost of personal harvestors the barrier of entry is quite low. Yes you have to make money to go to heavies. But once you've done that then what? You'll probably make the 1.3 million you spent on those heavies back in 1-2 weeks, maybe less. After that, you're back down to .6 cr a unit, and your cost of production stays there.
I think the price of resources is fair, because people are paying it. But don't tell me you absolutely could not go lower. You could easily go as low as 1.5 or maybe even 1 and still turn a profit, albeit a smaller one.